Immortal University 96 - Wang Kon

[Doshin]

I played on a little further, to 1640 AD. The wars continued:

Spoiler :

I had to be careful to look after my navy. I didn't have Chemistry, whereas Mehmed was pumping out Frigates. Eventually, some thirty or so turns later...

Spoiler :

This war was a bit of a grind. Mehmed is a huge unit spammer, and had an enormous stack of Cuirassiers and Grenadiers that I had to deal with. I declared war on T195 and was only done on T222. If only all AIs were like Gandhi.

Moving on, I continued my crusade against the vaguely green AI:

Spoiler :

That's Saladin's stack dealt with, right?

Wrong. Just as I move to capture his capital:

Spoiler :

I think it was hidden in a stack of ships.

Rather than let my damaged stack feel the brunt of a Cavalry rush (and the Flanking pain), I made a temporary ceasefire. This bumped my troops into Saladin's former capital, where I was able to upgrade the Rifles to Infantry and heal.

A few turns later, I redeclared war. Saladin sent his troops to attack Medina, so I put my newly healed army to good use:

Spoiler :

And that was enough to convince Sal to capitulate. I returned his cities, because they're swamped in Arabian culture and I'd like another solid tech partner.

My navy, for reference purposes:

Spoiler :

"Ohhhhh it's a snake."

---

@Smilingrogue

Gandhi won Liberalism. In 900 AD, IIRC. He took Astronomy and proceeded to clean up with the free great people (Economics, Communism, and he finished Physics during our war).

He should probably visit the forum to ask for some basic tips regarding how to win the game.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

1 AD – 500 AD:

Spoiler :

Objectives: tech up while stalling the war with Gilgamesh.
A few crossbows gave us security against the 4-6 units stacks that Gilgamesh could move in our territory. Combat swords were also ok in counteroffensives. We mostly fought 1-2 tiles accross the borders. With equal numbers, superior tech gave us superior results. Just traded axes against vultures, about 1 for 1.
This unlocked the Heroic Epic (built in copper/dyes city... not the best of best choices).
Around, 350 AD, Gilgamesh got Feudalism, walls and a longbow (+ stack)) in his border city, invalidating any attempt to capture it at a low cost. He also became willing to take peace, offering a modest tribute of 4gpt. Took peace!

The Colossus was built in Wonsan. Our offshore cities start being adequate (Granary, Lighthouse, Forge).

The Great Library was built in Nampo. A Great Scientist has been born, to bulb into Astronomy. Now the National Epic can be started.

Tech path has been Compass, Optics, Maths (!), Calendar, Astronomy (in waiting). Our three AIs aren't trading with each other, so there's no pressing need to trade our monopolies. We did, however, give in to a couple demands and are now Pleased with Gilgamesh (who took a -2 diplo hit with Gandhi for declaring war on us, hahaha!).
Optics gave us 2 caravels and the first overseas AI has just been met. Got Construction from him against Alpha + Aesthetics. He doesn't know Polytheism...

So... We kinda have a stack. Can now build Hwachas. Mehmed is already weaker than we are. He has Longbows but I think we'll invade before 1000 AD (next checkpoint). We're running out of place to settle and he is Confucianist, which messes with the plan to adopt Judaism. Finally, we're paying money for our units. Hwachas are what we need, mostly. Few Galleons (5 or so) will be enough for logistics. 2 Galleys are in the queues, maybe they'll just end up being pre-built and wait for the Galleon upgrade to complete the builds.

Lost a barb city and a city spot to Gilgamesh after we made peace. That was rather bad. I did raze the last barb city (settled on gems, 2 tiles from the food, wrong side of the coast - razing cities is not something I do very often). Now we have 3 more settlers in training to fill in the land. At least one settler will go offshore, as there remains a Fish near the Ottomans.
Judaism is pretty well spread but I haven't converted, yet. I suppose I'll wait to meet all the overseas AIs and see what trades they can offer, first.

Gandhi has Philosophy, Paper, is researching Music. He might win Liberalism. We're now doing Astronomy, CoL (trade), Civil Service. We still don't have an Academy in Seoul, not sure what to do about that since I might want to bulb into Education. I guess I just missed the train, there.
Cyrus doesn't have a religion. Maybe we could (should?) spread him Judaism. Seems like our trade already brought him up to Please.


Few screens:

Spoiler :

Stalling the war:

Spoiler :

Culture overview:

Spoiler :

5 Libraries, 7 Forges.
With the bulb, that is 4 or 5 turns to Astronomy. Did bank a little gold already (+barb city) and meeting new AIs would give new opportunities.

Trade techs screen:

Spoiler :

Diplo glance:

Spoiler :

Financial advisor:

Spoiler :

 

[Skipity]

My navy, for reference purposes:

Loved that.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

740 AD:

Spoiler :

Mehmed, 40% unit probability. I've seen some monster stacks above. Let's see how he fares:

Spoiler :

940 AD capitulation, keeping Edirne (not shrined but 3x food), Istanbul (awesome food, wonders) and a 3x Fish city (giving back 2 more). I don't have the tech to support the whole, brownish landmass. There's one area of floodplains but I didn't capture that.
Surprising how much weaker Mehmed is in this shadow: island cities denied, no horses, a little earlier invasion but not that early of an invasion either... Can't emphazise the islands denial enough. I've missed plenty of late or offshore spots to Gilgamesh or, especially, to Gandhi. Gandhi is quite strong. Gilgamesh has enough badlands to remain weak, I think. Despite gaining two cities on us, he didn't go offshore.

Now I can turn back against someone...
Liberalism is totally secure but I don't have a target in mind (yet, apart from Sci Meth/Physics... errr. With a vassal, not sure I wanna do that). Gandhi never intended to research Education. He's been tracking back ever since he researched Paper.
Closing in on 1000 AD. Just one more turn...

 

[Doshin]

1780 AD, Deity, Domination.

After Saladin, it was just a question of mopping up. Land wars are much easier to manage, and the Maya ----> Portugal trip was fairly short.

The siege of Mutal:

Spoiler :

Nooooooo. One defender left.

Spoiler :

Pacal capped a little after that. With the MoM, I started my last GA:

Spoiler :

And invaded Joao and Cyrus. This wasn't too interesting, so here's a series of pictures of the continuing Elepult attack:

Spoiler :

Amphibious Elephants crush Tanks:

Neither Joao nor Darius could withstand the might of the all-powerful Elephant rush:

Spoiler :

Leading to victory, in 1780 AD:

Spoiler :

Thanks for the map, klonoklown!

 

[BornInCantaloup]

My take, Immortal, normal: 500-1000 AD.

Spoiler :

Objectives:
Settle the last island cities.
Research Astronomy, backfill to Liberalism.
Meet AIs, trade with heathens and catch up with Gandhi (monitor closely his research).
Make use of our Heroic Epic and few, advanced units. Build Galleons, invade a weaker Civ, capture lush cities.
Overall, accelerate research. Trigger a golden age. Win the game. UN diplo victory is very much present in my mind. Vassals are guaranteed votes and diplo hits against independent civs. If we're larger, it can balance. The alternative is to make Combustion a major tech target, aiming for absolute naval superiority and a Conquest type of victory. Meeting rivals and assessing the number of coastal cities they have is a good start to weight military vs diplo win (in this case, Gandhi and Saladin are very much coastal).

Last set left us with a GP to bulb Astronomy, so that was an easy start. Generally, I traded as little as possible with our hemisphere, so as to delay Gandhi on his path to Liberalism. He should be the sole competitor for the free tech and we want to catch up.
Turned out there are 2 other continents with two civs on each. Cyrus and Joao trade with each other (a little, Cyrus lacked Polytheism when I met him) so I did sell them very minor techs (up to Monotheism). They don't have money anyway.
Pacal and Saladin are each other's worst ennemy. So I did trade Feudalism from Saladin, confident he wouldn't spread my techs.

Then we had 2 more great scientists. Both of them could have triggered a golden age (1st would have eased a switch into Judaism + Bureaucracy, around 700 AD; 2nd would have accelerated GP production from 960 AD). Did decide against the golden age both times. First GS was used for an Academy in Seoul and the second did bulb into Printing Press. I didn't feel like I could properly accelerate GP production with those GAs, whereas I could certainly use later ones.
National Epic city has now grown and is still producing GPs in <10t, so the delay seems fair. We've also come to a point where we can be first to Nationalism and build the Taj Mahal (may be a more reasonable option than trying a Liberalism -> Radio slingshot...). Finally, using a scientist on a GA doesn't seem best if we're scientist-hungry.

Heroic Epic, 2-4 other cities building the occasional unit, 2 cities pumping 5 galleons for logistics... We have a force! Mehmed, as spoilered in my above post, remained very, very weak so I invaded him asap. We have an easy time crossing the isthmus and galleons give us a far reach along the coast to snipe cities.
That turned out to be an easy and minimalistic war: war declaration on t147, capitulation on t157, 5 city captures.
Istanbul hosts the Pyramids. That is convenient since it unlocks Representation and we will surely switch once we enter a golden age. It is especially useful if we go heavy on GP production if we aim for the UN (3x bulb Electricity? 3x bulb Physics? 2x bulb Scientific Method? 1x bulb Printing Press? We'll never bulb that much but Great Scientists can perform all those actions on the beeline to Mass Media).

Now... what are we doing with the army?
Gandhi is our main rival and has Engineering. Hooowever, we're at 0.9 of his power. Aaand 3 of his cities are on our mainland (poorly defended, no reinforcements). Aaand his capital (lowlands, Castle, Maceman, Longbow, Sword, Axe) is coastal. Finally, his also coastal holy city is shrined...
So towards Gandhi we went. We're now at the borders, reinforcements have used their movement points and we'll see how it goes next turn.
Now that we're willing to vassal Gandhi, it might have been a good idea to build 2-4 spies so as to revolt a city. Won't happen, too bad. What does happen, however, is that we're starting to watch Pacal's tech path, since he can research Education and will likely become an advanced AI at some point. Cyrus and Joao will be worth watching as well, later, when they start making contact. To-do: switch Cyrus and Joao in Judaism before then.

Summary:
Tech path is Nationalism vs Liberalism vs Scientific Method. Target is Mass Media.
Gold is lacking so research power is good but not overwhelming. Seowon and Observatory are complete in 2 turns in our 2 main research centres, so we can stop and bank gold a little (about 500, two turns of research only).

Few screens:

Spoiler :

Our islands:

Spoiler :

Growth potential is very high. We have caps to grow to 15+.

Our core:

Spoiler :

Pyongyang is pulling its weight. Doesn't have lots of multipliers but >60 commerce.
Lots of unused/unimproved land. I've remained stuck to 6 workers until after the war with Gilgamesh and have just built a 7th since then. Surely that could have been better.

Tech margin:

Spoiler :

Demographics, not quite running away, yet:

Spoiler :

Last, the Indian borders (+4units in Delhi):

Spoiler :

We have 16 offensive units + medic boarded. A maceman is flanking from the south against Pikeman + Chariot city.

Save is attached.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@ Doshin:
Good game, & plenty of nice screens with lots of navy. The snake and the destroyers were very shiny! Combustion must be very good to get first, here.
Did you get an airforce, too? Doesn't seem like it... What did refrain you from doing so? I haven't used planes very often but would like to, on this type of map, I guess.

EDIT: took a peek: massive! Unit production has been relentless. Of course you have an air force and even carriers!
I like the military academies and the Moai + Heroic Epic combo. You made good use of all that Sumerian land, mass Courthouses surely helped your recovery. Otoh, it took me a while to find the National Epic... haha!

 

[Doshin]

@BIC

Spoiler :

I had a Frigate two XP away from Combat V for the longest time. I kept postponing the upgrade, but eventually caved. When your best wooden ship has a tough time destroying a wounded Transport, it's time to move on.

Pacal reached Combustion before me, so I couldn't really use my navy during that period. Joao had oil units too.

I did get an airforce, but only in time for the war against Joao and Darius, and they only needed to supplement the attack because I was on top. If you look at my final save, you'll see how they were eventually distributed. They make naval warfare much easier for the human.

Massed Fighters on Carriers are only really needed when fighting a superior army. I used them in one of my old DDD games:

Spoiler :

If Cavalry rushes weren't so effective, it'd be fun to use Bombers and Cavalry on a Pangaea map.

I'd like to see an early UN win. With Free Religion and the right civics, it shouldn't be too difficult.

EDIT: yes! The National Epic took a while. It was the first suitable spot, really.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

^I can remember that game, it was very eventful. I can also remember the Washington and Montezuma games. Those were all very difficult maps. The victories you managed to pull were impressive, except for your Washington victory, which was a loss...

 

[Doshin]

I can also remember the Washington and Montezuma games. Those were all very difficult maps.[ The victories you managed to pull were impressive,

except for your Washington victory, which was a loss...

Story of my civ career. "Impressive... except for the fact that you lost. But still. Good job!"

 

[Smilingrogue]

@ Doshin

Congrats on the win, nicely done!

That screenshot you posted has a bunch of Guided Missiles in there. Are they actually ever useful? I get that they are cheap at only 40 hammers per, if memory serves, but aren't they single target only when it comes to collateral? I never figured out a use for them.

 

[Doshin]

@ Doshin

Congrats on the win, nicely done!

That screenshot you posted has a bunch of Guided Missiles in there. Are they actually ever useful? I get that they are cheap at only 40 hammers per, if memory serves, but aren't they single target only when it comes to collateral? I never figured out a use for them.

They're inferior to Fighters and Bombers. Their use comes chiefly from the fact that any number can be built and moved into a single city in a single turn.

If you look at the screenshot, you'll see that 6 of the 8 Guided Missiles had been moved that turn. It's been a while since I played that game, but I must have built them in far flung cities on the turn I moved my army out to invade. Once they're in the port that holds your navy, they can be instantly loaded onto Missile Cruisers or Submarines, even though they've consumed their movement point.

If you capture an AI city, that city can only hold 4 air units, and receive 1 land unit per turn (at least, until an Airport is whipped). So again, if you instantly transport 50 Guided Missiles from one continent to another, that's going to help.

As for their uses... well, they replace Fighters and Bombers in allowing 2-movement armies to function without siege. I tend to use them to bombard away cultural defense on inland cities, and perhaps weaken the top few defenders in a city. At that point, you should have enough CR III Tanks and/or Drill IV Mech Infantry to clean up the other units without the help of collateral.

Oh, and (like Airships/Fighters/Bombers) they're a good unit to help win naval battles. Throw a Guided Missile or two at the AI's top defender, send in a Battleship, cause some collateral, and soon enough your Destroyers will get winning odds against Missile Cruisers.

tl;dr?

Spoiler :

They're not very good.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Nukes > guided missiles by miles if you can build tac nukes.

 

[Doshin]

Pretty much.

Although neither come close to hurting the all-powerful Executive.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

I'd like to see an early UN win.

Ah! Yes, so would I. I doubt it can be oh-so-super early, though.

Anyways, I've played 5 turns...

Spoiler :

I would have liked to play more but I couldn't let such a beautifully intricate situation pass without pausing for a little camera action.

So 1 turn is 10 years, now. I didn't mention, previously, that Gandhi has built the AP and that we are in control. That's fine since it opens up future possibilities (e.g. world war on Saladin/Pacal to build up diplo with Cyrus/Joao).

So... 4-5 cities were spotted that could grow and, hopefully, generate GPs in the incoming golden ages. Istanbul, Eridu, 2x food island cities. Not much mainland apart from our National Epic.

Passed the turn, traded for Engineering with Sumeria (nice!). Declared war on India and landed our units (1010 AD). Sieged Longbow cities, stormed Pikeman city (1020). Stormed Longbow cities (1030 AD).
I didn't have the forces to capture Indian cities on our mainland and siege Delhi, so plan was to capture the 3 cities, then consolidate and siege Delhi with our whole force...

... However, 1050 AD, healing isn't complete, we're 1 turn from Great Person, Nationalism is researched (cause GA from Taj Mahal is much better than picking one tech further from Liberalism)...

... sheesh! Gilgamesh. No way you'll leave me be, right? (kidding, that's fair enough)

Spoiler :

So now that it has grown with a great deal of time and effforts... I may have to whip Nampo. I'll also have to upgrade some units (archer -> X-Bow would be ok value).
The Golden Age is delayed: we're in no shape. And how am I supposed to find the production to build the Taj Mahal?
And the army... I suppose it is lucky I couldn't land by Delhi. We can (we will) take peace with the Indians and march the army back.

Spoiler :

Got about 300 gold from city captures. Will get a minor tribute. Shaved a little of Gandhi's research power. I suppose it's good overall but things didn't go as I hoped. Gandhi has just completed the University of Sankore and Notre Dame in Delhi and Bombay... Too bad, it was just the perfect time to strike him. I'm sure he'll be much stronger if ever I return. I need critical mass. I've completely ignored that the last games I played and it is somewhat silly.
I don't think it's reasonable to keep the war going on with Gandhi, time to make peace with Gilgamesh. Better take 1 peace, repel Sumeria and capture a few of their cities.

Goodbye, perfect opportuniy:

Spoiler :

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Pretty much.

Although neither come close to hurting the all-powerful Executive.

I once thought workers/execs impossible to kill, so I worldbuildered in a stack of 100's of nukes and fired them all on 1 city.

I forget whether it was a worker or exec, but it was gone. Interesting, but impractical.

Workers/execs are truly annoying in nuke times.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Workers/execs are truly annoying in nuke times.

Do you mean non-military units (Missionaries, too?) generally absorb nuke damage like catapults absorb collateral?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Pretty much.

Although neither come close to hurting the all-powerful Executive.

Do you mean non-military units (Missionaries, too?) generally absorb nuke damage like catapults absorb collateral?

I think it's a different thing; these units have no health and I suspect (though I have forgotten if it's truly the reason) that their lack of health is why they're surviving these nuclear blasts like super cockroaches.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Ah! Yes, so would I.

(like to see an early UN win.)

1110 AD:

Spoiler :

I'm not sure it can happen, though. And I'm not sure you'd learn much from this one. All that is missing and relevant to a win is:
- GS production via golden age;
- Adjusting the Joao/Cyrus attitude to Friendly. If that fails, diplomation is an option.

I have flaws in my game, such as finding it highly entertaining to "walk the thin line" while keeping some kind of balance.
That means that, comes 1000 AD, I'm still at the point where RNG is a relevant success/fail factor. Really it is somewhat stupid. Also, my rag-tag army of galleons is horrid and I keep making fancy invasion plans... Eek!

Spoiler :

Looking cool? I lost that force. Captured Uruk, first, but didn't spread units properly and Gilgamesh took the city back with 2 units rolleyes. Couldn't take it back again. What I did was keeping a full health X-bow to protect my veteran Maces, instead of supporting my garrison Longbow.
Considering how I skipped a coastal city to capture Uruk earlier with minimal forces... that was not very good strategy. It was... baaad.
Notice the ongoing siege of Nampo: Castle defences slowly decrease from 125%. There was no need to rush like I did (and keep doing...). At least that part I played safe (spending 400g in upgrades and reinforcing consistently with Longbows, X-Bows and Maces).


So... well, I'm not sure I'm in a state of mind fitted to winning a war (see my adventures in Bismark University for more silly DoW action... and a better GA setup).
Maybe I'll reload and replay into this, in a more secure manner... I'm not sure. I don't want to enter a replay spree. Replay has little value during a Lib race, finally, since the AI's tech choices are based on RNG (and thus it is random whether they delay Liberalism for ever or not).
Also, I'm not that well set up for the golden age. National Epic is the only city producing GPP. Others I didn't grow. Might have 3 cities (tops) contributing GPP in the Taj Mahal's GA.
I've been amazed, recently, by the power of National Wonders Cities but it is no excuse to producing GPs only from one city and units only from one other.

That game is already stretched, doing 5 or 6 things simultaneously when it could focus on 1 or 2 (then again, that's what I find amusing...).

@: the map and an early diplo win:

Spoiler :

Hemispheres it is. Astronomy is bound to play a role in the game and should be a major objective (either via Liberalism or straight bulb).

Meeting Gandhi or Mehmed early via workboat should be a strong incentive to settle an early coastal city.
In preparation for a water map, the best 2nd city for this map is 1NE of my location (also Doshin's location): 2W1S of the fish, 2W1N of the horses, 1E of the cows, 2N of the marble. It is difficult to scout, however (we didn't ) since it requires to spot the fish and have AH researched.

Whatever the early strategy is, settling islands should be near-top priority. 2nd city coastal is best fitted for that task (and can as well attempt to build the GLH, if it's a strong production site, such as the aforementioned location).

Astronomy unlocks Physics to Mass Media. Getting Astronomy and chaining Golden Ages to bulb into Physics / Electricity is the manner to get there fast.

 

[chessplaya]

Immortal, Normal, to 250 BC

Spoiler :

Note: I reloaded quite a few times to get this result, but I tried to avoid using hidden information as much as possible. I intend this more as a demonstration of what is possible using a neat strategy that I discovered than as a serious game.

I didn't get the memo about not founding early religions--in fact, I founded 3 of them!

I had originally planned to settle on the plains hill 2N, but after the warrior move and partial settler move I decided to instead settle 2N1W for 2 reasons:
1. There is a grass hill 2W, which could fix my hammer issues, and the other tiles to west also appear to be green. The dry rice doesn't hurt either.
2. I see water to the east, so settling on the PH could result in a lot of overlap with a future fish city to the east.

Spoiler :

Early tech path was Ag->Wheel->Pottery(floodplain cottages can be better than mines for settlers/workers, esp. with financial)->AH->Poly->PH->Masonry->Mono->Writing->Theology (Oracle)->BW. My second city was settled on the marble. Oracle was completed in 1760, while founding Judaism in 1920 BC and Christianity in 1760 BC:

Spoiler :

Next was Fishing, Alphabet (trade for Sailing, IW, Med, and Hunting), CoL (founded Confucianism in 650BC), and Math while building a temple and running a priest specialist in the capital for 6 turns to prepare for a CS bulb in 400 BC:

Spoiler :

After this I traded for Monarchy (same turn; must avoid this earlier or else the prophet bulbs Divine Right), revolted to Buero+HR, and teched currency. In 250BC I have 5 cities with room for 3-4 more, and I get 156BPT at 100% science (107BPT sustainable), and that's without an academy! Here's the tech situation:

Spoiler :

I read somewhere on CFC that Oracle->Theo is a good option for cultural victories, but it seems much more versatile than that. Probably it would work well for any start with gold in the BFC and marble nearby, especially if we can get an early CS bulb.