[BTS] Immortal shadow game - Peter of Russia

[Veshunio]

Hello dear Civfanatics!

This is my first post here, what doesn't mean I'm new here - I've been reading a lot of stuff here for quite some time. I've had a break from playing civ IV and recently I came back to this fantastic game.

I was reading various tips and guides, as well as picking up some information about game mechanics here and there. I watched some playthroughs by AbsoluteZero (former chris67132) and it was very informative as well.
I still feel I have lots to learn and I just can't seem to be able to beat some of my in-game habits. I usually struggle with the early-mid game production choices and over-build various buildings in cities. I also think that I'm too schematic with the tech-tree progress ( almost always going writing-alpha-currency).

That's why I decided to try out the shadow game. I want to be forced/persuaded to break my habits.

Normally I play on Emperor level and most of the time I'm able to beat it, had a few Imm tries, but didnt like my performance.

Game settings:

• Immortal difficulty
• Pangea
• Standard size
• No huts
• No random events
• Temperate climate
• Sea level medium
• Normal speed

I picked Peter of Russia because I wanted a civ without any super strong units/building in early game. Also I like the philo trait, but I feel I'm not skilled enough to exploit it to the full. As for the expansive, I've never considered it to be too strong, but a super-fast granaries built in the right time may grant a nice boost in the early game.

This is the starting location:

Spoiler :

I find this start to be rough. No strong food resources on land. I could theoretically settle 2W to get fish and cows, but this desert 1S hurts me. 6 water tiles which are nearly-useless hurt as well. The only production options would be cows and 2 hills. And I'd need to get early fishing. I don't like this option too much.

Russia's starting techs are mining and hunting which is a good combo because I can either go for fast AH or BW. I feel I need to use my settler to scout here. I'm tempted by the plain hills to settle, but either of them is more or less a lottery.

2S1W is a safer option I think, because it provides me with cows and many more river tiles. Its very likely going to be a strong cottage spot. If I'm super lucky, some nice resource might pop in the desert. Also I'm skipping the inland lake which IMO is good only when coastal.

I'm thinking to move my scout 2S, but I'm also thinking that I would prefer to move my settler to the PH 2S1W no matter what the scout will find there. So maybe moving the scout 1N1E would be better and possibly I'll find something super cool there, but I'm almost sure there is an east coast.

I'm also considering settling right on the desert. This way I would cover a useless tile, get both fish and cows and work on the PH on the first worker, which would kick in the EXP production bonus. I'm hoping for flood plains next to the western river as well.

The one thing I'm sure is I won't make any first move before reading an advice from someone more experienced.

I'm also not sure if the save I'm providing is a good version, but I hope it is.

Please share your thoughts, I will be very grateful for any tips and knowledge if I missed something important in my initial analysis of this situation.

Thanks in advance

 

[AcaMetis]

That desert tile is riverside, which I think means it's going to be a floodplain. Not sure if I qualify as "someone more experienced", but I don't see a better alternative to your suggestion to move the settler onto the PH 2S1W. As for the scout, I don't think it can meaningfully contribute to deciding where to send the settler, so I'd fling it 1N->1NE to start scouting, and make it come back down to scout out the area around the other PH.

 

[Fippy]

Agree with the moves you both suggested, scout can find out if you would give up something north (never know where those wet corns are ),
and after looking around the ph with your settler it's most likely that you will settle 1w of cows (giving up 1 floodplains, but looks like there will be more).
Tech choices could be difficult, but we can see about that after settling.

 

[Veshunio]

Thanks for your response

This is what got revealed by scouting:

Spoiler :

Thanks AcaMetis for your scouting suggestion, if I went just to the hill, I wouldn't see neither rice nor 1 spices.

It seems there is another Flood Plain 2S1E from the PH. I am thinking to settle right on the PH because of it. I am sacrificing the forest, but still are able to get a super fast 1st worker, because of the plain forest. It seems almost all of the tiles are river tiles as opposed to the north grasslands. The next city could go 3E and be able to work on all 3 FP cottages as well as grassland ones and switch with the capital, having access to the fish which is great. Also there is a chance of some kind of nice resource on one of the grassland river tiles to the east.

As for the north, the grassland 1S from the hill is a possible great choke point, but we will see what further scouting will bring. I want to move the scout to the rice spot first, then go to the east.

EDIT:

Ok I settled on the PH and I'm super-happy because of that!:

Spoiler :

Now I have 2 options:

1. Work plain forest, get a worker in 10 turns, research agriculture also in 10 turns, then farm 1N1W, then farm 2S1E while researching AH and then pasture pigs.
2. Work flood plains, get a worker in 12 turns and get AH in 13 turns to go straightly for the pigs.

What do you think is better?

 

[krikav]

So glad that you have left the shadows and share abit of your civ4 experience! I bet you are one of the 40+ who regularly download the NC games.

Great work so far, one thing that I think you have not mentioned is what the EXP trait gives you. If you have 4 hammers you get one for free.
So settling next to a forested PH can often be an option with a EXP leader.

1. Work plains forest, no doubt about it.

 

[AcaMetis]

I don't see anything wrong with settling the PH and putting a satellite city 3E (I question how it'll get a border pop and workboat, but that's a problem for after the darkness has been scouted). You don't even need to road the floodplains to connect it, only the grassland 1W of the capitol thanks to the river, so that'll save some worker turns. Scouting, likewise, good idea to check the rice.

Tech path I agree with AG first. Not sure whether to farm a floodplain or a grassland tile, though. Depends on how long the worker has before AH is in (assuming you're going AH after AG, personally I'm not 100% sold on it).

 

[Gumbolt]

I would be researching AH. Farms this early on add very little value. Where a 6f pigs resource is huge. Same for the cows with 3f3h. Personally I like to cottage flood plains.Skipping techs on higher levels can be a good thing.

Looks like worker will have 2 dead turns. Little value in mining ther desert hill. Takes 2 turns to reach pigs anyway.

 

[AcaMetis]

Okay, I didn't see the edit earlier, which is a shame because those Pigs are huge. With that knowledge I'm also going to suggest option 2, going AH first. Farming at least one floodplain seemed useful before since your capitol didn't look like it had a better food tile and your planned second city looked like it needed a border pop/workboat to get one, so having a farmed floodplain or two that they could share would be good, and only one (visible) tile to improve with AH makes it a pretty costly investment early on. But pigs in the capitol means you don't have to worry about farming to get powerful(-ish) food tiles. AH first, improve pigs/cow, and I think BW for chopping/slavery next.

 

[Veshunio]

Thanks! Option 2 was my favourite as well, because I felt that I'd waste many worker turns on farming then cottaging. So here is the update:

I've met my first neighbour, he is somewhere in the west:

Spoiler :

Here is the scouting update. Unfortunately my scout got killed . I've included a few locations of cities that I'm considering. The numbers are to easen the discussion, there are not the order I wanna build them.

Spoiler :

I started building a warrior and I want to send him to scout north to check if its a dead end (I think it is). Then he will stay there to prevent barbs from spawning.

I'm not sure what to research next, although BW seems legit, it should come about time when worker is done pasturing pigs and cows and he will be able to start chopping right away.

What do you think?

 

[lymond]

Nothing much to add at the moment other than to say that at least you put in some really good analytical thinking here., Vesh. Settling on the PH was absolutely the right move, regardless of Pigs which was hindsight anyway. Just a very strong starting capital here, that will eventually become a Bureau paradise. AH first right too.

BW is generally the right call. Could be a few turns of idleness I think. If horses pop up, I might consider a TW>POT or TW>FISH>POT route (depending on where you settle city 2...technically on the hill for quick access to fish is generally best, but this city has flooplains so where you have it marked now could be fine and ignore early FISH). I might do that anyway. That way city 2 could work some cottages early - and it has a lot of coverage of Moscow's tiles as a helper city.

Part of my reasoning on POT, is that you don't have a plethora of forest here...none in obvious second city. So, although one should be chopping, there's not a lot of that to do. Down sound is that whipping is delayed, but you have very strong tiles here for settler production until you can whip.

I'd wait on consensus though just to be sure, but I don't think you'd go wrong here either way BW vs. POT.

edit: and I'm an idiot..you will need either FISH or AG regardless. Maybe it is just best to go BW for now.

 

[AcaMetis]

City 4 needs to have rice in the first ring, no question. Unless you have a means to quickly secure a border pop (monument chop ready at the very least) not having a food tile within a city's first ring will really slow down it's development. Not that dry rice is great food resource, but...

I'd say settle city 1 first as suggested, and grab the PH 3E of city 1 sooner rather than later. A bit far from the capitol, but it claims the fish, it has the hammers to pump out a WB (or two) without needing to build a mine, it secures your western border with a hill city, and can claim Stone for later. Both cities can be hooked up with only one road connecting the capitol to the west river, so it's not a worker turn sink to hook it up either. City 3 or city 2 would be better for a second/third city, since they can share pig with the capitol, but those sites aren't contested, and personally I tend to prioritize contested spots over backfilling.

Tech path, assuming it won't result in a ton of lost worker turns, BW -> Wheel -> Fishing -> Pottery. It'll be a while before your worker can start to put down cottages, but given that you intend to I don't see much use in farming what's going to be cottaged anyway. Capitol has plenty of food, as do the satellite cities, so no need for agriculture until you settle the Wheat/Rice. I see 5 tiles in your capitol's BFC that you'll want a road on relatively early, so hopefully BW will keep your worker busy until the Wheel comes in. Archery would be nice for barbs if BW doesn't reveal nearby Copper, but you should be able to fogbust your north and east easily enough, and I think two warriors will be cheaper than teching Archery and building an archer for the western front.

 

[Gumbolt]

Some interesting choices here.
You need myst or writing for border pops. Early writing with philosophical can mean an early academy. So I would be tempted by writing and cottages route.
Agriculture helps but it only gains 2f1H on the wheat.
BW is useful for chopping/whipping. Delays other worker techs but allows chopping.
Wheel and fish/agriculture is needed for pottery. Early road use is not a priority. Cottages could be once you have 3-4 cities.
Pottery allows cottages and granaries.

1N of Wheat can help work cottages.
I do think you need to secure land west before the AI grab it. You met Hammy 3600bc. He is 10 travel turns from the fish. So should be pretty close.
If you build the plains hill fish site sooner you need a plan on how to build the workboat? Otherwise you can use a 1f2H forest.

Maybe agriculture/wheel/pottery/fishing?

Once settler is complete I would start a further settler. Losing the western fish site would be very bad.

 

[Fippy]

Without pigs i would have prefered settling for fish, not bad growing on fps while teching fishing.
PH got slightly lucky imo, cos the worker would be wondering why do i farm floodplains without them ~~

City #1 4w of your cap would make sense, so you need no monument urgently for 1 fish, while 2 fps can also be taken.
Wheel first should be best cos it's needed everywhere you can go.

 

[Veshunio]

Hey, thanks everyone for your contribution .

BornInCantaloup you gave me lots of confusion upon my initial plan, but I considered things very carefully and decided to go for 1N from the wheat with settling. Unfortunately settling a city 3N1W from capital excludes possibility of grabbing the rice in north within the first ring of a city there, but its not a priority and settling on PH north up there could be an option too.

So here are the facts:

• AH didn't reveal any horses
• I calculated that going for BW would make 5-6 idle worker turns
• I went for the AG
• Hammy has got a 2nd city already

And here is the update:

Spoiler :

So basically I'm sending the warrior to scout north. I'm 1 turn from finishing another one but since my cap just got to size 3, I'll start a settler right away, I can always finish the warrior in an emergency case. I decided to go for 1N from the wheat, because this city is gonna have much more impact very early on than a city 3W from cap. And it still may help growing 3 cottages.
Now going for the farm.

I know these choice mean delaying chopping and whipping, as well as more roads will be reuired, but on the other hand, the second city should be good with producing workers once it gets to size 2, thanks to EXP trait. Also farming the FP is a bit controversial to me, but this is the best option here I believe.
After the settler(8 turns) I'll finish the warrior and then most probably start the second settler to grab PH next to the fish.

Now about techs:
I think of TW - POT - FISHING because will need roads to get any bonus commerce for now. Maybe getting fishing before POT would be better though, I'm not sure how big is the bonus.
I'm a bit worried about delaying BW that much. The cap will have problems being overpopped rather soon, because I will need to get a few warriors eventually.

All the possibilites here! Thank you guys, I wouldn't think how many options out there are possible.

 

[AcaMetis]

Yeah, 5-6 wasted worker turns is way too many. If you're going to settle your second city 1N of the Wheat (a natural choice since you went for Agriculture) I would settle a city 3N1W of the capitol later to grab the other fish, and grab the rice by settling the PH. It's not ideal, but it's better to get one city with Fish and another city with (admittedly dry) Rice both in the second ring than ruining a fish in the name of getting only one city with dry rice in the first ring. The question of whether to go for Myst or Writing to get border pops will come up (I don't think Hammy is overly likely to get a religion and spread it?), but that bridge can be crossed later. You've got plenty of other stuff to tech and cities to settle first, and plenty of forests to chop in any case.

As for build order, I'm not entirely sold on delaying the warrior. Fogbusting the west is important, and that Lion to the east has me worried since I think animals will eventually despawn and that'll leave your eastern flank open for human barb spawns. The east will be fine as soon as your capitol gets it's third ring, but I wouldn't want to chance barb spawns until that point.

 

[Gumbolt]

I don't think you need that second warrior. S2 should of been great for settler. Your only gaining 1f for size 3. Also you have delayed second city by 3-4 +turns. This will have a knock on effect for 3rd city. I would of send the warrior west as you want to fogbust that new city site. Including the fish site. Your culture should take care of most tiles around your capital. At T50 you get a border pop too. 10 turns!

 

[Veshunio]

I don't think you need that second warrior. S2 should of been great for settler. Your only gaining 1f for size 3. Also you have delayed second city by 3-4 +turns. This will have a knock on effect for 3rd city. I would of send the warrior west as you want to fogbust that new city site. Including the fish site. Your culture should take care of most tiles around your capital. At T50 you get a border pop too. 10 turns!

Yeah, thanks for the insight, that's true that growing to S3 didn't help much with the Settler's production itself.
I've ran a simulation, splitting the game into the other path and I will play it alongside till T50 and then T100 to see impact of this decision.

However, I discovered that the city is delayed only by 2 turns somehow and having this additional warrior turned out to be quite helpful. I scouted north with him and this is what I've found:

Spoiler :

Not only there is no dead end, but a wild Egyptian border as well as horses appeared!

And for my home:

Spoiler :

I've finished the settler and the farm, as well as researching TW. Now I wanna finish the warrior and send him to secure western PH. Then possibly second warrior to go fogbust east and the second settler.

I'm returning my northern warrior to fogbust north as well.

For the research:
I'm thinking to go FISH before pottery, because in this time the worker will be farming wheat and connecting cap with the second city (do you know if only one road from cap to the river will do?) and I'll get the bonus to the POT. I'm not so sure about that however. Its too early for any granaries I guess, but its never too early for a first cottage.

On the second thought, the POT IS JUST 10-11 turns, so I'll go for it and should be able to start the FP cottage right away after farming wheat and building 2 roads. I also change the work for 2 plains forests to make 2 warriors in 2 turns. I'll feel much safer this way.

Thanks in advance!

 

[AcaMetis]

You'll need two roads if you settle the Wheat, which you should since you teched AG - one to connect the capitol to the western river, and one to connect your second city to that same river. Sailing claims to "enable across rivers/coast", but you only need Sailing to trade across rivers and coast that aren't within your cultural borders. This is why, if you settled 3E of your capitol, you'd only need one road to connect your capitol to the river, since from there your second city would be connected via the coast that the river flows into. Technically you could connect the Wheat city with only one road too, if you connected your capitol to the eastern river and either teched Sailing or claimed the entire southern coastline within your culture, but obviously that's not worth it over just building two roads.

 

[Gumbolt]

Extra warrior could prove useful. Still need some fog busting above your capital. So don't let that 1st warrior wander off too far.

I think finish warrior and start a new settler. New warrior should fogbust that hill for the fish city.

Egyptian or Shaka? Hopefully Egpytians. Both a similar colour.

Second city for worker? Work farmed flood plains for growth.

Pottery vs BW. Early cottages can be good. You have no obvious military resources here.

Do you road flood plains or forest? Getting wheat earlier gives you a 4f1H tile. Returning 1 production to your capital. So losing a worker turn here may be better? Roading for 3 turns seems a bad move.

Trade route vs early food and production. You already have 11 commerce so not a major issue. 1N of wheat means less roads to your hill fish city.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Yes, two roads. I suppose farming the wheat should take priority over the roading. You'll have Fishing in time, anyway.

Pottery before BW is interesting. EXP helps with building workers (less need for BW ; Moscow can train workers in 4 turns at size 4) and the lack of strong commerce tiles tips the odds towards Pottery.
Not too sure about this. You don't wanna crash your economy.

Definitely complete the warrior before starting on the next settler. Then start straight on a settler or spend 2 turns growing to 4 ? That's a question.
Would you gain 1 turn if you produced the settler at size 4 ? If you would, it might be better, you'd get more commerce.