[BTS] Immortal Shadow Game - Stalin

AlmightyBureaucrat

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Oct 24, 2016
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Another Immortal Shadow Game! (No BAT Mod this time)

Settings:
Stalin (Aggressive, Industrious)
Immortal Difficulty
Fractal
Standard/Normal
NHNE

Here's the start:

Spoiler Start :

upload_2020-9-25_22-16-51.png


Looks like SIP is obvious here with the PH. Maybe move scout 2S.

For tech path, I am thinking Agriculture first, but what next? We have nothing to do with the worker turns unless we go BW or AH. But without a river we will be pretty commerce poor...Fishing might help out, but perhaps we need more info on the surrounding land to make a decision. What do you guys think?
 

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You did pretty well last time out with a strong start. I forget much of it so not sure which areas you need to improve the most, but recall some unnecessary builds in your game like Banks..that's about it though.

Not a bad start. Wet wheat would be priority but I'd like to get at least the fish working sooner as the next best tile. Despite AG being a gimme first tech, and the Hunting bonus, I might sacrifice AH for some time here and rather go AG>BW>Fish. I think AH will just slow things down too much - could be wrong. But you have time to make a decision to see how the land and resources work out nearby.

SIP seems obvious, and that appears to be some nasty desert to the W (fps maybe doubtful), but I'm inclined here to send the Scout 2N to spy a good bit that way just in case an inland settler move looks like a good move - I generally always prefer inland if the land dictates. Moving scout 2S does nothing for T0 decision regardless.

GLH usually a good play on Fractal especially with an IND leader and likely a low commerce start.

edit: cows can be farmed early too for a decent tile
 
Very true with farmed cows, making AH an only +2:hammers: improvement.
And 1t of cow farming can be done while moving to wheat.

On deity i would delay BW here, at least until fishing.
Not so sure about Immortal where techcosts are less punishing.
Prolly still fishing first thou, i like making use of good natural production (PH..wheat..cows all give an extra :hammers:) for boats.
 
Seeing Fippy mention Fishing makes me feel better about writing down my thoughts from yesterday. May not be the best if people were to test it, but it sounds good to me.

Scout 2N to the hill, just in case something nice pops up.
Start on a worker and pick Fishing.
Switch to workboat when Fishing is in. It's out in 8 turns. Go to the Fish. "Wastes" a turn, but you make it back quickly.
Finish worker while teching Agriculture
Part-farm Cow on the way to wheat, and farm that.

AH or BW next probably depends on what is nearby, but a cow is pretty good for worker/settlers, so AH next isn't a bad option. But it can also be postponed for a while (especially if the cows are the only AH resources nearby) in favour of BW and chops, plus hopefully locating copper. Don't particularly like coastal starts, but maybe it's possible to axe-rush a close neighbour?

Probably settler at size 3 (fish, wheat, farmed/pastured cow).
 
Moving the scout 2N revealed desert and nothing worth moving for, so I SIP. It's T5 and time to choose a tech. Sounds like we have some diverging opinions here as to tech path so just wanted to pause to add a few more thoughts for some feedback.

Spoiler thoughts after T5 :

upload_2020-9-27_15-22-40.png


I was initially leaning towards Ag > BW > Fishing but am now considering Fishing before BW. The question is, Ag first or Fishing? I did not consider Fishing first until Pangaea's comment but it does seem to have some merits due to idle worker turns.

lymond: Ag > BW > Fishing
Pros: Our best tile (wet Wheat) is online by T17
Cons: After farming the Wheat and the Cow (done by T21), our worker has nothing to do for 5 turns until BW is out on ~T26.​
Fippy: Ag > Fishing
Pros: Same deal with wet Wheat being online. We can also use our 4 :hammers: from Wheat/Cow/PH City tile to construct a work boat in ~8 turns while still growing.
Cons: Much longer idle worker period since BW/AH would not come in until after ~T32.​
Pangaea: Fishing > Ag
Pros: I initially dismissed fishing first since wet Wheat is the best tile but the idle worker turns and low commerce might make this more attractive. We don't have a 3:hammers: forested PH tile for the work boat but can still get one out in 8 turns using a plains forest. Fish would be improved a turn or so earlier than the Wheat, and we'd also get the extra commerce for ~10 turns.
Cons: We do lose worker turns but it might not be such a big deal given we can't do much before BW/AH anyway. This tech path might delay the settler a few turns since we are building the work boat on a plains forest tile rather than the stronger Wheat/Farmed Cow tiles.​

Seems like a close call between Fishing or Ag first. I am currently leaning towards Fishing first. Also, unless the Cow/Ivory spot has an Ag food resource I am thinking AH before BW since we don't seem to have any attractive first Ag-based city sites to the north or west...Cow/Ivory has good production and is auto-connected for trade.

What do you guys think?

Will likely be going Settler on size 3 on Fish/Wheat/Farmed Cow.

Q: Can you go GLH into Construction attack with elephants or is it usually a choice of one or the other? We are industrious...


You did pretty well last time out with a strong start. I forget much of it so not sure which areas you need to improve the most, but recall some unnecessary builds in your game like Banks..that's about it though.

Aside from prioritizing pop growth earlier, I am trying to focus on cutting out unnecessary stuff as you mentioned and getting a quicker attack after the key military tech. I didn't think of HA > Cuir upgrades with a GM for a quicker attack in the first game so the attack was delayed by ~15 turns after unlocking Cuirs.
 
Don't think i would consider fishing before Agri, with wet wheat being 6 yield.
Farmed cows are also okay.

Also not strictly pro fishing before BW, it's more something i would likely do on deity against research holes (and with good base production before chops).
Idle worker turns are annoying but happen, however not 1 single tile with even 1:commerce: before BW can really hurt on deity :)
You are prolly fine with BW before fishing on Imm.

Side note, your backfill city actually looks like the best spot (scouting unit should check 1e).
 
Spoiler to T56 :


Tech Path: Ag > BW > Fishing > Sailing > Masonry > AH.

There's at least 5 people on our continent. Hannibal is to the West, and Joao is south beyond the jungle.

Copper pops up in the Capitol. The first city is founded on T35 at the backfill location per Fippy's suggestion. As I went BW instead of AH, I don't see any other site making sense.

I am planning to go GLH as we seem stuck on the coast with the desert to our West. 3rd city will be the Fish/Marble to the north. There are a few options for the 4th/5th cities to the south.

There is a double gold site on the peninsula but it has no :food:.

Spoiler T35 Land Situation :

upload_2020-9-28_22-42-36.png



3rd city is founded on T46 and is nicely timed with a workboat for the Fish. I will grow here before whipping a worker.

It's now T56, and I have a settler sitting on the Cow/Dye/Ivory spot but am not sure where's the best settle. Would you guys go for my coastal Cow/Dye/Ivory site, or move 1 SW for the wet Corn? I am currently planning to settle on the coast and grab the wet Corn with the Corn/Cow site to the west. That would get me an extra coastal city for GLH and not waste the Cow to the SW of the capitol. Capitol will whip a settler into the GLH so that is hopefully completed in the next few turns.

Spoiler Settling Options... :

upload_2020-9-28_22-58-19.png



A little peak at Joao-land...

Spoiler Joao's Land :


Seems like a juicy target with gems, wet corn, dyes, and lot of river. I think he's in the corner here, as that's coast SW of the Corn/Cow site. Joao's settling ruined the Gold but I suppose that isn't going to get fed anyway...is it worth settling on one of the gold with the GLH bonus while working the other at a permanent size 1? That would be 5 :hammers: 8 :commerce: from tiles plus 3-6 :commerce: from GLH at size 1.

upload_2020-9-28_23-2-4.png



I might delay the settle for a couple turns so I don't tank research for AH. Tech plan after this is Wheel > Pottery > Writing > Maths > Construction for an elephant attack on Joao. What do you guys think?

 

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The wonders of internet forums... three days of discussion whether to tech Agri or fishing first and then OP appears with t56 position in which he has two workers making Quarry instead of something productive (mine in cap would be okay - for industrious leader going for GLH, chopping third ring forests would probably be better).

On southern settler... I would probably settle on Ivory - coastal, instant happiness, has some food and eventually would work one gold.
 
Yeah... it makes the notion of a shadow / learner game kinda moot if it's done like this. 56 turns is half an eternity in the early game, half-way to 1AD.
 
I think it is more like stop then there is meaningful decision to make...

If I played I would stop at
- either after Agriculture is done, to check what scouting reveals, without map knowledge fishing/BW is a real decision (I would probably opt for fishing as for Industrious leader I would guess commerce is a bottleneck on the way to GLH)
-or after worker is done and resources are farmed (12 turns for worker, another 8 farming wheat and cows, so ~20ish).

From early points if you are settling the second city up north (which is good location), I would consider using workboat on clams 1F on fish is better than 1 coin, but food sharing is important too (I guess you can work fish from cap and half-permanently assign wheat to second city). My gut reaction towards St. Petersburg is to settle 1W and have it working clams+lake non-stop (to get any commerce going), while leaving wheat hammer for capitol, but I am not 100% sure about it.
 
Ok, rolling this back to T21 with two farms in and BW on the way. I had already picked BW due to feedback for BW over Fishing on Imm and I don't want to change too much here with the Copper knowledge.

Spoiler T21 :


BW in 5 turns. I have put in a Settler in the queue at size 2, which can be out in 8 turns with a single chop. Growing to size 3 takes 3 turns and would delay the Settler.

I've moved the 2nd city location 1W on Snowbird's suggestion, which gains a lake tile and the hill vs the prior site. It can also share the marble eventually I suppose.

Plan is to finish BW, start Fishing, and chop a boat for the Clam first (to share). We should have enough production to get the Fish online shortly thereafter. Any other thoughts?

upload_2020-9-30_1-36-16.png


 

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I'd probably grow instead of doing settler at size two. You could really use extra warrior for fogbusting and whipping would allow to recover hammers. Not sure upper city is worth anything without fishing - I tried got about T33 settler T34 workboat with one chop and copper mine - slowbuilding at size 3 is probably better. (at least allows to svalery switch while settler is on the run saving anarchy turn for city number two - as it is making it's move in the form of the settler)

Overall having 40% of food filled while starting settler is not a good idea unless there are specific reasons and I don't see any (without fishing I don't think you can get the trade routes).

Well, the spoiled copper mine - that tile clearly suggested some resource from the start - likely something like iron, copper, horse, maybe uranium.

Northern warrior is also doing absolutely nothing, all land tiles are visible due to cap culture, barb galleys don't spawn that early I would move him towards 3? mark and I would finish extra warrior in cap (would try grow on barracks after that probably).

So, my best advice - get two warriors (one existing and one nearly done) in fogbust positions, grow to size three, make the resource mine, slowbuild the settler.
Not sure what I would build after settler+WB, another worker maybe (another settler+WB?)? However it would not be a bad place to stop after settler is done.
 
Great advice from Snowbird.

Just a minor point - not sure I agree with your reasoning for going clams first. Second city can already take wheat and cows if necessary, so not sure how much value a third shared tile has vs one more food for fish.

I’d also probably swap the order of cities 3/4 (and maybe even delay 3 further once you get to that decision point)? Extra happy from Ivory will likely help more and city 4 claims more land / opens more options.
 
I'd be in favor of going for the two southern cities as 3. and 4. cities as well. Much better cities than the northern one. They are rather far away though and as such hard to defend and expensive initially though.
 
Spoiler to T32 :

I grew to size 3 as suggested and slow built the Settler. Chop saves 1 turn but then delays the WB so I think I will get the same result as Snowbird (WB out with a chop right after Settler). Paused 1 Turn before Settler is done due to having a tech choice here. I am thinking Sailing for GLH but could see AH if site 4 is to be settled next. Any other contenders?

For next builds, I am thinking double Work Boat > Settler. First WB moves to the Fish while we switch to Slavery, and we can grow while building the second WB. The next Settler can benefit from another power tile. I'm thinking another Worker here is overkill as we don't have much to improve and the chops might be best spent on GLH (which is not available anytime soon). On the other hand, another Settler would decrease :science: which is also a bottleneck.

I am thinking instead of whipping the next worker in City #2 at size 2 instead.

upload_2020-9-30_23-49-29.png



Overall having 40% of food filled while starting settler is not a good idea unless there are specific reasons and I don't see any (without fishing I don't think you can get the trade routes).

Yeah, I was contemplating starting the settler a turn earlier when the food bar was at 2/24 but that would have been an 11 turn worker (only 9:hammers: before Cow Farm is done) so it actually would not save any turns!

On trade routes - you do get them even without Fishing if you are connected by sea/river within your own culture.

Northern warrior is also doing absolutely nothing, all land tiles are visible due to cap culture, barb galleys don't spawn that early I would move him towards 3? mark and I would finish extra warrior in cap (would try grow on barracks after that probably).

Yes, that warrior was checking out the fogged tile NW of the Capitol for seafood but is on its way to #3!
 

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Why waste a forest in the north though? I'd go 1E for sure.
 
Why waste a forest in the north though? I'd go 1E for sure.

Hmm that was my initial spot but Snowbird suggested 3N instead for the lake tile. You'd also gain an irrigated grassland, Marble, and the grass hill. Is that not worth losing the forest?
 
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Not a huge deal I suppose. On the hill has instantly two green tiles for cottages. While they are mediocre tiles, marble and hill are not really better. Thus I'd rather save the forest and collect 20:hammers:.
 
Not sure 20H in second city does much for any sort of big strategy (GLH probably, maybe phantstomp on someone). Getting marble in second ring allows to delay upper fishing city/village pretty much indefinitely as that spot does not have much to offer besides fish. If that 20h could apply to capitol's lighthouse or GLH it would be different story.

Spoiler :

I've tried fishing before BW - got 55turn GLH with three cities, just one worker, but second city was size 4 so could whip second.
 
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