Immortal Univesity VI: Carolus Magnus of the Holy Roman Empire

[Pangaea]

I would definitely not trust worker-settler as that is a genuine gamble, and can't be that much faster than getting a warrior out.

...and then you have the issue of a size 1 city pretty far into the game, that now needs to start growing, while with another approach it is perhaps size 3-4.

Very well played btw. Excellent and early win. Shows how powerful Cuirs are, especially when controlled by an excellent player.

 

[sampsa]

On early tech choices

Spoiler :

I just realized that we don't start with agri, so it's going to be agri-mining-wheel-AH? That's quite a lot of techs... I think skipping AH for a while is a viable option, as Oracle is reasonable choice imo even if you self research masonry. Failgold is good for this start.

I don't think you need to go for early BW, and perhaps part of the reason I did was that I've tried the map before (8-9 years ago) and have read earlier posts.

 

[Snowbird]

Spoiler 540AD :

Well, time goes fast with small empire.
Teched to Aesthetics, traded a bit, made quarry on marble.... (at some point built marble wonders - great library and parthenon, later in the double gold city)
700BC managed to reopen borders with Surry.
500BC managed to get maths from Jao for literature and monoteism. At this point decided to go for music...I think it was mistake overall, since on immortal trading for stuff like currency or col takes forever

200BC Surry DoW.

How on Earth Surry can have cap at size two?

Well, that was rather stupid war all Surry did was that one archer and one spear towards prague... I've seen such nonsense in past then AI declares just to capture worker (I did send one worker through Surry's land), but at this time he did not even captured worker...
For unkown reasons I also kept trade routes and resource trades.... Well, I do not have lots of experience being defender in war...

175BC -- axes (I whipped few) got promoted to shock... events...

150BC... I popped another great artist due to national epic (~5% odds i guess), sigh

75BC traded for ivory... Gilga cancelled the deal just few turns after i managed to trade for construction. Well, Gilga is lonely Confu guy so maybe he does not like me enough to trade strategic... Pitty I could tried elepulting Surry.
At some point i swapped copper for horses with Jao.

25AD gave Surry priesthood to sign peace deal...

75AD -- spies poisoned Prague water (they also destroyed gold mine and silk plantation, screw you Surry)

225AD -- screenshot tells plantation was random events, not spies,

275AD - out of stupid AI's only gilga has meditation, had to tech it mysaelf, in order to bulb philo for pacifism in gold age.

425AD - I hit marriage diplo event with Surry. Well, I am sad there is no option to show other side worse than token gift.
Chain irrigating Prague area, well, units have to come from somewhere.

still 425AD............HC peace vassals under Jao..............
So, I still have 5 cities (proving point of winning without rush), while jao+HC has like 17...
Maybe if I wipe Surry, Gilga and other continent that would be enough... at this point I wish I had Surry's land

500Ad -- Hindu apostolic palace (should wip some temples)

Tech situation at the end (2x bulbed education, bulbed lib, after trade up machinery and stuff)... being small still means I will need some time to get through gunpowder and either Nationalism or MT.

520AD- lib is 4 turns, i've got a spare Great artist (Jao is at friendly and finishing DR, not sure if he will trade between vasal and building wonders) and GS. If i could remove DR in theory GA can bulb Nationalism. Next great person is in ~12-13 turns. GS... should have made academy back in BC age I guess.

Surry is backwards, but after him I've got Jao+HC.... I can try regoniate ivory (in 5 turns), but i think I would need another golden age caste to get merchant out (I failed to get one at ~70% odds during first GA).

 

[Pangaea]

@sampsa

Spoiler :

Agri was my first tech, as wet corn is better than whatever sea resource we had. Postponed AH for a long time (traded for it post-Alpha) because all AH resources were out of bounds. Main reason for going BW was all those forests. Hard to get much done without chopping down some of it. Pretty soon it also became apparent we were boxed in (think I wrote this in my first update), so BW, hoping to find copper, made sense for several reasons.

What surprised me when reading those posts from years ago was that so few people seemed go go for Agri first, and a fair few preferred Fishing.

As discussed previously, the map's difficulty can vary somewhat depending on religious situation too.

 

[sampsa]

@Pangaea

Spoiler :

Very well played btw. Excellent and early win. Shows how powerful Cuirs are, especially when controlled by an excellent player.

Thanks. I don't think your game pales in comparison at all! Pre-1600AD military win on a tough map featuring intercontinental warfare is something not everyone pulls off on immortal.

There were a few things that became clearer to me from this game.

• Axe rushing can be a pretty decent strategy, especially with lots of forests. Just prepare to deal with the losses. Capture workers with woodsmanII.
• 10 cities can failgold a hefty amount. I could go through the autosaves to see how much failgold I got in total, but I suspect 2000-3000 pre-800AD (Military Tradition). This is of course nothing compared to what @WastinTime does on marathon, but it's still game changing I think.
• With lots of good cities, MoM+parthenon -combo is pretty powerful to spawn GP from multiple cities during golden ages.
• Cuirassiers can sweep the whole map at least on immortal, just be prepared for some losses.

Agri was my first tech, as wet corn is better than whatever sea resource we had. Postponed AH for a long time (traded for it post-Alpha) because all AH resources were out of bounds. Main reason for going BW was all those forests. Hard to get much done without chopping down some of it. Pretty soon it also became apparent we were boxed in (think I wrote this in my first update), so BW, hoping to find copper, made sense for several reasons.

What surprised me when reading those posts from years ago was that so few people seemed go go for Agri first, and a fair few preferred Fishing.

As discussed previously, the map's difficulty can vary somewhat depending on religious situation too.

Yes I think if SIP, fishing first is a clear mistake. 6 is sooo much better than 42 and the latter needs an investment of 30. I think in the past it was not clearly understood that settling a strong 2nd site asap wins a lot of .

This game has more built-in variance than most forum games, due to huts and events on. Damn, getting a free cover -promo for melee would change a lot.

@Snowbird

Spoiler :

How on Earth Surry can have cap at size two?

Tech situation at the end (2x bulbed education, bulbed lib, after trade up machinery and stuff)... being small still means I will need some time to get through gunpowder and either Nationalism or MT.

520AD- lib is 4 turns, i've got a spare Great artist (Jao is at friendly and finishing DR, not sure if he will trade between vasal and building wonders) and GS. If i could remove DR in theory GA can bulb Nationalism. Next great person is in ~12-13 turns. GS... should have made academy back in BC age I guess.

Surry is backwards, but after him I've got Jao+HC.... I can try regoniate ivory (in 5 turns), but i think I would need another golden age caste to get merchant out (I failed to get one at ~70% odds during first GA).

Yep Surys capital is so weak with all those plains hills and only two 4-tiles before calendar+irrigation. He probably also stole wheat with another city.

I guess you got shafted a bit with popping an unlucky artist, otherwise you'd be a bit faster with lib. I think your position is not bad, but if you take a peek at my 400AD spoiler and compare it with that... More cities is just so much better at this point. If you can get MT+gunpowder fast enough I guess taking Sury out is not a big problem?

 

[Fippy]

Yup Axe rushes seem a bit underestimated overall, which also leads to aggressive being lowly rated often

They have some benefits working for them, compared to let's say HAs or Cats.
No extra techs needed.
35h cost = great whipping number. Almost 30h overflow can be worked out for 2 pop whip in food rich cities, and 1 pop whip not difficult to reach in others.
1 chop = 1 Axe with some prod added.

I also find that you often look for things to build early, if there's not much settling space like on this map.
Hammers into Axes may not compete with more useful builds.

 

[jvdl]

Yup Axe rushes seem a bit underestimated overall.

Took the challenge to be "how to recover from an early rush" and did the axe rush.
Normally wouldn't have done that. This game confirmed my dislike for these reasons:
* HA rushes is not much later than axe rush but because of speed & power, it finishes earlier (or maybe I just don't know how to play axes well).
* CAT rush is later and therefore has more rewards (wonders, techs, better developed cities)

Spoiler :

HA rush was not an option on this map. No horses.

 

[Snowbird]

Spoiler 1090AD :

So, i thought lib>nat, cancel marble deal, make second golden age with two great persons, build Taj.... but i think MT alone would take ~15turns if i somehow cover gold deficit. Does not sound good.

Surry upon short scouting had lots of metal units which do not upgrade to longbows....

720Ad DoW surry with cats and maces (made one chariot for superhealer). Got pig and 10 gpt instead of horse from jao for copper.

760Ad burned Angor Thom (no food sources, no surviving buildings). Turn before took out Surry's offensive stack of swords and axes, which moped poor lonely injured axe.

820AD -- got engineering for paper+theology from Gilgamesh

840Ad recaptured Khmer capitol, atatched second GG to warrior (free upgrade, second healer unit), replaced his military police work with one of shock axes.

920AD - defy stop the war vote. Hapiness situation does not look good.
960AD capture Hariha (whatever khmers call it) - got mausoleum.
1020Ad swap gunpowder for guilds, iirc, shopped gunpowder around for tech and cash, jao actually teched PP, too bad i had half bulbed it
Well, typically PP happens to be on different side of offer

1030AD half bulb chemistry(if only i had brains to hold on PP bulb or managed not to spawn GA)
1050AD ex-barb city now belonging to khmer gets slave revolt (events...), so i barely manage to get and cap Surry

Nuremberg:

Well,i kept cause of whale, but Academy

1060AD we get results of another vote to stop the war, no more defy unhappiness.
1090AD closely outrun HC to get this:

So Jao has MT and went through Taj golden age.... not going to be pretty. I am two techs away from riflling but without capture gold that is going to take ages.

 

[Snowbird]

Spoiler 1520AD :

short version:

I've got so many wonders...

And so much landspace....

And AI still has no clue why that happened...

long version:
I started whipping cannons (where I had racks) and knechts. In 4 turns got my GS and burned him fro second GA (12 turns). I even run mercantilism in order to squeeze another GP in 5 turns... 70%+ odds of GM ---- got another GS thanks to great library... So cannons and knechts had to do it...

1120AD caravel from nurnberg found Saladin. found Katty next turn.

1130AD start GA.

1180AD trade gunpowder and liberalism to Jao for Astronomy -- gives good trade routes an resource trades, although I believe there is enough land for domination on this continent.

After some contemplation use GS for Academy in cap. Should have been in 1180BC...

Secure horse for copper from Saladin.

1200AD DoW on Jao+HC. Big move on start captured worker... So far had four (zero captures against khmer)

1220 evacuated Corihuawhatever since i don't really want fight on defense. (I've had more cannons than knechts at this point)

1230AD - Captured minor shrines (HC had three in total)

1240AD - got replacable parts, rifling is going to be struggle, but aat least RP hopefully blocks AI going that way.

Apparently Jao can vote himself into AP post at this point despite fact that Gilga would vote for me.

1280AD captured Cuzco -- major shrine, kept bank, grocer. Notre dame is good too. Jao still runs monarchy despite having mids...

Money situation of that period (at few points I had to sell techs to Sal and Katty to avoid strike):

Squeezing some rathauses and waiting for Cuzco to come out of revolt.
1370AD --- I had one split of stack wiped by Jao (cannon s and cuirarasiers in open field don't go well), but eleminated HC. Jao stopped asking for cities in peace deal.

Jao is teching physics... at least airships do not count as city defenders.

1380Ad got yet another GS... settle him.

1460Ad AP pops vote to stop trading with Katty.. voted yes, to remove the previous defying anger.

1510AD got rifling, started MT. Rifles would need forever, to get to the front, at this point i ma mostly reinforcing with knights anyway... (it has been a while since I had bunch of pinch knights)

Got Coimbra which got Versailes, and spiral Minaret... pretty sure I am going survive cash wise.

1520Ad got Lisbon, Jao would cap, but I do not think that is going to happen. I think we will push forward for another few hundred years untill I own the continent.

 

[Snowbird]

To the dominating end

Spoiler 1690Ad :

1530AD Gilga gets through replacable parts, convert to police state

1535AD So Jao had colossus too, figures.

1555AD found islam shrine (at the end I owned five shrines...)

1560AD finish MT, shut down research. Core cities start building wealth, since i think upgrading is better than few units reaching Gilga 6-7turns later...

Knight rush last two cities of Jao. Gilgamesh reached rifling... nothing new more of ugly warfare...

1580AD dow gilgamesh, I split stack in order to block any counterattack nonsense

1595 got Ur

1620AD got Uruk, it had statue of liberty... time to rework citizens... lots of priests.

1640AD shumerian cities falling, leaving culture artifacts

rifles or no rifles, the rest is essentially cavalry rush, two-three rifles per city are not going to stop it.

1665AD

take that desert city as part of caping.

The rest is waiting, planting few cities in the middle of desert and tundra and building culture...

Well, peak was still in revolt, so could have not bothered with last few cities.

Some military stats (built, lost, killed):
warrior 6 2 0
swordsman 0 0 25
axemen 9 7 19 (with vultures)
macemen 15 7 33 (some made to C1CR3 rifles)
spearsman 1 0 3
pikes 0 0 23
landsknechts 40 13 0 (lots of them went as military police, some became rifles)
musktes 0 0 22
rifles 2 3 22 (most of rifles I had were upgrades, they are to slow to act as reinforcements)
longbows 13 1 86
xbows 0 0 29
chariot 1 1 1 (lost my superhealer in Jao counterattack)
HA 0 0 12
knights 60 25 4 (took ages to get to cavalry...)
cuirassier 0 0 49 (suckers)
cavalry 94 48 32 (getting last fivish shumerian cities was costly)
phants 1 0 7 (I was afraid of balista elepahnts initially)
cats 16 15 42 (15 cats to win first war, awesome)
cannons 56 32 12
airship 0 0 24

Great persons:
2 artists, 10GS, 10GG... All non GG came from cap, not good use of parthenon. Guess i could have used GG better (like spread xp on cannons, some cr3 would be nice) -- used 3 for healers, settled 7.

play time -- 13:30--- last 6-7 hours were not too fun.

 

[dutchfire]

Well done

 

[Fish Man]

Protective leader? Terrible resourceless start but with marble and wine? Stuck with mysticism and minimal space?

I think this calls for a...LONGBOW RUSH!!!

It's t70 and I have feuda and am about to bulb math. After teching alpha I'll trade for wheel, fishing, sailing, writing, and of course archery. Meanwhile my forests are ready for chopping and I have barracks up and running. With pro + vassalage my longbows get shock+cover right out the gate, essentially countering every single unit the AI has. It's time to roll...

(PS - on second thought it might've been also viable to oracle MC and do an engineering rush. Pro XBows + shnecks = whole continent rolled, and this isn't even considering the trebs. But alas, I am not philo and I don't like having the seafood unimproved for TOO long...).

 

[sampsa]

Interesting. So what's it going to be, sushi or commie space?

 

[Fish Man]

Commie. Sushi’s only good on B&S or a few other select maps where there are enough resources to justify corps. Corps are also pretty useless outside of marathon where there’s not enough time to spread and pay off the initial investment as well as build the necessary infrastructure.

 

[Fish Man]

t100 update:

Despite moderate losses Surry is capped. I think I'll squeeze calendar and eventually currency/construction out of him. In the meantime I plan to bulb philo. Don't think I should take on Huayna just yet, since he has hilled wall cities. Schnekts or cuirs?

 

[Fish Man]

Interesting. So what's it going to be, sushi or commie space?

So played until 1300 AD and it seems the game’s intent on screwing me over. First of all, huge lovefest: no wars except the ones I started, everyone’s trading, nobody bribeable. OK. Well I have cuirs by 800 AD and 10 cities, should be no problem. Joao forced me to go for him first because he’s literally ignoring everything else and beelining rifling. So I smash his stack, and his backup stack, and he still doesn’t cap. Only gives up when down to 6 cities.

I cap Huayna next and discover to my horror that Giggles has used his HoF start to nab MS and rifling before 1300ad, filling every one of his cities with dozens of CGIII whatevers. Even cavalry which I just got are hopelessly outclassed. At this point, yes with 20 cities and 3 vassals I can powertech to 1500ad tanks and steamroll that way, but I’d be lying if I said that I’m pretty much dedicated all out to winning sub 1400 dom. I’m going to replay from 1110ad and see if I can do anything about the Giggles situation, but the bottom line is it seems the AI has finally gained sentience and is using it to make the game as frustrating as possible. Thought a 12 hour flight would be enough to finish but apparently not...

 

[sampsa]

I thought you were going space? Sounds like we were in a similar situation 800AD, 10 cities and incoming cuirs, but I was much luckier diplo-wise.

 

[Fish Man]

I thought you were going space? Sounds like we were in a similar situation 800AD, 10 cities and incoming cuirs, but I was much luckier diplo-wise.

After further consideration I’ve decided to switch to dom because I wanted that fast finish date and compare myself to other players. Little did I know that everyone and their mother would be going rifling...oh, and Saladin peacevassaled to Cathy.

I think capping Surry was the mistake. Besides annoying revolts he’s really dragging the avg world power down since his entire army is like 5 axes. So people are much less willing to cap.

 

[Fish Man]

I thought you were going space? Sounds like we were in a similar situation 800AD, 10 cities and incoming cuirs, but I was much luckier diplo-wise.

Turned back the clock and decided that more drastic measures were in order. So I whipped a few cats and continued marching my longbow army to try and crush Huayna. Capped 580 AD; slightly behind techwise now compared to where I was before but have 3 more good cities and a rival out of the way.

 

[Fish Man]

I thought you were going space? Sounds like we were in a similar situation 800AD, 10 cities and incoming cuirs, but I was much luckier diplo-wise.

t204 conquest...slower than yours. Giggles folded surprisingly easy but I had to wait for astro because Huayna took his sweet time getting it . The AI loves to bulldoze cottages and replace them with farms. Should've given him the northernmost city back a while back. AIs also seem to automatically turn down the slower 10% or 20% when at war which is very useful when they're gunning for rifling but frustrating when they're teching something you need. Also was counting on vassals to take a city or two but nope...they insist on bombarding down 100% city defenses 2% at a time with a single catapult despite the only defenders being a pike and longbow and them having like 8 maces. A mechanic which I abused to smash Huayna's stack earlier on but again, a double-edged sword.

I guess moral of the story is, longbows are a viable offensive unit ...in very certain circumstances.