Immortal University V - Cyrus of Persia

@Patagonia

Spoiler :


Personally I would still go for Hattie unless you want to attack Isabella which I don't think you do. Pacal/Churchill are to far away to join in a war against so Hattie is the obvious choice. I'm in the same position as you I've played up to one turn from Lib and about to take steel 1200AD. But Hattie has already built the Taj in my game and has mil trad. So any cannons I build will be subject to flank attacks so now I've got to research rifling for defence purposes. Has she got Mil Trad in your game? If so some formation curaissers might be in order and if you have enough troops attack now but carry on researching rifling. Good luck on whatever you decide.
 
@ Patagonia
Spoiler :

An amphibious invasion of Egypt with Cannons/Cuirassiers could be difficult (as neither receives a defensive bonus). Unless Hatsh is still in the Medieval Era. Since rifles/cavs are so close I'd wait and go for a safer war.

I'm not a Cuirassier expert, but from my limited experience they rely on speed and open battlegrounds -- you may be a little too slow here, but I'd be happy to be proved wrong :)

How do you plan on dealing with the colonial maintenance after assimilating Egypt? (I might be too scared of this feature myself, :dunno: )

I'll comment more when I can open your save (if you haven't played already).
 
Until +/- 500 AD
Spoiler :

I began with moving the settler 2 north, next turn i settled one further north, i lose the river bonus this way but keep 2 plain hills. I thought i made a very good move here, at the cost of 1 turn i've been given a headstart on blocking and despite there being 4 desert tiles in my capital's BFC it has more commerce power then the begin situation. Since i already have a blocking situation as if i've founded my second city i gather i can be a bit slow with my second settler so after AH i go wheel with an eye on pottery and cottaging the three floodplains.

In the meantime we all know this is not a blocking but a rushing situation, i should have seen this already after AH probably and go mining bw next. As it is i tech wheel first. Again after Wheel i should have gone mining but now i gather that pottery and 3 early cottages let me get mining and BW earlier.

All this means is that i have to self build workers and the settler before BW is in, slowing me down considerably. Early wheel lets me build a road to the horses somewhat earlier but i have to chop everything to be able to declare on KK around 950 with around 11 immortals still building immortals. I'd seen that he didn't have metals connected but there was some risk that he'd reach keshniks in time.

All in all the war doesn't go really bad, i pillage horses immediately (Keshnik danger) but KK just has lots of units build already so for instance i face 5 archers some with garrison on the hills of Beshalik also for each city i take he founds a new city elsewhere so i chase him all over the map building immortals non stop.

At last i take his last city down 275 BC. Compared to Patagonia and Olodune
i'm 450 years slow, compared to Sleepless 800 years (impressive, these horse rushes should be done as early as possible, once there's defence up they're hard to execute). All i have to show for this are 3 mature towns near my capital. I have saved 500 gold and writing's in so with help of scientists i should be able to reach Col fairly soon. Reaching Col is not enough unfortunaty, building courts let's you go from deficit gold at 0% to some 30%, i really need currency and some neighbours.

I reach Col without too much problems, building/chopping/whipping some courthouses, a workboat explores and finds isabella, Hatsephut and Churchill.
The trade routes from Izzy help me researching currency , after which the situation definitely improves. I'm in reasonable shape now.

As for wonders not a chance. Not that i build many usually but not getting the GL while i've got marble is a bit of a shame.


@Patagonia
Spoiler :

The combination of cuirassiers and cannons seems a bit odd to me, cuirassiers/cavalry work best with spies in a blitz attack while muskets/rifles move in behind to defend the captured cities, now they have to stay with the cannons so their extra movement is mostly useless. So it might have been better to research towards rifling immediately instead of detouring through military tradition.

No big problem though, you're position is great,if you want to attack now i'd build some pikes to defend against egyptian cuirassiers. If you can get to rifles in time without losing your military advantage towards egypt i'd go that way.

 
@Dirk
Spoiler :

Realizing quickly how nicely the situation matches an Immortal rush is key (and very luck dependent). If there were no horses and/or it was more of a blocking situation your start would have been stronger.

Dirk1302 said:
At last i take his last city down 275 BC. Compared to Patagonia and Olodune
i'm 450 years slow, compared to Sleepless 800 years

Not that it matters, but my game was the 1080bc elimination of Mongolia:p I took a big gamble heading into the Kahn's domain so early (~1500bc) -- if I was unable to take his capital a long, slow pillage war would have set me back a long ways. Still, I'm convinced that Immortal rushes are extremely dependent on speed (with copper up north, this game would have been ... interesting).
 
@Dirk
Spoiler :

Realizing quickly how nicely the situation matches an Immortal rush is key (and very luck dependent). If there were no horses and/or it was more of a blocking situation your start would have been stronger.



Not that it matters, but my game was the 1080bc elimination of Mongolia:p I took a big gamble heading into the Kahn's domain so early (~1500bc) -- if I was unable to take his capital a long, slow pillage war would have set me back a long ways. Still, I'm convinced that Immortal rushes are extremely dependent on speed (with copper up north, this game would have been ... interesting).

@Olodune
Spoiler :

Ouch! sorry Olodune. I think the risk you took with going for KK early was rather small compared to the risks i was compelled to take later. I could have been facing Keshniks which would have made the war a very tense affair. I'd probably would have won that war too since i think KK's capital would have fallen anyway and i can pillage horses then, i would have had to deal with the remaining keshniks however meaning building alot more immortals. War could have been going on till well in the AD's in that case. If KK had had copper we would all have been in for a very hard game.

I'm actually not so big on early rushes, in the Monty game there was no choice, no breathing room, in the Khmer and Suleiman game i took the blocking route as soon as i saw it. Alas there was no choice here.
 
Finally got around to starting this - up until 500 BC.
Spoiler :
Settled 1 NW on the silk as hovering over it (and what the scout revealed) proved that there was a river there (fresh water). Turned out to be a good move; only good tiles and a 2 commerce center to compensate for the lost turn.

My scout is running around and I meet Kublai Khan. He's one of my least favourite AIs to rush, but hopefully the UU will compensate. I was still a little dubious, but when I scouted his kick-ass capital and seeing it wasn't on a hill I decided to go for it.

At 3000 BC I've scouted the island but I still know we're not alone with Kublai. I've had more espionage points on him from time to time, which proves he's met someone else. I plan to chop out a work boat as soon as possible in my next city.

I settled for the eastern horse, the other one was too risky even if the city would be better. Barbs would pose a serious problem.

persia+%2330000.JPG


Here, on the other hand, I have an easy time fogbusting. As you can see Kublai founded Hinduism which is a little unlucky for me as the rest of the world won't have as much tension and I have to deal with a hill city with a lot of culture (Beshbalik).

I settled 3 cities before the rush as they all were safe and sound from barbarians and had a lot of forests to chop. Kublai completed the Great Wall ~1400 BC and ~1200 BC he pulls off another wonder, the Great Lighthouse, sweet! You win some you lose some, my earlier bad luck is balanced out.

It's also worth noticing that I skipped pottery and cottages for this rush. They're usually a good bet, but as I knew there would be an "overseas" AI I went for trade routes instead as a source of income. The cottages are usually just emergency cash to avoid strikes, but not necessary if you get 3 commerce trade routes.

I attack at 1000 BC as he has a settler headed out for another city. In the year of 975 BC we attack the capital and run into some more bad luck (note; it has 2 archers and 1 chariot).

- UU loses to archer
- UU loses to archer
- UU loses to archer
- UU loses to archer
- UU loses to chariot

*sigh* The last 3 were >70%. Fortunately I had another immortal waiting and 3 more 1 turn away so I killed the chariot and the rest of the archers the next turn, but it was still quite a scare, good thing I brought extra units.

persia+%2370000.JPG


Anyway, Karakorum is captured 950 BC and Turfan the southern city soon after. I chose to keep Turfan too as it's coastal and because the stone was improved already (thought I'd give the Mids a go as there didn't seem to be any industrious AIs around).

I take Beshbalik at 825 BC and the Mongols are no more. Captured a lot of workers, got like 9 running around. I spent the cash gained rushing through mysticism -> masonry -> polytheism -> aesthetics and just started on literature at 500 BC. I've also completed the Pyramids, so the game is in good shape. Will settle my next city to claim the marble and construct the Parthenon and the GL.
 

Attachments

@Dirk
Spoiler :

@Olodune
I'm actually not so big on early rushes, in the Monty game there was no choice, no breathing room, in the Khmer and Suleiman game i took the blocking route as soon as i saw it. Alas there was no choice here.

I agree that games are more interesting when early rushes are avoided. I haven't played any games with very powerful early UUs in quite a while -- Immortals are just fantastic. Not only to they counter all barbarian units, but they can obliterate an AI on normal speed without breaking a sweat :lol:

Playing peacefully on the "continent" with Kublai would have been difficult, however.
 
@Rusten
Spoiler :

Good job finding Kublai the wonder hog :lol: Getting the GLH for free is a great piece of luck.

Clearly, you are in fantastic shape :goodjob:
 
@Rusten
Spoiler :

Good job finding Kublai the wonder hog :lol: Getting the GLH for free is a great piece of luck.

Clearly, you are in fantastic shape :goodjob:

Spoiler :
Yea, that was a really sweet event. Maybe I should've let him construct the Pyramids for me as well :p

Diplomacy is not as lucky though. Izzy, Churchill and Pacal won't like me as a hinduist. I'm considering going for the Swvjhargaeg Paya and free religion in order to stay friendly with her. Clearly losing pacifism is a big blow, but if I construct the Parthenon the GP rate might work out anyway. :dunno: Will give it some more thought before proceeding with the game.
 
840-1440AD

Spoiler :


The idea of these turns was to set up an attack on Hattie with cannons/maces and grenadiers. First the good news I was first to Lib.

Civ4ScreenShot0000.jpg


I had delayed it for quite a bit and managed to pick up steel. Now the bad news Hattie built the Taj this turn and already had Mil Trad so my cannons were likely to suffer flank attack damage. I decided that it was best to go for rifling as well so that delayed my plans by quite a bit. Luckily one problem was solved.

Cyrus4-Astro0000.jpg


Churchill came with an offer for astro so no need to rely on gallleys to ferry my troops across. I also traded Nat and Const with him. By now all the civs were in merc so my trade route income was nil meaning everything was taking much longer to tech. Hattie has already researched democracy so hopefully she will finish building the SoL. As Hattie controls the AP I'm expecting SB to declare on me so it could get a bit bloody. A couple of turns earlier I swapped civics to Nat/Slavery for drafting/whipping. I'm just about to finish teching Scientific Method then on to Communism for State Property but I'm going to start the war now.

Cyrus4-Hattie0000.jpg


Haven't actually declared yet but will this turn. After Hattie I'm going for SB. Then Isabella who has decided to settle on my island. :eek:Something she will have cause to regret. :mischief:


@Dirk

Spoiler :


It was Olodune who managed the very early rush of Kublai so the :goodjob:goes to him. :)
 

Attachments

500 BC -> 1170 AD
Spoiler :
Peaceful set setting up for future wars and a tech lead.

75 BC Notice a yellow border to the southern coast. Around the same time I've researched CoL and revolt to the pacifism+caste system combo. I was playing around with the idea of shwedagon paya and free religion for diplomacy as I made the parthenon (1 AD), but in the end I decided to adopt hinduism anyway.

- 100 AD I bribe Izzy into war with Pacal (lasted a long time) for alphabet, aesthetics and calendar.

- 250 AD That yellow border pops up on the ocean tile between the islands and I'm greeted by Hatty.

This is a classical setting where Hatty can gain from open borders with me but not vice versa, so I decide to research music. I want to culture bomb Susa; that way I'll reverse the setting - I can get trade routes to her cities but she won't be able to get any from me.



It succeeds.



I hired some artists in the city and later achieved 5000 culture which made it invulnerable. I adopt bureaucracy and OR to please Hatty. I don't want to waste hammers on units that will obsolete soon.

- At 600 AD I notice that liberalism and a tech lead is guaranteed, so I decide to research divine right for the SM. I've already made the UoS so it's a perfect fit. I also want to delay Sci. Method as I have both the Parthenon and the GL.

- I've settled 2 cities on the western island. Unfortunately Izzy beat me to the river and the southern clams.

- At 1150 AD I decide to finish Liberalism and get Steel for free.

- I'm at 1170 AD with 2 turns to go on military science and 1 turn left of my Taj Mahal GA. The AI with the biggest research potential right now is SB, so I'll probably pay him a visit with my army (and later move onto Hatty. For this reason I'm going to revolt out of OR and move into theocracy for better units and to please Izzy. She's currently at cautious, but a civic switch will get her to pleased. It would be easier to finish Izzy, but I'd rather get rid of my main competitors while I have a big tech lead. Sitting Bull has a lot of coastal cities, so my ships of the line+cannons+grens should prove successful.

- Forgot to take a screen of the tech situation, but if you're interested you can just open the save. I've had some bad luck with my great people. Got an artist and a spy at very low odds in Karakorum, but at least I can use them for another golden age or two.

- I'll probably set my civics to Rep/bureau/caste (workshop bonus)/theo. I'm not sure about mercantilism or FM. I guess FM would be beneficial a little more as only Hatty adopted mercantilism, I'll just have to deal with anarchy later (or use my artist/spy on a golden age).

 

Attachments

Cyrus, Chapter 4

600-1090ad
Spoiler :

A short simple sound, focused on more building and liberalism -- with a small interruption by Isabella

We start by proving the earth is round, thanks to the purchase of Egyptian charts.

circ.jpg


Shortly thereafter Liberalism is obtained:

lib_nat.jpg


Nat. is chosen because I built the Mausoleum of Maussollos, and want to get that free Golden Age -- I think this outweighs the benefit of getting a more advanced tech later, but I could be mistaken.

Isabella decides she's had enough:

isabella_d2.jpg


She was already fighting Pacal and I suspect the only reason that she declared war was because her maceman partisans were trapped in no-mans-land.

This opportunity is a good one to take Toledo, the last Spanish city on the island as well as the (unshrined) home of Christianity:

tolodeo.jpg


I stopped the round here.

Techs are still very strong:

big_tech.jpg


As are demographics:

demo_g.jpg


My options are pretty open. Either continue to economic build up (through Democracy) or to hit Rifling and/or cannons. Economic build up may make more sense as I would like Communism (State Prop) before taking a large number of cities on another continent. On the other hand, I could finish off Isabella (possibly as a vassal) taking only 3-4 cities -- so maybe that is the better approach. Either way I'm not in danger of losing.

Actually Isabella has the AP and it could pose a potential problem since Buddhism is widely spread. I'm building missionaries but the safer route is probably to just go and raze her city ... :dunno:
 
@Rusten
Spoiler :

Nice job fixing the Egyptian trade problem -- I didn't think about ways to win that cultural battle. I do have the Sistine Chapel so a buddhist monastery might do the trick. Thanks for the tip :goodjob:
 
1170 AD -> ~1650/1700 AD
Spoiler :
Grenadiers are really good. I always end up surprised at how effective they are for such a long time. I really need to start using them more often. I decided to do a non-whip and non-drafting war. Both because it was suitable (and possibly even the best move) in this situation but also to warm up for ungy02 (succession game). ;) Workshops are really good with chemistry and guilds, no need to draft to get a big army quick. It was a lot of fun to use ships more again too. I really like fractal maps, they let you play the entire game and face different situations depending on the map unlike for instance continents where you can copy your games and get approximately the same results every time.

Continuing where I left off with military science. I decided to start a second golden age after the Taj. The turn after I swapped civics churchill switched to merc, so I needed to update my civics again. Further it meant more hammers and a faster attack. After military science I hurried towards rifling and military tradition. Didn't really have much choice when wanting to avoid Sci. method.

- 1290 AD I bribe Izzy into war with Hatty. I originally wanted to attack SB, but rushing through Hatty seemed easy so I went for her first. My military might is convincing. A HE+bureaucracy hammer capital is really useful for this type of game (workshops/caste system), it can produce units every turn with some overflow, there's more to bureaucracy than the commerce bonus.

- I declare on Hatty around 1400 AD. My initial stack consists of ~20 grens and ~10 cannons, but there's more to follow, that initial stack isn't even half of my current offensive army. Surprisingly Hatty is ready to capitulate after I take only 2 of her cities (smallest ones too); It seems my army is feared. Still I politely declined and wiped her off the map.

- 1480 AD a great artist part-bulbs communism.

- A couple of turns after Hatty is wiped off the map I declare on SB. The war is a cakewalk; my grens, cannons and few cavalry dominate his riflemen and it's pretty similar to the Hatty war, the only thing that's slowing me down is logistics and transport.

- Some time between 1600 and 1650 all of SBs good cities are captured by Persia and I accept his capitulation for the remainder of steam power. The game is pretty much in the bag. Churchill has a lot of land, but he still can't match my empire. My research is booming and increasing every turn so I have plenty of options at this point. The game has gotten really laggy so I don't know if I can motivate myself towards a domination/space win, but I can play at least a couple of more turns and see.
 

Attachments

@Rusten and Olodune

Spoiler :


Just wondering why your AI are so backward? In mine Hattie has built the Taj and already has Mil Trad by 1200AD. Churchill has some nice land and is not too far behind. Is it because I'm to generous with my tech trades?

Noticed the trade route problem with Hattie as well but because I was in Caste System I ran some artists until I got the 3rd border pop for the trade routes. Admittedly I should have closed borders until then. Thinking about it its probably one of the reasons Hatties was teching so well. Note the was. ;)

 
@Rusten and Olodune

Spoiler :

Just wondering why your AI are so backward? In mine Hattie has built the Taj and already has Mil Trad by 1200AD. Churchill has some nice land and is not too far behind. Is it because I'm to generous with my tech trades?

Spoiler :

1200 for Mil Trad and and Taj at 1200 aren't too early -- my Hatch has military science around the same time. I've built the Taj closer to 1150.

That said there are some things slowing down the global tech:

-Churchill, Pacal, and Isabella have been warring (this will take a slightly worrying turn on the next set).

-Sitting Bull has declared on Hatsh.

-Hatty is diplomatically isolated (she founded and adopted Islam), I'm her only trading partner :)

-My Economy is strong enough that I only need to trade when its clearly to my advantage, slowing down the AI.
 
@Rusten and Olodune

Spoiler :


Just wondering why your AI are so backward?
Spoiler :

Pacal/izzy because i bribed them into war. Churchill because he didn't have a trading partner with those two behind. I also researched at an amazing pace personally, so that meant I did no tech trading with the AI; that slowed them down some more. They usually burst sooner or later, but when you slow them down the burst comes later and you can exploit your tech advantage. SB started teching really fast after my 1170 update. He worked his way through astronomy, chemistry, sci. method and physics at an alarming pace, so if I hadn't taken him out he'd be a dangerous contender.
 
Spoiler :

Pacal/izzy because i bribed them into war. Churchill because he didn't have a trading partner with those two behind. I also researched at an amazing pace personally, so that meant I did no tech trading with the AI; that slowed them down some more. They usually burst sooner or later, but when you slow them down the burst comes later and you can exploit your tech advantage. SB started teching really fast after my 1170 update. He worked his way through astronomy, chemistry, sci. method and physics at an alarming pace, so if I hadn't taken him out he'd be a dangerous contender.
Spoiler :
Very perceptive, it teaches me to keep a much closer eye on the AI then I do normally, so thank you for that. :)

What really amazes me though is that you can take so many cities in such a 'small' war. How on earth did you get so many units in such a short period of time? My wars usually last way too long because I can't take cities fast enough, and that is without having to cross a sea. How on earth did you find time to gather all the hammers required to build an army like that?
 
Spoiler :
Very perceptive, it teaches me to keep a much closer eye on the AI then I do normally, so thank you for that. :)

What really amazes me though is that you can take so many cities in such a 'small' war. How on earth did you get so many units in such a short period of time? My wars usually last way too long because I can't take cities fast enough, and that is without having to cross a sea. How on earth did you find time to gather all the hammers required to build an army like that?

Spoiler :
Because I didn't waste citizens on cottages. I believe strongly in food as a source of income and production (whip/specialists) and switching it around in bursts. In this game I didn't do any warfare whipping though, so my production came from workshops, but that's still superior to cottages. I prefer to capture matured towns rather than work them myself. If you're not stuck working cottages you can either produce a lot of beakers or units on demand.

A flexible economy allows maximizing whatever is necessary. In this case it meant that I could war swiftly. After checking the log I see that I started moving towards hatty at 1410 AD and took the last city from SB 1630 AD, even faster than I thought. :goodjob:

kake+1_00000.JPG


 
Spoiler :
Because I didn't waste citizens on cottages. I believe strongly in food as a source of income and production (whip/specialists) and switching it around in bursts. In this game I didn't do any warfare whipping though, so my production came from workshops, but that's still superior to cottages. I prefer to capture matured towns rather than work them myself. If you're not stuck working cottages you can either produce a lot of beakers or units on demand.

A flexible economy allows maximizing whatever is necessary. In this case it meant that I could war swiftly. After checking the log I see that I started moving towards hatty at 1410 AD and took the last city from SB 1630 AD, even faster than I thought. :goodjob:

kake+1_00000.JPG


Spoiler :
Haha, that is both impressive and awesome. I always thought of cottages as the way to go, but you have convinced me that if done properly - I downloaded all your saves to study the art ;) - food and hammers economy can be quite scary indeed. Well played! :goodjob:
 
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