[BTS] Immortal Suryavarman Shadow

[jnebbe]

I've started playing again and just had a very promising immortal game so apparently immortal isn't as big of a stretch as I think it is. I could probably get my first immortal win with this forum's help.

I think my main problem is city micro. I can micro cities well up until around 6 or 7, at which point I lose direction, I'll basically only build cottages on grasslands and mines on hills, I won't pay attention to production/military cities, I won't focus on specialists or great person farming, things like that.

One thing in particular I'm curious about is how much you should be making cottages vs running scientists, I feel like making farms + scientists would be better even without representation but I also feel like I'm not going to out-research immortal ai's anyway so it doesn't really matter

Playing as Suryavarman
Starts with Hunting + Mining
Traits are Expansive + Creative

Pangaea, normal speed, normal size
Huts+random events off, also turned off vassals because I don't like how it snowballs really quickly

Start:

Spoiler :

Thinking moving scout 2E1S and then probably SIP, then Agriculture/AH depending on what I find east

 

[lymond]

I think my main problem is city micro. I can micro cities well up until around 6 or 7, at which point I lose direction, I'll basically only build cottages on grasslands and mines on hills, I won't pay attention to production/military cities, I won't focus on specialists or great person farming, things like that.

Well, the bulk of early city micro is working specials (food) and managing happiness and the whip...combined with running scientists as much as possible. Mines are very low priority in most cases. Production/military cities are overrated or overblown really ...every city is a production/military city to some degree. Specialists and bulbing are keys to high level play.

One thing in particular I'm curious about is how much you should be making cottages vs running scientists, I feel like making farms + scientists would be better even without representation but I also feel like I'm not going to out-research immortal ai's anyway so it doesn't really matter

In most cases, you are looking to setup up a Bureau cap with riverside cottages, and ideally overlapped helper cities to help cottage growth. Outside of that cottages are more situational but certainly more cottages around rivers and flood plains is a good idea. Representation changes cottage focus a bit.

Problem is that some less experience folks just have workers cottaging every tile on the map while high priority actions are needed, like chopping, and cities can't even begin to work all that. More important thing really is thinking about and improving worker management.

Don't be overly concerned early to mid-game about "tiles" for size greater than say 6 or so, except maybe the cap. Put more emphasis on improving specials, chopping, and gradually cottaging good tiles around the cap and you should be on right track. Most cities are going to be rather small for a long time and you should be whipping.

also turned off vassals because I don't like how it snowballs really quickly

Snowballs for whom?

Thinking moving scout 2E1S and then probably SIP, then Agriculture/AH depending on what I find east

My first instinct when looking at this start is moving more inland. The focus point, of course is the two food specials - pigs and wet wheat. Whatever I do I want those in play. There's not really a target tile here such as a bonus tile - well, actually settling on the spice would provide a bonus. Anyway, I would move inland for more land tiles and to prevent possible orphaning of hidden seafood considering the location.

I was thinking moving 1SE to settle, so moving the scout to the E really does not look interesting (looks like desert over there). So I'd move the Scout W...like 1SW...to see if I would lose anything with the move, or possible reveal something interesting that would make me decide to settle 1S on the spice.

 

[Fippy]

Yup scout 1sw is best, those are plains hill tiles i think and they could hold interesting stuff.
Like being forested (speeds up worker after border pop), or maybe even resis (gold or silver).

Seafood cannot be abandoned here imo, with the land tile 3n1w of settler.
I would certainly not move 1se here..sowy Lymo
Costs 2 turns towards improving wheat.

 

[sampsa]

I think my main problem is city micro. I can micro cities well up until around 6 or 7, at which point I lose direction, I'll basically only build cottages on grasslands and mines on hills, I won't pay attention to production/military cities, I won't focus on specialists or great person farming, things like that.

Production/military cities are not something to worry about. Getting 1-2 is pretty important though, to start a golden age in order to gain more .

One thing in particular I'm curious about is how much you should be making cottages vs running scientists, I feel like making farms + scientists would be better even without representation but I also feel like I'm not going to out-research immortal ai's anyway so it doesn't really matter

First of all, if you do things perfectly or even close to it you will out-research IMM AI every game. Farms+sci vs cottages: Well, my experience is that cottages are in general better after the first 1-2s. 2farms+1sci generate 633 while 3 non-river grass cottages generate 63 (this revelation I had a few years ago, one scientist doesn't need to beat two cottages, but three!). Now while in this example the specialist wins 3-points per turn, they are worthless unless they are used to spawn a . Running specialists requires an investment of 90 (library). Cottages grow. Thus my bread'n'butter-strategy is not

combined with running scientists as much as possible.

but closer to "run as few scientists as possible". I also realize that is not exactly what lymond meant, but just to be clear.

So, you need one GS to bulb philo and one to start a golden age (can be music artist though) and that's it. Academy is optional, to me it's more of a distraction than anything else in most games, but many players seem very fond of it. During the GA, the -points are tripled (ga+paci) so it is the time when specialists truly shine. Caste+paci also requires zero investment in buildings.

Traits change some things. PHI, CRE, FIN at least should alter the strategy a bit. CRE because 45 libraries are pretty strong so you are naturally flowing a bit more towards a more specialist-heavy early game. -cap matters a lot. If you don't have the to grow, cottages go down in value, thus stagnating running specialists becomes more attractive, at least temporarily.

I've probably said this to you before, but if you want to see how to build up your empire, watch Lain. You don't need to watch the whole game, just parts of the early game. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBiPHqnZ3mwIqtraltox6jg/playlists

 

[Gumbolt]

AGr/AH is fine but you will need BW at some point or your worker will run out of useful things to do.
25% faster worker with 4H.
Double speed granaries too. This leader was built for the early game. Quick granaries =faster growth. Faster libraries mean faster great people as no need for 3 pop whips. Chops add 40H to library. Same for granaries.

So AG/AHBW then beeline writing could be a good strategy here. Would need to see rest of map.

Scientists pay off much better with rep civic. Always good to mix and match. Scientists during golden ages can reap 3-4 GS.

 

[jnebbe]

T1-5

Spoiler :

Scouted 1SW and SIP

Moving onto the PH revealed the 3rd gold so I had to check that out. Maybe I should've scouted east instead but I think scouting the gold is really important.
Also met monty T4 to the east
Plan is to move scout NE above that lake and then curl south to scout the south border.

Worker finishes in 10+1 to move into forest means I can start chopping a settler immediately so I like BW a lot now, I definitely want some more info before committing to agriculture/ah. With creative trait I should be able to fogbust south once borders pop again and I think I'll still get a warrior out in time if I do settler first

Snowballs for whom?

Snowballs for ai, I find there's usually 1 ai that ends up with 3 or 4 vassals which I don't like.

Seafood cannot be abandoned here imo, with the land tile 3n1w of settler.

What do you mean by this?

 

[sampsa]

Spoiler :

Umm why are you not working the tile with extra ? 3pt yields no bonus even with EXP. I don't like BW first. Just go agri, wet wheat is a 6yield tile and the pig is farmable even. You can go BW next and you'll get there fast with the gold.

 

[lymond]

I would certainly not move 1se here..sowy Lymo

I also failed to notice that body of water is a lake

Yep, BW first is not good. I would go AG>AH>BW since you start with mining and hunting, but AG>BW also okay.

Vassals should snowball for you

What do you mean by this?

Pretty sure she meant that seafood would not be orphaned here as per my original comments. But I failed to notice that the water above is a lake, not the sea. In other words it is irrelevant to the settling decision here.

 

[Gumbolt]

Vassals should snowball for you

Oh no they won't. Always check game settings on forum games. No vassals option has been selected.

Yep maybe skip AH here. See what the land reveals around you once you have teched agriculture.

 

[jnebbe]

Question, why tech ag first if the pig will give more food than the wheat, and if I'll need ah for my UU if I want it in the future?

 

[lymond]

Oh no they won't. Always check game settings on forum games. No vassals option has been selected.
.

I think you missed the train of thought there, Gumbo

Question, why tech ag first if the pig will give more food than the wheat, and if I'll need ah for my UU if I want it in the future?

UU has absolutely no factor in this decision at all. Completely irrelevant to your tech path right now. No point in not going AG first for a strong wet wheat tile. IMO I would go AH next for strong pigs. AG+Hunt gives bonus to AH so that is a good play here. An argument could be made to go BW before AH with all the forest, but I tend to prioritize the food special techs first if it not a major problem for worker turns. Wheat wheat+pigs+gold is a very strong start.

 

[Gumbolt]

Scout needs to circle capital to find food. Lots of gold is no help if you have no food resources. Gold is a food negative tile. It kills any growth without a strong food resource nearby.

Interesting game.

 

[Fippy]

So why not BW first..let's look at this closer
Chopping gives 20 each 4t (worker moves on forests first too) = 5 / turn.

Wheat and pigs both add 3 each turn for settlers & workers.
At size 2 and once they are improved, you are already behind 1 / turn.
Also spending forests which are not infinite, not prepared for slavery cos little was gained and not ready to use gold for lots of .
So at some point the loss will be really big.

I'm fairly certain that AH after Agri works best with gold and a slow 15t worker..no idle turns for him.
Side note, wet wheat and pigs are actually even in the beginning when there are no other 3 tiles in your bfc.
Both add the same amount of to their tiles. With Agri discounting AH research by 20% you can safely take that bonus first.

 

[jnebbe]

T5-20

Spoiler :

Not looking good, sent scout north of the lake to reveal a tasty plains cow. There's a rice ne that monty settled his 2nd city near, he founded Buddhism so I'm not sure I could just battle for that with creative.
Finished ag->ah, if I go bw I can improve the gold then need to wait for 2 or 3 turns which is not bad
There's already a lion roaming around in south-east so scout has to be careful down there

Worst comes to worst I can maybe use that oasis+grassland farm to grow and then grab those 2 golds?
I can share my wheat and pig easily but don't see any great city spots.
HA rush monty since surely he has better land than us?
Or maybe gamble on there being some fish to the south?

With Agri discounting AH research by 20% you can safely take that bonus first.

Why does this happen? afaik no ai should know Ah by T9 when agri finishes


Another question, food doesn't overflow after growth w/o granary right?
I had 4 food stored in capital and need 22 to grow to size 2
I can work 211 instead of 3 tile for 2 turns, then work the finished farm for 3 turns
4+2+2+5+5+5=23, 1 extra
4+3+3+5+5+5=25, 3 extra
that extra food doesn't overflow right?

 

[sampsa]

Looks good so far.

Why does this happen? afaik no ai should know Ah by T9 when agri finishes

There is a 20% bonus per pre-req you have. "Arrows" leading to the tech in the tech screen.

Another question, food doesn't overflow after growth w/o granary right?

Food always overflows. If it was lost, everyone would be microing it when growing. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you are asking.

 

[Gumbolt]

Early chariot rush? That shrine of Monties will be annoying culture wise. Is he on a hill?

Otherwise looking at HA or axe if you copper. Very little food to whip anything here.

 

[jnebbe]

T20-30

Spoiler :

Of course there's a massive area to the south, luckily there were 3 other scouts down here so that lion wasn't a problem.
Sent warrior to scout monty, his 2nd city is on a hill and I can't see capital
Maybe keep warrior there to steal worker on rice but I'm not confident on worker steals on immortal
Worker finished pig and will mine gold, will be idle 2 turns until bw finishes which is fine

Finally found some deer + I have hunting already. Thinking of slowbuilding this 1st settler, settling on red square, adopting slavery then whipping 2nd settler and settling in yellow square.

Thoughts on bw->archery->wheel->hbr? I want to go HA and I'm not confident holding off the south area with just warriors, might as well get archery early so I have something to build before hbr finishes.
Also, do I get pottery here? After hbr? If I'm not whipping much and have gold, seems like I can hold off on pottery for a while.

Food always overflows. If it was lost, everyone would be microing it when growing. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you are asking.

Good to know, I guess the question is should you always work the tile with most food or a tile with less food but more hammers/com if they'll both grow in the same number of turns?

 

[sampsa]

I guess the question is should you always work the tile with most food or a tile with less food but more hammers/com if they'll both grow in the same number of turns?

In general, just work max food. Sometimes it might make sense to favor say 211-tile compared to 3-tile, if you are not sacrificing growth (i.e. grow to size 2 and to size 3 on the same turn). It's not very important though I think, in the long run it's better to have more food in the bin anyway.

Plan looks OK. You've grown to size 4, right? Was probably more accurate to switch to a settler size 3, because you have 3 good tiles.

I think you are correct to skip pottery - with double gold HBR is not that far.

 

[jnebbe]

T30-62

Spoiler :

Finish building 1st settler and build the south city, then chop+whip 2nd settler for northeast city
BW revealed some copper in borders. I thought about this a while and I think HA is still fine. Monty has a lot of jungle to his north and since there's already a 2nd copper in the south I figured he wouldn't have any for spears. At T62 he still says he only has archers so it should be fine. I'd like to take out his capital asap and I don't like how slow axes are in comparison.

I'm thinking a 4th city spot could be 1N of where my scout is standing with some grassland farms, then work 2 golds + copper, idk that doesn't leave anything for capital though

HBR just finished so I can now start making HA, I built 5 archers, 2 barracks, and 1 worker in the meantime. Keeping my scout active to make sure no barbs get too close, and lincoln+saladin's scouts are trapped down there so barbs have hardly been a problem.

Pretty straightforward it seems, chop/whip out 8 or so HA and take out monty.

What tech should I go for? Writing so I can start running a scientist or 2? How early do I need to start running scientists for that philosophy bulb? I still have some questions why that is so important but I guess I'll find out when we get there.

 

[sampsa]

Well, that's a long turnset. I cant see how many workers you have, but probably two. Typically when attacking with HAs you should be aiming to chop all the forest. You have two and +20 forests to chop (=80 worker turns) so that ain't going to cut it. Probably four is enough on this map if you got them asap. 1 archer should be enough to eliminate barbarian threats. So immediately after settling the 3 cities, having barbs under control, get three more workers. Chop if necessary. I don't know if you are in slavery, but you probably don't need it. Whips without granaries are not that great anyway.

I guess you can delay pottery further if you feel like it. Writing by itself is not that great of a tech, but of course CRE libraries are nice. You should aim to bulb philo ~1AD i.e. T115, so should start running them T98 or so. There is no rush for that, but maybe an academy makes sense. The earlier the better of course. Still, I wouldn't start directing towards buildings when planning to attack someone.

I would replay, but if that's not your thing, get two more workers out asap and chop the forests to HAs. I'm sure it's a great position anyway.