Immortal Shadow Game - Suryavarman II of Khmer

[sampsa]

Things are certainly good! T60 comments

Spoiler :

You need to road to an AI asap, it's +1 every city and from Bella the possibility of a religion spread.

I don't know - can I just keep growing and whipping things until I get my cottages up? Surely at some point I need to let this stacked settle down a bit?

Yes, cottages are urgent (I was working 4 fp cottages T60). How do you plan to settle down the unhappiness? Just keep growing and don't worry about it. Your -res are coming online, maybe you can trade for -res, maybe you can get a religion. If not, then your cities are unhappy, so what? Again, you can turn the pop to 30 later.

I've got workers connecting up the fur and pig, and my first ivory just came online. I've also got a couple on the way south to hook up copper. After that, I believe it's time to start spamming cottages - FP first, then riverside grassland.

Yes you are late on the cottages, but no worries. Dunno if that copper was so urgent? Do you need to build copper units now?

Improving the other two ivory seems like a good idea. I may want to trade it. I don't usually trade away resources that can be used to make units, but it should be harmless until the AI gets Construction, shouldn't it?

Yes you should improve them, but cottages are more urgent. I wouldn't worry about AI ability to build troop x. It doesn't generally matter.

Ivory City will struggle with food (maxxing out before it hits the happy cap even) unless I give it some farms, or work grass tiles. I'm not entirely sure what is the best way to manage that, so I'm open to suggestions.

I built more farms. I didn't build a library there, but no biggie either way I think.

I want to settle two more cities out of force of habit, but my brain is telling me that neither are a good idea. There's a spot in the NE, probably on the coast, to grab the silver. It will be a rubbish city whose sole purpose is to provide +1 to the rest of the empire. The other spot is in the SE, between the gold and the horses. Again, no food here at all, but it will get me happy gold, plus, the horses I want to run over the top of all my neighbours and begin my dominion of the whole world!!!!

Don't settle more cities out of habit. Now you need to think where you are taking this game. To me, construction war seems like the most obvious choice, which means no more settling. The suggested sites are very weak and it's very late for horse wars (well unless wait for cuirs).

Sampsa was right. Ivory City and the Capital were connected after only one border pop.

This is confusing me because that river loops outside my borders, and the Capital isn't even connected to it. How?

It's connected because the game only checks if it's a river tile. Adjacent river tiles are connected.

I put Fishing as a placeholder, and meant to change it. I'm not convinced that's my most urgent tech. At this point, I usually start heading towards currency, but for some reason my economy hasn't crashed yet, and I haven't even started building cottages yet, so maybe there's no rush.

Other options that look good are Mathematics and Masonry -> Construction. Oh, and I need HBR for my UU, don't I? So maybe I should be thinking about an Elepult expansion?

I went fish-math-mas-constr-HBR, but it's not the only way. You can also consider skipping fishing which would allow you to bulb machinery-engineering -line later, something that I'd very much like to do but thought about it too late.

Oh, and I've got tech trading on, so I should also be thinking about something that I can trade for (most of) alphabet at some point. I usually use Aesthetics, but Currency works too.

In general, no. Don't get distracted just because you could get something via trade. Do you even need alphabet or currency? Pick a strategy and execute it. If the strategy is to keep teching (cuirs?) then you can go currency. But if you go construction war, don't go here and there in the tech tree. Go straight to the things you need.

 

[sampsa]

T60

Spoiler :

6 workers. Have fishing already and library in cap. Disappointed that no missionaries from Bella and no autospread. Even Joao got an autospread... No -res trade.

Joao blocked the good cow+copper+fish -spot. Annoyed that I didn't stop to think and just kill the fish, never tech fishing. The point is to bulb mach+engi which is now not possible. Also copper might've been a bit useful, just to build some axes. Ok, now I'll build some extra warriors to go along with phants and cats.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Is it ok to chop into fail gold?

Spoiler T70 :

I've got granaries and libraries everywhere, and barracks almost everywhere. I've got nothing useful to build. I did just get my copper up, so I could start churning out axes (and even the occasional spear), but I'm worried about unit maintenance if I start down that road. Or I could build walls everywhere, but that feels even more wasteful.

No one has built the Mids or the GW yet, so two cities at least can be doing something useful for a while. I have no idea what to do with the rest of them for the next X turns (9 for maths, 14 for HBR, 24 for Construction = 47 turns at current commerce levels ). Obviously, that number will change as I bring more cottages online and they mature, but it's still a long time to tread water in the cities.

 

[sampsa]

Spoiler :

Yes you can put towards axes but don't finish them if/since they cost you . Fail golding GW is also pretty good, maybe even for a chop since it speeds your attack date. In general 1 to 1 is not that great though. In my game GW was gone and since most of the cities have libraries I just ran scientists. Yes it's in general not great to run random specialists because they are -negative, but -cap is crap and you need to maximize . What my workers did was pre-chop forests after I had all the cottages I needed.

 

[antimony]

Construction rush prep

Spoiler :

If you ran out of things to build it indicates focusing too much on production instead of commerce (cottages). After initial expansion phase, I wouldn't rush to whip buildings, EXP granary is only one chop and only library needs whipping, and wait until you're passing happy cap. Barracks is slow built unless you're near the attack time.

Also like @sampsa said above you can run scientists to stay just under happy cap, but then pass it and whip immediately when construction is ready.

On immortal elephants are good for a rather long time, sometimes up to 500 AD, so don't worry on not making the timeline I mention below, but it's good as a reference.

My usual guidelines for construction on a reasonably good land is to complete math on T70 and construction on T80, then start turning out catapults while researching HBR. Here slow building axes and not completing them is ok.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

don't worry on not making the timeline I mention below, but it's good as a reference.

I'm glad you said this, because I'm 16 turns behind...

Spoiler Turn 86 :

Just finished Construction and I'm 7 turns away from HBR. Most of the remaining forests in my empire have been pre-chopped. I've sent a warrior to get a feel for Stalin's territory. I guess the next question is: what size/composition of army do I need to take him out quickly? He is currently fighting Washington, so I assume that means he has a stack somewhere. I'll scout out the border between him and America to see if I can find it.

I also have the option of switching to the Spanish religion. Is there any reason not to do that immediately?

And finally, I can see Joao's research. Should I switch my focus to someone else?

 

[sampsa]

war prep stuff

Spoiler :

I guess the next question is: what size/composition of army do I need to take him out quickly?

Novgorod would be insta +1 (great settle choice by Stalin btw, who said AI was stupid?) so you want to take it asap IMO. 6 cats and 6 guys should be easily enough. Elephants can join when you push to Moscow.

Btw I'm proud it was obvious for you that Stalin is the first target.

I also have the option of switching to the Spanish religion. Is there any reason not to do that immediately?

Yes there is. It delays the and by 1T. Consider whether it's better to switch now or on the turn you attack.

And finally, I can see Joao's research. Should I switch my focus to someone else?

IMO in general, no. He might raise the slider at some point and you don't gain much by switching anyway.

 

[sampsa]

T77

Spoiler :

Position is pretty much identical with your T86. Do not despair, just acknowledge that with better city management things go faster. Not sure if I go HBR or archery now - one thing that is much better in your game is the copper. I think I need some archers - I mean warriorpult is a bit extreme. Or just wait for elephants before declaring.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

It's interesting to see the difference in AI settle positions between the two games, and the flow-on effects they have. I think I got much luckier than you in that regard.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

I also need to start thinking about the tech path going forward. What troops do I want to take into the next war? Or will I need to shore up my economy first?

 

[sampsa]

strategy stuff

Spoiler :

Well, elephants are a strong unit until 1000AD (T160) on immortal. One thing very useful is the ability to capitulate enemies (=feudalism). You might want to tech towards engineering, I mean trebs are so much stronger than cats when taking cities. Then again perhaps you can just plow through everything with cats. Currency is useful, but it's not like your economy dies without it.

So it kinda depends what you want to do. I want to just end the game as fast as I can and I think it might be possible to just conquer all with the units that are available at HBR.

Btw I did build an academy with the GS. It's not very useful as IMO tech will not be so important in this game anymore. Then again, what is more useful? Maybe a later golden age, but meh.

Of course you can also just take out one AI with elepult and then chill towards lib cuirs or something. Just decide early what you want to do because otherwise you can't make good decisions.

 

[sampsa]

T86

Spoiler :

Ready to go next turn with 11 cats and ~10 units (2 elephants). He has been WHEOOHRN for ~10T but I can't wait any longer. He has a small stack in capital but obviously I can take it. Finally got religion and she is sending more missionaries. Switched this turn. All forest inside culture gone next turn.

I don't know why exactly I'm this much ahead, but I think it's just a dozen of little things that I've done more accurately.

 

[sampsa]

war machine T88 screenshots

Spoiler :

Don't be afraid to stack unhappiness, it doesn't matter. The city with natural is the weakest "prod"-city, because it has the least food. You will gain more -res eventually via trade or via conquest, every vassal is +1 and so on. Just keep the ball rolling once you start.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Spoiler T124 - No rest for the wicked :

Well I finally defeated Stalin after 24 turns of war. I got some bad rolls, possibly combined with sub-par tactics. I sent my first attack with 6 cats and 6 axes. I only lost 2 cats, but the rest of the stack was so badly damaged that I wasn't able to press the attack until a number of elephants arrived.

A heap more bad rolls, stretched the war out long enough for Stalin to bribe Portugal into attacking me 2 turns before I razed his last city. So now I have to rush all my troops to my southern border to fend off Joao. I was able to survive his initial assault by using a GG to turn my garrisoned warrior into a warlord, and whipping an elephant, then an archer in my Cow City. They were able to hold the city, and reinforcements are now beginning to arrive.

Fur City has 54 turns of stacked whip unhappiness. A couple more cities are in the 20-30 range, and two Russian cities are able to start pumping out units (cats in Novgorod, and elephants in Moscow).

I was able to use the gold from capturing Russian cities to finish Feudalism, but with the slider at 0% I'm only +5gpt. That's not especially good, so I have to stay on the offensive, and hope I can annex the world before they out-tech me.

I'm not especially optimistic. However, even if the game is lost, the first 50-60 turns were sufficiently different to my usual play as to be instructive, I think. And that's enough to put this one in the "win" column for me. That's not to say I'm giving up, just that I frequently lose from this kind of position.

I'm happy to share screenshots if you'd like to see what's going on, but I'm not really sure what would be useful or interesting to you at this stage.

 

[antimony]

Re: what to tech during a construction attack

I think Currency does enough things to be a good first tech: in particular it trades well for things like Alphabet, Monarchy and Code of Laws. And once you have Alpha + Currency you can make quite a bit of gold trading your old techs to AIs.

But even now, if you manage to get currency you'll be fine economically. Just don't trade Feudalism.
You may have to extort some tech in a peace treaty if conquest gold doesn't get you there.

If you were playing for the longer game, getting to Civil Service with an academy in your capital, and letting it do most of your research while other cities whip troops, would be a reasonable choice. The research boost might even help you get to engineering faster than beelining engineering though I'm not sure.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

But even now, if you manage to get currency you'll be fine economically. Just don't trade Feudalism.

Ummm... Those numbers were with Currency (it was the first thing I researched after HBR).

Spoiler However... :

I did just realise that in my game, Moscow has the Mids. So I could revolt now into Representation (I don't like HR in this situation, because I need my troops on the front line, not sitting at home making people happy) to get a reasonable boost. I can even switch to Vassalage and still only have 1 turn of anarchy.

I've also got a GS I was saving to bulb Machinery or Engineering, but I could use him to save the turn of anarchy and boost my cities' output for a bit instead.

 

[sampsa]

Just post a save, there is a lot going on probably so it's hard to comment based on screenshots.

 

[sampsa]

As you can see from my screenshots, I try to keep working the cottages that I've matured. Of course, sometimes getting more units is more urgent. It's a thing you get a feel for after you've played many games.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Yeah, with all my losses, I ended up whipping off some useful tiles. Maybe I panicked, but I don't think so. It was probably more that I misjudged what it would take to capture a city, so instead of sending reinforcements to my main stack, I diverted them to capture a city that I had ignored on my way into his core.

Spoiler Just realised... :

That Washington was finally able/willing to trade me something useful, so I nabbed 2 luxury resources. Happiness is no longer a real problem for the moment.

Save is BUFFY. Can provide WB if you prefer.

 

[sampsa]

Washington was finally able/willing to trade me something useful, so I nabbed 2 luxury resources

These things can make a huge difference. BUFFY also tells you when there are trades available but I still check every turn.