Immortal University 96 - Wang Kon

@ Tall German Joe

Nice game! :goodjob:
Spoiler :
Six religions founded by Gilgamesh? I wouldn't have expected that from him. :lol: And weird how the aggressors call to stop a war. Pacal's cease fire call is just hilarious. Why bother with the one turn war if he's going to cancel it via UN anyway? :crazyeye:


@ Doshin

Nice Hwachaphant rush! :) Could you post a screenshot of the world tech picture?
 
@Smilingrogue

Congrats on the win! And sure. 640 AD, post-capitulation:

Spoiler :






Metal Casting masks the fact that I am down Machinery and Engineering as well.
 
@ Tall German Joe

Nice game! :goodjob:
Spoiler :
Six religions founded by Gilgamesh? I wouldn't have expected that from him. :lol: And weird how the aggressors call to stop a war. Pacal's cease fire call is just hilarious. Why bother with the one turn war if he's going to cancel it via UN anyway? :crazyeye:


@ Doshin

Nice Hwachaphant rush! :) Could you post a screenshot of the world tech picture?

@Smilingrogue

Spoiler :

oh, no no, he didn't found them himself! just that conquest gave me access to 6 different religions total; buddhism and taoism popped from gandhi, christianity from i think saladin, and judaism and islam from pacal. before the war, i had access to only 1 (confuscianism, which I founded, although later i got buddhist and muslim pops myself) before conquering all his cities. thanks again for being so open-minded, giggles! :goodjob:

p.s., grats on your win!
 
@Doshin:
Spoiler :
Interesting. Cities 2-3 fit nicely. Coastal city is only 4th and, thus, a little late. I wonder if, with a little better map reading, city 2 couldn't be coastal, build GLH and allow for a much better research/REXing game.

I understand the rationale behind the south-west city 2 as well. I don't like it too much because that city is weak but it's conveniently placed.
So many options on this map! Just no stone.

@Hwachaphant: hmm...
Seems like your economy took a hard hit. Losing Oracle and southern spot early didn't help you, for sure.
Mehmed/Gandhi are at war... Is any of them winning?
You might have a hard time facing those two as vassal/master. Depending on tech levels, it might be a good idea to keep your army on the move, or else you might have to delete units/maximize garrisons (any national wonder, yet? Moai looks like a must-build to me).
You'll have a nice continent, eventually, so catching up should be doable (hint, hint: Constitution). Not necessarily easy, though.

Maybe you started whipping hardcore 1 tech too early. Dunno... I make it sound as if it were a lost game but you're definitely in a good position, haha. You'll just have to be a little careful, I suppose.
 
@Smilingrogue

Congrats on the win! And sure. 640 AD, post-capitulation:

Spoiler :






Metal Casting masks the fact that I am down Machinery and Engineering as well.

Spoiler :

It looks like Gandhi has guilds too.
 
@Smilingrogue

Congrats on your 1924 AD (which for me is super early Space Race :)) victory :goodjob: I peeked into your save and positive income with 100% slider and a pop. 23 city with no unhealthiness is just impressive :goodjob:
 
My take, 1000 BC to 1AD, with t100 and t104 stops:
Spoiler :
T100:
With the mainland mostly covered, kept up with expansion and settled 2 offshore cities. This let Gandhi settle in the north of our landmass. And this is something I can't complain about: we'll most likely end up pleased/friendly with Gandhi (Judaism will spread) and this city gives us a good target for espionage. If Gandhi ends up very advanced, we can easily catch up with Constitution (Jails!).

After trading Aesth -> Alpha and researching Literature, Currency was the major tech target.
Now we're building wonders, expanding, building infrastructure, lacking workers...

T100. From north to south:
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… And... when Gilgamesh could have tried to settle or capture the hilly barb city, that's also the time when he, instead, started plotting against us, his only valid target. A thing you surely already had noticed... That was a fine point to lose the game since it demanded immediate reaction (non-existent military). Ensued some pretty difficult turns.
I actually replayed them as I initially underestimated the Sumerian menace. And so I found it convenient to have planned a t100 save, lol. I wished I could have reached 1AD without that trouble.
Also, I didn't realize, first try, that archers would defend before axemen against vultures. That makes a mixed force of archers/axes a very awkward combination against vultures/chariots (leaves axes as last defenders against chariots). Finally: 20% cultural defences = baaad. Archers die to Vultures at 20%.

So. I didn't interrupt the infra builds but wonder production was stopped in Seoul and Nampo. With three chops, it allowed to get Walls and 3 units in 4 turns. A 4th unit could barely be cold whipped when war occurred. It was, like, soon:
Spoiler :


With Currency finally researched, this was a good turn to lay down a plan. Either we researched Code of Laws and headed towards Civil Service... Either we tried and get Construction but Maths was only known by Mehmed and it would take a while before we could trade for it (so Construction is a very expensive choice)... Either we researched Machinery, getting Crossbows and taking a step towards bulbing Astronomy with GS.
Demanded gold from cautious Mehmed (that Gilgamesh could bribe...), got a peace deal and a diplo hit. This is lucky, I guess. Since it meant we wouldn't get very good relations with Mehmed anytime soon (Mehmed, whose worst enemy is Gandhi), that flipped the balance towards researching Machinery and skipping Code of Laws.
I could do with killing Gilgamesh, killing Mehmed, reaching other hemisphere, stealing from Gandhi and winning UN.
Not sure how Liberalism fits into this. At 1 AD, Mehmed founded Code of Laws and Gandhi is researching Philosophy. I hold Metal Casting on them (Colossus finally in progress) but that probably won't last long. Machinery is just researched and that monopoly should hold longer.
Question now is Compass (maybe a little early to time with the bulb, unless I just want to bulb once into Astro... which should probably be the play) vs … Mathematics (still! HG built on other continent. Locks us from Music, an appealing tech that unlocks Constitution), Code of Laws (I don't have Meditation so Philo bulb is locked and things are safe that way. I don't want to unlock the Paper bulb, either.)

The plan:
Spoiler :


At 1AD:

The war has been stalled. I'm not willing to sacrifice research at this point. Already sacrificed plenty of turns on wonders. Axemen have favourable odds in the field against Vultures, so I countered Gilgamesh a little. Lost axemen doing so but it prevented him from consolidating a siege, as he retreated behind the river. We had a stand-off, there, while we re-built the cow pasture that Glgamesh had smashed. Two workers (out of our 6!!) were necessary to help on defence and maintain Wonsan. Build one spear, then another, replaced axemen, some swords for all-around purpose...
Now copper city, in the north, has forge + barracks and another city is almost there. This will help, especially since we can now build (and 2 pop whip) X-Bows. Protective trait didn't really impact the decision to get Machinery but I can't complain, here. Extra promotions on our top unit won't hurt. Hwachas would be welcome too, soon, but I'd rather not research Mathematics. Surely we can trade for it by the time Optics is done or shortly after.

Our third offshore city is almost online. We're grabbing nice resources, there (and greatly reduce the Ottoman sphere of influence/research potential).

From north to south:
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We're not researching Code of Laws, by the way. That's just for the screenshot. Compass -> Optics is the way. We've only generated 1 GP so far (hired 0 speciaslist until now!) so the next guy, a great scientist from Wonsan, will be born shortly. Once the Great Librar is done (if it's done, it's getting late), Nampo will make 12gpp with 2 specialists, 200 are needed for astro bulb, that's 17 turns. Maybe we can fit in the National Epic... not sure, yet.


Stats:
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Techs:
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Demographics:
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I didn't play with map knowledge but I've read, maybe, 4 other shadows, not all, and I think that, in a general manner, not enough emphazis has been put on offshore expansion. We have an inland start but offshore offers great possibilities and we can know this early. Also, conquest land seems a little weak with that desert between Gilgamesh and us. Oh well...

Save is attached. Oh I wonder which one.
 

Attachments

@Smilingrogue

Congrats on your 1924 AD (which for me is super early Space Race :)) victory :goodjob: I peeked into your save and positive income with 100% slider and a pop. 23 city with no unhealthiness is just impressive :goodjob:

The final save is a bit misleading. I was building wealth in a lot of cities, well, the governor was as I automated production. This explains all the positive cash flow. I built a lot of useless stuff that delayed me as I started playing sloppy by turn 280 or so. (Stopped checking cities and simply queued up stuff from the Domestic Advisor screen and this led to the wrong buildings going to wrong cities or stuff like cities with factories building Intelligence Agencies before Coal Plants. :crazyeye:)

Health is very easy to get in a Space Race. Grocers, Supermarkets and Recycling centres easily take care of any health problems. Sushi and Cereal Mills might complicate things as they can make cities really large and the pop adds unhealthiness, but it's generally not a problem. Happiness was a pain in the butt to maintain though. As the stats screen shot shows, I had 39 workshops. I had zero cottages that needed to be grown and most were captured fully developed from AIs. I even tore a few down to spread irrigation, gain production via watermills in hammer poor cities and what not. So Emancipation was a waste for me and I never swapped out of Caste for the State Property + Caste boost to Workshops. Had to build cathedrals and Colosseums at one point just to keep citizens working. :lol:

@ BornInCantaloup

Spoiler :
Nice work beating Giggles back. Are you still at war? Aren't you worried about settling cities snuggling so close to Mehmed, even if they are off-shore? He is the most dangerous AI right now as he builds a TONNE of units and might just declare on you instead of Gandhi as your cities are closer to his cap. Looking forward to your progress, good luck! :)
 
This is how my cities shook out.

Spoiler :

Civ4ScreenShot0000_zpse7aabc00.jpg


Pyongyang was my 2nd city and grabbed horses + marble. Wonsan was next to help grow the riverside cottages. Nampo claimed metal and was my planned HE site. I wanted a coastal HE city on this map b/c i knew i would need ships to invade Gandhi and Mehmed. I settled Pusan next on my way to attacking Chelalis which was a barb city. I put the NE in Pusan, but once i got communism it was a killer production site and built a lot of my spaceship parts. Cheju was my last city and basically a filler to use the other iron. I built the Moai Statues there though and it was a pretty nice city after that. Unfortunately it was one of the two that Mehmed boated, so i lost most of my buildings and had to rebuild the place.

I basically let Gilgamesh settle the jungle to the north. The one site that i wanted that he beat me to was west of the capitol. The land there wasn't stellar but it could've helped grow cottages. He settled aggressively towards me early and caught me off guard a bit. I thought i would have more time to grab that spot.

Here's Seoul late in the game (in a golden age). I think I'm the only one that settled on the Incense.
Civ4ScreenShot0012_zps7883efa1.jpg


And the end of the game...
Civ4ScreenShot0013_zpsd7b3b19f.jpg

 
@ BornInCantaloup

Spoiler :
Nice work beating Giggles back. Are you still at war? Aren't you worried about settling cities snuggling so close to Mehmed, even if they are off-shore? He is the most dangerous AI right now as he builds a TONNE of units and might just declare on you instead of Gandhi as your cities are closer to his cap. Looking forward to your progress, good luck! :)

Spoiler :
Yes, we're still at war. My 5 unit stack is a mobile one. The two forests in my territory are pretty annoying, btw: they play in his advantage.
As for Mehmed, I'm not sure I risk a diplo hit with Mehmed for contesting water tiles. I don't believe I do.
Also... this is a clock. I might just die. Or I might just get the upper hand. I'm getting Trireme and Archers, soon. Maybe Axeman will garrison an island city, too... I don't know how the situation will develop with Gilgamesh. If he's willing to offer peace, then I'll probably take it. Maybe gaining techs? That would be nice. Finally, I'd better hope I am the one invading the Ottomans, since I've just made a demand out of them... Guaranteeing no bribe. I'll certainly not adopt Confucianism, this I can tell. Wanna tech up and Gandhi is the better partner.
 
I had zero cottages that needed to be grown and most were captured fully developed from AIs. I even tore a few down to spread irrigation, gain production via watermills in hammer poor cities and what not.

That's the biggest enigma I'm currently struggling with, but I guess it's because I'm living in the Research=Cottages paradigm :) Yep, I get it that State Property helps a lot with :hammers: But getting like 4000 :science: :eek: without cottages :eek: That is a huge mystery I hope I one day will sort out :)
 
Yes, I'm down many techs. :p It shouldn't matter, because the economy is strong (Financial), Gandhi and Mehmed are at war, and I'll beeline Astronomy (for overseas trade routes) while ordering my vassal to tech towards Chemistry. With enough early cities and a strong army, it's fine not to win Liberalism. And there are usually one or two backward civs on a watery map (Buddhism and Hinduism were founded elsewhere, it's "our" area of the world experiencing religious solidarity).

Gilgamesh is one of the worst AIs to border early on. He's very aggressive... second tier, perhaps. Think Tokugawa/Mehmed/Victoria level, but not quite as psychotic as Shaka or Napoleon or Genghis Khan. What's worst: he's Protective (which makes early rushes harder), his UU comes with Bronze Working (AIs become more aggressive with access to their UU) and the UU is actually pretty good (esp. for the AI, which rely on brute force and numbers to win wars rather than skill... which is why Julius Caesar is 1000x better at warring than, e.g., Montezuma).

@BiC

Spoiler :
I didn't even think about building the GLH. I didn't tech Animal Husbandry for quite some time, partly due to the misguided Oracle attempt, and without AH, the Fish site is much less attractive. I only like to tech AH when I have access, or will shortly have access to, two good animal resources (Plains Hill Sheep counts for half). So I teched it shortly after city #3 was producing culture. It was then that I revealed the Horses.

With retrospect, the GLH would have been a stronger play. :)

Fighting Gilgamesh shouldn't be incredible tough. Whip Walls in his target city, and then spam Archers elsewhere to help reinforce. These are the most cost effective units available, since they receive inherent bonuses when defending a city and benefit from the protective trait.

You will lose several Archers during the first attack (stupid Vultures), but soon you will have several Drill IV Archers (or CG III) which will stonewall any force until Catapults. If you're still fighting at that point, Hwachas should help (immune to collateral, innate strength of 7.5 vs Vultures. And you can promote a few to Shock).
 
Congratulations for 1000th post, Doshin! About your AI analysis:
Spoiler :
JC has been my neightbor only 1 or 2 times but disagree with you. Shaka and Monty are always the most annoying neightbors. There is no way to stop 'em to DoW on you! If JC is your neightbor you can choose to be his enemy or be his friend. These were only my noobish thoughts but I'd like to here more accurate explanation about why JC for example is tougher than Shaka. Thanks.
 
Congratulations for 1000th post, Doshin! About your AI analysis:
Spoiler :
JC has been my neightbor only 1 or 2 times but disagree with you. Shaka and Monty are always the most annoying neightbors. There is no way to stop 'em to DoW on you! If JC is your neightbor you can choose to be his enemy or be his friend. These were only my noobish thoughts but I'd like to here more accurate explanation about why JC for example is tougher than Shaka. Thanks.

I am not Doshin, but I can try and answer this one. The toughest AIs are always the ones that expand well, build a lot of units and most importantly, tech and trade well. Shaka and Monty are amongst the most dangerous AIs at the start. They are likely to ruin a Civ's game with their stupid "Must kill! Rawr!!" attitude. But as the game progresses, they start becoming less and less threatening. They don't tech well at all and will not trade with other AIs much either. Getting attacked by Swordsmen at 1000 BC is scary. Getting attacked by Swordsmen at 200 AD when we have Longbows or Crossbows? That's just free XP and more land to annex.

What makes AIs like Julius Caesar, Catherine, Charlie, Justinian really scary is that they expand like mad. (Imp helps). They build a lot of units, Charlie and Cathy slightly less than the others, but he is still a tough as nails dude to kill due to Protective. They all tech well too. Being Organised combined with the AI bonuses generally means Caesar basically gets free cities. Charlie and Justinian almost always found religions and shrine them for a nice income. Catherine is a pretty solid techer too.

Of all the AIs, JC is probably the most practical. He doesn't like others easily and plots at Pleased. Unless the guy on the other side is Protective himself, he will be crushed under Praetoreans which will then become Maces, then Rifles, etc. as he won't stop teching and he will trade well too, unlike Sitting Bull and Tokugawa.
 
Monarch 1820 AD Domination

Spoiler :
First off I SIP, decided to be friends with Giggles until I Libb'ed MT and capped him. Early game strategy was pretty standard, peacefully expanded to 8 cities IIRC. Also meant Gandhi and Mehmed. Mehmed thought he was a tough guy and declared on me right before I declared on Giggles. I took peace with him quickly b/c I didn't have my galleons ready to transport. Giggles had the GLH which was so nice of him to build for me!

Next I capped Mehmed b/c of his earlier DOW, he is a big unit spammer but it wasn't really that challenging. Next was Gandhi, which of course he fell quickly. At this point I had about 35 cities so the Great Abuse House was pulling my economy along.

I'm getting pretty close to domination at this point, decided to hit the next weakest AI which was Saladin. He went quickly followed by Pacal.

I never really spent time to play with the navy in this game, also I have little experience with intercontinental warfare so I took my time, hence the late victory date. But I have heard navy micro can be very tedious and a pain in the butt. But this game I found it to be pretty enjoyable. My destroyers smashing into AI frigates was funny! My tech lead was far ahead.

I guess its probably time for me to play at Emperor, which I have won a handful of times, then if I really want a challenge Immortal. But sometimes I just want a enjoyable not hair pulling out frustrating game! Overall fun map.


I'm glad everybody enjoyed the map! :devil:

Edit: Over 300 posts! Woot Woot!!
 
The Hwachapult continues.

I moved my troops to the north and thought about sniping a couple of Gandhi's cities:

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...but I decided against the idea, since the two cities didn't have much to offer, whereas Gandhi as a tech partner did.

The empire at this point:

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Mehmed captured a couple of Gandhi's island cities. But he had trouble taking anything more substantial:

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I teched Civil Service ---> Compass ---> Optics ---> Astronomy. Two Caravels were whipped... one on each coast. Eventually they came full circle:

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I managed to snag the circumnavigation bonus, despite Gandhi and Mehmed having Optics well before me. Whoop.

With Astronomy in, I decided to show Mehmed how to properly invade Gandhi:

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That was enough to capitulate Gandhi. But I wanted to take one last city, containing the Jewish shrine:

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Next it'll be Mehmed's turn. :hammer:

---

@Robert

Spoiler :
You're not a noob any more, even if you're not quite yet a Deity-crushing pro. ;)

Smilingrogue summarizes the matter very well. Julius Caesar snowballs better than most AI. He expands quickly and aggressively, and his early game UU is strong enough to overcome most early defenders. Jaguar Warriors and Impis cannot climb over Walls. Praetorians punch right through them. Only Sitting Bull causes him real trouble, thanks to his super Archers.

Shaka, Montezuma, and Genghis Khan are much easier to deal with than JC when it comes to diplomacy. They can be bribed to war at Cautious, so just make sure that you have 2-3 big techs to do so by the time Alphabet comes around. On Deity, I will often tech Aesthetics, trade with another AI for Alphabet, trade with another for Monarchy, and then use Aesthetics + Alpha + Monarchy to bribe S/M/GK to declare war against somebody else.

Montezuma also often founds a religion and is a minor zealot (not quite as much as Izzy, but he definitely cares). You can use this to your advantage.

pigswill played an Immortal game in which Julius Caesar got out of control. You should download some of the later saves to see the size of JC's army: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=480987
 
@ Doshin

Nice work! :)
Spoiler :
Who won Lib and what did they take? Also, gotta love that Gandhi has Sci. Meth. but still only has Longbows as the best defender. :lol:
 
IMM/Normal

1844 Domination/Conquest

Spoiler :




No struggles here. With early gold, I went the safe route, making warriors and archers while growing to 6 after a worker. I then spammed out some cities while under-worker'd and just kept some archers on border cities. Due to murphys law, this meant giggles wouldn't attack of course lol.

I grabbed great library, sistine, and several other nice wonders while brokering early techs around. Gandhi grabbed confuc and it spread to mehmed (I missed confuc by like 2 turns!). I promptly bulbed taoism and that was the religion on my continent...easy friendly gilgamesh right? Wrong, he builds Paya and goes FR :rolleyes:.

Still, at pleased I just kept betting 1g off him and kept a log of when I did it via on-screen notes. Ironically he wound up plotting on nobody all game. I was going to simply use him to go culture via defensive pact...but then I realized the situation wasn't right for it. Culture is best in stable diplo situations...but both of them hated ghandi and the world religious situation was very diverse. So, I beat everybody to rifles by 4+ techs instead (cottage carpet, bulbs off TGL, etc) and used globe + culture slider to draft out a ton of rifles. I killed gilgamesh outright, allowing me to draft even more rifles. I had 50+ when I invaded mehmed, who still could only get replaceable parts. I took two cities and killed some units in the 3rd and he capitulated. Wait, what? Well, the cities I took to start the war I took *amphibiously*. Mehmed was plotting war, and from what I could tell, he had his stack locked onto frigates/galleons, which got sunk in port.

Gandhi shared a similar fate; sunk all the ships in his capitol and sat there with protective high-drill rifles while I took the only remaining non-korean city on my continent, easy capitulation. Sal/Pacal were fighting, and despite sal having grenadiers he wasn't quite to rifles yet so I dumped some rifles on his shores and bombarded with 10+ frigates I'd whipped up for some easy captures. Because he was a "land target" of Pacal easy cap. Pacal was also an easy capitulation; he had rifles but I had some cannons over there, and with 5 xp cannons and some airships (lots of vassals, lots of easy tech brokering) + stack murder he capped after a single city too.

Last was Joao/Cyrus together. They had a defensive pact unfortunately. Joao had tanks early in this fight, but I'd at least brokered around and was starting to land arty + infantry (though I had a ton of standing rifle forces + cannons that I landed too). I brokered into combustion to field destroyers + transports which are far more sturdy vs Joao's metal navy. After takin 4-5 cities of cyrus, I took a cease fire with Joao, capped cyrus, then instantly re-declared. After Joao took one of cyrus' cities, I retook it with CR III + CR II arty, then took another of Joao's cities with my split stack. I guess having many times his total power + land target rules (cyrus) was enough and Joao capped only a few turns into that "new war".

In the end tech picture, I was officially #2, and only a single tech (industrialism) behind Joao due to making a bunch of trades on the turn I capped Joao. This despite never topping 700 beakers/turn, ever.

During my conquest of Mehmed or so I had communism incoming so I workshopped everything but my capitol. I knew at that point I didn't actually need much more research, due to vassal brokering. I was right, and none of the intercontintal wars were even challenging after I cheeseballed mehmed's army in port.



Made good use of both traits :mischief:.
 
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