Immortal Sitting Bull

[dankok8]

edit: If you want compatibility with forum games then BUG/BULL in custom assets is the way to go. Installing all of them is not out of the question though - I have them all.

They are all different, though partially same. I'm using BUG to open your saves, so they work fine. I'd simply suggest you to install BUG to "custom assests". In offline games, I use BUFFY (=HOF-mod) as it's even more convenient.

I see. So if I want to be able to open everyone's games and vice versa, I should install BUG in CustomAssets. I'll back up that folder just in case. Which is the latest version?

 

[lymond]

I see. So if I want to be able to open everyone's games and vice versa, I should install BUG in CustomAssets. I'll back up that folder just in case. Which is the latest version?

You actually don’t have to back up custom assets. In fact deleting does no harm as the game will always generate a fresh folder if it does not exist.

Latest bug bull should be easy to find using their link.

 

[lymond]

Regarding my computer. It's a fairly newish business/study notebook. 8GB ram, Intel Pentium 2 core 1.6 Hz. Integrated graphics card. Not really meant for gaming. In some ways it's more of a glorified tablet than a laptop so I'm impressed it runs anything at all. I think the bottleneck is the processor since IIRC civ doesn't really know how to use multiple cores. I've downloaded and installed this patch and it seemed to make the game run better although given what you said about the game having a memory leak it's maybe that difference I was identifying. The alt-tab trick is handy! Thanks.

I might give BAT a try. I like the idea of more unique graphics.
EDIT: Is there actually a comprehensive list of BAT graphical changes anywhere? Can't seem to find one on the Unaltered Gameplay forum

Pentium..ha....well we used to run the game on that chip years ago. Your notebook is 64-bit though right? That in itself resolved a huge problem encountered in old 32-bit machines. Anyway, gpu and to an extent ram is most important and while Intel's Integrated Graphic card is not great, since your machine is fairly new the card is still much stronger than the name brands we played with years ago. Your RAM is fine and as you've figured out IV only takes advantage of a part of it.

Can't find a comprehensive list of the BAT details. However, once installed, look in the folder for a BAT Credits.txt which shows all the included mods and bug team addition. This will give you some idea and you can always search for the individual mod components like VD in the C&C forum to get the details.

Some quick head math tells me that whip/chopping the settler would get it out in around the same amount of time but with substantial overflow into the next build. I usually don't whip my first settler but this is a good example of game where I have enough food that that makes a lot of sense!

2S for pig city is right I think. Don't ruin any riverside grassland that way.

Totally agree with Sampsa on settling 2S for pigs and not just for saving grassland, but cities provides some nice coverage to help grow some cottages for Cahokia. Really one of the key concepts we like to impart on playing higher levels. Have to look in your game here soon to see the SW portion..can't tell from pics...but a city down here would effectively block off Darius from the E I think.

edit: pic below shows a perfect spot for your next city - after pigs - barring additional scouting info like seafood:

Spoiler city 2 :

 

[Set]

Until T40

Cahokia completes the settler and starts on a dog soldier while it grows to size 4. Turns line up nicely with 1 turn of transit for settler and worker while I'm in revolt and then Poverty Point is founded at Pigs spot. Worker goes to pasture. AH finishes but horses are outside of caps borders . Start on Mysticism. They do make other city spots look nice though.

Poverty Point decides to go for a warrior while it grows to size to as with a whip as this will get the worker out faster. Warrior til size 2 than worker and whip + chop will get it out quick.
Darius has no copper

Spoiler :

Our Woodsman finds the edge of the woods and can explore no further.

Spoiler :

Land looks huge though. Definitely 10 uncontested cities here once Darius is blocked off. Could be 15.

Northern Warrior finds a barb archer while moving to fogbust and considers taking the fight but decides the risk isn't worth it.

Spoiler :

After a short game of cat and mouse with the initial barb archer though he blunders into another one coming up from the south and loses a battle at 65% odds in our favor . Painful

Spoiler :

State of the map.

Spoiler :

In regards to building the settler: I'm currently putting 10 hammers/food into it per turn. Is it worth waiting until 60 hammers/food have gone into the settler to two pop whip? This will overflow into the Dog and build it faster which I'm inclined to do after losing northern warrior. But delaying settler always hurts.

Woodsman Warrior will move north in case barb archers come for Cahokia.

In poverty point I'm thinking I'll whip a monument as soon as it grows back after whipping the worker. Afterwards it can build a warrior to size 2 or 3 and then build workers for a little bit while unhappy wears off. No granaries yet. Other option is to chop the monument with one of the workers which saves me some happy management. But I'm not sure I want Poverty Point to be big yet since it will probably not have more than 2 improved tiles for 5-10 turns (right now it can work farm as well after capital whips) and could save the worker turns/forest/get the monument faster by whipping

Pentium..ha....well we used to run the game on that chip years ago. Your notebook is 64-bit though right? That in itself resolved a huge problem encountered in old 32-bit machines. Anyway, gpu and to an extent ram is most important and while Intel's Integrated Graphic card is not great, since your machine is fairly new the card is still much stronger than the name brands we played with years ago. Your RAM is fine and as you've figured out IV only takes advantage of a part of it.

Can't find a comprehensive list of the BAT details. However, once installed, look in the folder for a BAT Credits.txt which shows all the included mods and bug team addition. This will give you some idea and you can always search for the individual mod components like VD in the C&C forum to get the details.

Yes 64 bit. One day I'd like to have a a computer that can run stuff like GEM with minimal turn wait in the late game. Although Civ 4 is supposedly poorly optimized and I'm not sure any computer could do that.

 

[Tobiyogi]

I also had the impulse to settle on the hill 2S of the starting tile. Could be a PH? Saves a forest, keeps the sheep, and some river tiles. 12 T worker always nice if its a PH

 

[Set]

Until turn 50:

Worker build in Poverty Point goes as planned. Old worker goes to chop trees for the totem pole while new worker heads south to be in position when third city goes down. Things don't quite line up, one dead worker turn, but it's close. After mysticism I go the wheel so I can grab pottery and start getting some commerce. I whip the Settler as soon as possible. And he heads down to build mound city. I see a Darius settler party. Don't know where they're headed.

Spoiler :

Woodsman Warrior heads north to keep an eye on the archer. From the forested hill he has very good odds so I let them come and he kills them both in 2 turns
The Savior of Cahokia

Spoiler :

I neglected to take a screenshot at the moment of the battle but here's the site.

Afterwards he turns around to garrison capital against military protection complaints.
Susa is founded in a place that looks pretty useless to me. Maybe there's iron around?

Spoiler :

Poverty Point starts on a warrior after the totem pole. Worker who was chopping goes to build mine by Cahokia. Cahokia continues the dog soldier. Mound City starts building a worker. Quicker to slowbuild it this time. Poverty Point will probably go for another worker once the warrior is done.
State of the world:

Spoiler :

General plan is to grab pottery and then get started with cottages in the riverlands. I want to finish dog and then go for another settler in capital. Poverty point to grow to size 4 and then whip a worker. Happy cap is a problem so 4th city will go in the spot labeled "after dog" to grab silver. After Pottery tech writing I think so I can start working on a GS

 

[Set]

Played until T70 and completion of writing. Was not great about taking screenies this set! It's hard to keep track of that as more stuff starts happening

Two new workers come out of Poverty Point and Mound City. Dog soldier finished in Cahokia and then I start on a Settler. After dropping one chop into a settler in cahokia old workers start roading towards fourth city site by silver. New workers road pigs/corn for two turns until pottery completes and then start cottaging.

Spoiler :

Chaco Canyon is founded at corn/silver spot. Not sure if it should go Totem first or granary first since I think silver is reasonably important. I go Granary first which works out alright in the end I think. One worker improves horse while the other works on the corn.

Spoiler :

Barbs all activate at once and I have to deal with 4 warriors and one archer coming at Chaco Canyon. Dog Soldiers eat warriors for breakfast though and he hardly takes damage until the last fight. Cahokia completes a Chariot anyway to help. In the meantime, workers unable to improve corn chop the granary in chaco canyon and road towards silver.

Spoiler :

Writing finishes turn 70 and I stopped since I want to think about planning.

Spoiler :

Game seems to mostly be running very smoothly so far. I'm especially pleased with the cottages coming online. Feels much smoother/quicker than usual though I'm not sure why. I want to quickly expand to three marked city spots (sheep/marble city will probably be 1s). Make GS for academy in capital in Mound City I think since Poverty Point wants to work cottages and Capital will be working on a few Settlers.

Tech wise aesthetics->literature for Great Library since I have marble. Not sure if it's worth going for music here? I usually don't try but I don't really know when you should or shouldn't. Darius still has no metal or horse so no need to worry about him I think. Trade for Math and then run conventional route to CoL->CS->Phil with detour to grab compass and optics before Lib so I can Lib Astro.

I don't really see a good GP farm here unfortunately. Maybe one GS each in Mound City/Cahokia/Poverty Point/Unbuilt Sheep city for Academy and 3 bulbs. Phil, Education and Optics. Is running Pacifism worth it without a GP farm?

EDIT: This game does feel like it might be super easy if Darius really has no metal/only very limited space. Certainly makes diplomacy matter a lot less if Darius never unlocks the ability to plot. When do AIs usually tech Iron Working?

Also, weird bug(?) in my game. Can't seem to find Astronomy in the tech tree. I feel like it should be here:

Spoiler :

But maybe I'm just not seeing it? It's still in the Civlopedia

 

[drewisfat]

Scroll to the right a little bit

 

[Set]

Ahh!!! I see it now. Above Corporation. Feels like a weird place to put it!

 

[Set]

Played until Aesthetics finished.

Things go as planned. Settlers head out to settle Mesa Verde and then Snake Town. Workers move in to improve their food/chop granaries.

Spoiler :

Mesa Verde

Spoiler :

Snaketown

Capital is over whipped though. Oops. Mound City is also slightly over whipped in getting the library out.

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Cities are running out of things to build as well. I get one more worker in Mound City since it's very unhappy and I don't really want to grow it. but I think I have too many at this point (6) and they're running out of really useful things to do. Am already building a few unneeded roads.

Silver hook up in the north helps with the whipping/general happiness situation quite a lot.
Chariot goes East and finds copper + some nice land.

Spoiler :

Darius gets Alphabet and he tells me he has iron.

Spoiler :

I also notice he met someone . Should have been paying closer attention to the EP screen. I will have to send the chariot through his territory to see if someone's there or maybe a coast spot where a work boat might be visible. No coastal city to build a workboat. I should probably build one soon. Probably by the cows down south.

Spoiler :

Chaco canyon grows into a nice early production city. 13 base hammers from horses, 2 grassland mines, and the silver. But it's a very food poor city in the long run. I start on the Statue of Zeus for fail gold. I imagine I won't collect for long time though.

Spoiler :

First GS is coming out in Mound City. I don't need second or third for a little while here so I'll wait to switch to scientists in other cities until I can comfortably work the cottages (or I'm close to techs I want to bulb).

Spoiler :

I really want to REX here since there's so much land but my economy isn't up for it at all. Maybe after the Great Library. Now that Darius could potentially plot I also want to build a few dog soldiers, 3-4, to be ready. Not sure if that takes precedence over Statue of Zeus fail gold. Plan is still to go for Lit so I can build the Great Library and hopefully Darius finishes math by then so I can trade for it.

 

[Set]

Played until 1 turn after GL finishes when I adopt Hereditary Rule.

After thinking about it some more I decide to continue expanding. More land = good. Chaco Canyon will skip Statue of Zeus fail gold for now until were closer to the date it will likely be built and slow build some settlers. I decide to go for music but as you'll see, really mess it up. I also decide to go for Music to grab the GA.

I'm also going to probably try to play this game peacefully and go for Space. Seems like there is enough land to grow big enough without wars. In all my thousands of hours playing Civ 4 I don't think I've won a single Space Victory. Trying one out here should make a map that looks easier a little more interesting.

I decide building research might be nice so I make this trade with Darius.

Spoiler :

Immediately afterwards I realize that building research is not fantastic since I have marble for wonder fail gold :/

Spiro is founded using a settler from Chaco Canyon

Spoiler :

I also start on the Great Library in capital. Even with only a few turns invested I already feel like it isn't the wisest investment. It takes too long and I'm not sure the effect is big enough. Probably would have been better to just work cottages more. I already feel committed due to grabbing literature though so I continue. If I were to reload I would probably decide not to go for GL. I make this trade with Darius.

Spoiler :

I'm sure you can imagine what happens next .

Spoiler :

Yep. Darius is going to beat me to music now I decide to switch tech and go for monarchy to solve my happy issues. Then MC for eventual optics and since Darius doesn't have that yet and hopefully I can trade for currency.

My chariot discovers some islands off Darius's coast. I build a workboat in Spiro and go to investigate.

Spoiler :

Daoism gets founded which feels a little early to me but I have hard time judging these things in Semi-iso

Spoiler :

Moundvillle, Nagodoches and Nanih Waiyah are founded shortly after

Spoiler :

 

[Set]

Workboat discovers that the island is very big! I'm building another one to explore more.

Spoiler :

GL finishes in capital and I switch into Hereditary Rule.
T120

Spoiler :

Game feels much less smooth than it did. I feel like I definitely blundered research and trade decisions there. Also not sure that GL will pay off. I don't think I'm in a great position tech wise but it isn't awful (I think) so should be fine. Not really sure about techs right now. I feel pretty unfocused. Maybe CoL -> CS after MC? Am also wondering if Parthenon might actually be worth building since I think I will generate GS in many cities. Sort of a NE for many cities

 

[dankok8]

BULL is a separate directly synergistic mod for BUG. You install both to get the full features of BUG. Install BUG in custom assets as most do here, then unzip the BULL files and follow the included instructions to copy them in the right place. The key thing is the BULL DLL that will replace the vanilla bts dll. Just note that you do not want to overwrite the vanilla dll as you may need it for other mods - just add a fake extension to the vanilla dll so it is ignored and just change them when you need van active and bull inactive (this is quite easy and I actually use .bat executables to do this in a snap). BULL will not effect running BUFFY and BAT though you will need go back to vanilla dll if you play HOF or GOTM games as those games used locked modified assets so having the BULL DLL will prevent opening those saves.

BAT and BUFFY were created by the same team, and though totally separate mods for different intent they are quite similar in most ways. Both are basically BUG and BULL with all the BULL stuff active (some BULL features were made optional like worker prechops and heal sentry which are two things I like most about the mod anyway..ha. The main difference is that BAT was designed to included some nice graphical enhancements like Blue Marble (easy separate install too), a mod component that I'll call VD since I can't remember the exact name that includes a bunch of unit and building enhancements, and some other stuff I can't remember. (I use BAT more than any mod - it is great) BUFFY on the other hand was designed specifically for HOF and GOTM vettting so it basically includes BAT+BULL+HOF mod. HOF mod was developed by the HOF team years ago with the BUG team to provide a means to ensure integrity of these friendly competition games.

edit: If you want compatibility with forum games then BUG/BULL in custom assets is the way to go. Installing all of them is not out of the question though - I have them all.

Note: Blue Marble is an easy install that does not conflict with anything nor is it loaded. I find it so much better than vanilla terrain/water graphics.

Sorry for asking about this here @lymond but the BUG subforum isn't active these days and you seem to know everything about this. I installed BUG 4.4 (latest one) from sourceforge in the CustomAssets folder. Anyways I am able to open forum games and play games normally with BUG enabled but a few other mods like StartingPoints don't work. I didn't back up the vanilla dll but you said that's only for BULL. Does the BUG I downloaded include BULL or not? And is there any easy way to get these mods to work? If I uninstall BUG and reinstall as aa separate mod will they work?

 

[lymond]

Sorry for asking about this here @lymond but the BUG subforum isn't active these days and you seem to know everything about this. I installed BUG 4.4 (latest one) from sourceforge in the CustomAssets folder. Anyways I am able to open forum games and play games normally with BUG enabled but a few other mods like StartingPoints don't work. I didn't back up the vanilla dll but you said that's only for BULL. Does the BUG I downloaded include BULL or not? And is there any easy way to get these mods to work? If I uninstall BUG and reinstall as aa separate mod will they work?

BULL is a separate install. It's a zip file that you unzip and copy files into custom assets (instructions are in there but it's quite easy), and place the DLL file to the Assets folder, after renaming the vanilla dll (just add an extra extension so it is not read).

Sorry, I don't know StartingPoints. Most standalone mods (mods you have to load), are usually set to ignore Custom Assets so there should be no conflict. The BULL dll file likely would cause a conflict, but you can simply change back to the vanilla dll before loading another mod.

However, let me make one thing clear about the Custom Assets folder. It is simply what the name suggests, a place for custom assets (another way of saying modded files). The vanilla game reads custom assets folder first to find any replacement files for vanilla assets should they exist, then otherwise uses the vanilla assets. The Custom Assets folder is disposable. That is, you can delete the folder entirely with no harm as the game will simply regenerate a new CA folder. You can also just simply rename the CA folder so that the current configuration you have in it (such as BUG) is ignored. The game will create a fresh empty CA folder.

I keep a copy of CA folder with BUG/BULL/Blue Marble and a copy of CA with just Blue Marble that I switch between simply by renaming the folders (bug and van). I use the van version if I'm running any other modpacks.

When you say BUG as separate mod, I assume you mean a standalone install. It would be exactly that - standalone. You will have to load BUG as a mod to work and it would ignore custom assets. A standalone mod would really only work with another mod or mod component if they were incorporate into the installation....as far as I know. (I'm not a modder myself but just go with the experience I've had installing these things over the years)

StartingPoints I suspect is a mod component. Likely it could be incorporated in some way - either in CA with BUG or a BUG standalone install, but I'm not sure how to do that myself. Mods and mod components are certainly incorporated in other mods all the time - BUG is in a lot of different modpacks out there.

On another note, you can have both the standalone install of BUG/BULL and the CA install of BUG/BULL - I do. Only really have the standalone install in case someone else here does - it happens sometimes though rarely. But the CA install is most useful playing games on this forum here since saves are easily accessible to everyone. Again, not sure what StartingPoints mod is but there may be a way of incorporating it into the CA BUG install and I would suspect not create save conflicts.

Standalone mods of any type though are standalone - you can only have one running at a time.

 

[lymond]

@dankok8 I think I found StartingPoints. Looks like it is a mod with some playable earth map scenarios that tries to put civs in true proximity locations. Appears to be a small mod..not so complicated..and does not have its own DLL. It is not set to ignore custom assets so it will read the CA folder. I tried installing it myself and using my BUG custom assets. The mod loads and so does a scenario, but the UI is missing which is a clear indicator of a conflict.

If it's just a matter of being able to run StartingPoints while BUG is in CA, you can go to the StartingPoints mod folder and open the ini file. Change the NoCustomAsset option from 0 to 1, and the mod will ignore custom assets and run fine. I tested that myself. You just will not have BUG.

Again, not a modder, but I suspect it would not be too difficult to incorporate BUG into the mod or possibly have it work with BUG in CA. There's probably just some file assets that conflict. However, it would require some modding experience. You might ask the mod developer.

GEM is an example of an earth mod scenario mod that incorporate BUG directly, but virtue of RevDCM.

 

[dankok8]

Thanks a lot @lymond

I didn't unzip anything and just ran the installer (.exe) so I guess that means I didn't install BULL. and only BUG. What does BULL add? I read some things that BULL affects MP games negatively so I may stay away from that and stick with BUG only.

So if I delete or rename the CustomAssets folder, then BUG is gone and the vanilla game will run? Just trying to make sure if I understand correctly. Or does BUG run automatically and a new CustomAssets folder will be made by BUG?

I'll try the .ini edit you suggested for StartingPoints but I realize it's not so important. Worst case I can just open WorldBuilder with Earth 18 and edit the civs in myself and then play it as a scenario. A bit more time-consuming but wouldn't be the end of the world.

And I think you're definitely right about standalone mods not being able to run together. I installed lots of mods before and you can't run them simultaneously.

 

[lymond]

Ha, well it is not a matter of if I'm right or wrong..that's an absolute...stand-alone is stand-alone

The game itself makes new CA folders.. Bug has absolutely nothing to do with that. What I'm saying is to setup up a BUG/BULL CA folder and when you don't want it active, simply rename the folder like "Custom Assets - BUG". Once you do that the folder is deactivated. The game won't recognize the folder. When you want it active again simply remove "-BUG" so that the folder is just called "Custom Assets" again and the game recognizes it. The point here is you can setup a version of CA for BUG/BULL (and for me blue marble) and not have to install it again when you don't want it active. Simply deactivate the folder by renaming it. The game will generate a fresh CA folder.

BULL is synergistic with BUG. Once installed it adds additional BUG features. BUFFY and BAT have BUG/BULL....basically the core of those two mods. I suggest installing BULL too..there is really no reason not to. I know nothing about any MP issues. The main issue with MP and Mods is that all players need to have matching assets otherwise you create Out-of-Sync errors. If everyone in MP is using the same mods and version then there should be no issue. Anyway, I think MP requires standalone version of mod installation, hence why the BUG standalone version is called the MP version. If anyone is stating that have issues running BUG/BULL in MP its likely either cause someone has a bad installation or someone is running some odd version.

The point on the ini change is simply so you can run StartingPoints without bothering to mess with your custom asset folder if you have BUG in there, as the mod will simply ignore it. Not sure why you would even bother with whatever you are attempting to do there - seems absolutely no point to it. If you actually want BUG to be there with your StartingPoint mod you will likely have to incorporate it in some way.

edit: Oh..I think I see what you are doing. Ignoring the SP mod and just playing the scenario maps normally so that BUG is active, but don't get the benefit of what SP does for starting locations.. Seems a lot of work though.

Some advice from modders in the mod forum may help getting BUG incorporated. Not sure how simple it is but SP does not seem overly-complicated at a glance. Question is if the mod needs to be compiled again.

 

[Qactus]

I don't think you were losing the Music race there. Note that it's perfectly fine to reach the tech the same turn as the AI (same for completing wonders). In the screenshot it seems that with a little bit of adjustment Persia's 6 turns could have been matched easily. Probably even continuing the GL build most of the turns.

 

[dankok8]

Ha, well it is not a matter of if I'm right or wrong..that's an absolute...stand-alone is stand-alone

The game itself makes new CA folders.. Bug has absolutely nothing to do with that. What I'm saying is to setup up a BUG/BULL CA folder and when you don't want it active, simply rename the folder like "Custom Assets - BUG". Once you do that the folder is deactivated. The game won't recognize the folder. When you want it active again simply remove "-BUG" so that the folder is just called "Custom Assets" again and the game recognizes it. The point here is you can setup a version of CA for BUG/BULL (and for me blue marble) and not have to install it again when you don't want it active. Simply deactivate the folder by renaming it. The game will generate a fresh CA folder.

BULL is synergistic with BUG. Once installed it adds additional BUG features. BUFFY and BAT have BUG/BULL....basically the core of those two mods. I suggest installing BULL too..there is really no reason not to. I know nothing about any MP issues. The main issue with MP and Mods is that all players need to have matching assets otherwise you create Out-of-Sync errors. If everyone in MP is using the same mods and version then there should be no issue. Anyway, I think MP requires standalone version of mod installation, hence why the BUG standalone version is called the MP version. If anyone is stating that have issues running BUG/BULL in MP its likely either cause someone has a bad installation or someone is running some odd version.

The point on the ini change is simply so you can run StartingPoints without bothering to mess with your custom asset folder if you have BUG in there, as the mod will simply ignore it. Not sure why you would even bother with whatever you are attempting to do there - seems absolutely no point to it. If you actually want BUG to be there with your StartingPoint mod you will likely have to incorporate it in some way.

edit: Oh..I think I see what you are doing. Ignoring the SP mod and just playing the scenario maps normally so that BUG is active, but don't get the benefit of what SP does for starting locations.. Seems a lot of work though.

Some advice from modders in the mod forum may help getting BUG incorporated. Not sure how simple it is but SP does not seem overly-complicated at a glance. Question is if the mod needs to be compiled again.

Editing the .ini file for StartingPoints didn't work. I changed to =1 but the UI still didn't load. But when I renamed the CustomAssets folder that worked and I can do that every time. I'll have two copies, one for Vanilla BTS when I want to load mods or play MP and other for BUG when I play forum games or just random maps. It's actually pretty awesome.
Thank you so much @lymond. I love you man!

 

[dankok8]

@Set

You built and improved your cities nicely but I agree that you don't seem well off techwise. Metal Casting in the AD's is slow. Maybe better players can give you more advice since I'm also breaking through at Immortal. Maybe it was better to attack Darius? And build Wealth instead of Research?