Immortal vs Siphai (or Persia vs Turks)

[Frostyboy]

Since both the Persians and the Ottoman turks are Sci Ind, their UU is pretty much the only thing that is different between these civs (they are both evev the same cultural group)

The Perians have Immortals 4/2/1 (instead of swordman 3/2/1) which is a 33% increase of the attack value for no more cost. They also keep their benefit by having immortals as cheaper medieaval infantery

THe Ottomans have Siphai 8/3/3 (instead of cavalry 6/3/3) which is also a 33% increase of the attack value.

Still the Ottomans must pay full price for this, even though they get their UU pretty late in the game and demands saltpeter and horses.

Ok before I hear any arguments FOR the way it is I can guess a couple of them myself.

-Cavalry is a very strong and widely used offensive unit (but so is the swordman and med inf) and 8 attack is awsome (but so is 4 in ancient times)

-The cost of 100 instead of 80 is only a 25% increase, so if the same applied to the immortal they would cost 34 (which they dont do)

So What do people think - should Siphai be cheaper (80 or 90) or the Immortals perhaps be more expensive (35 I suggest)

This example shows that the developers haven't made a perfectly balanced game - and far less realistic. I mod my games to avoid these things. I have made the sipahai 7/4/3 - 90shields by now (they were more armoured than normal cavalry)

 

[Mordack]

I think Immortals should be more expensive

I have always believed that the Immortal is the best UU in the game - will explain:

1) same cost as sword

2) comes at about the time I normally enter into my first conflict

3) longest useful life - not obsolete until the advent of cavs

4) versatility - great offensive and defensive unit


clearly this UU gives the player a significant advantage and therefore needs to be re-balanced

 

[Frostyboy]

Yes, I yhink it could be modded up to 35 shields, It is the best offensive UU in the game. The hoplite is the best Defensive unit, but with the Greeks its a hassle to watch out for not getting your Golden Age too early in the game. With the Immortals you can always wait.

 

[vmxa]

I would think a defense of 4 would be very strong for calv unit.

 

[Gato Loco]

Siphai are plenty powerful due to their fast movement and ability to retreat. These other advantages work synergistically with the increased attack to make them really powerful. I'm not really experienced with the Turks, but a Siphai army should basically flatten anything else in the middle ages. 8 attack blitzable Siphai armies vs. 4 defense muskets basically amounts to throwing out the Civ3 combat model and replacing it with the SMAC combat model minus the effective city walls. Immortals, on the other hand, are hindered by being so slow. They may be twice as strong as a horse, but they move half as fact.

 

[vmxa]

Immortals are not worth a crap on defense, same as a sword. When you see them coming, do not wait, go attack them.

You do not have anything in the same age that will do real well attacking a 4 def, retreatable Sip.

 

[Frostyboy]

So you think they should cost 100 shields. OK. I also think 80 shields would be cheap.
But the Siphai should have better defence since they after all were heavy armored units.

 

[Bluemofia]

I think it is good enough as it is, because the speed factor makes the siphai better than the immortal. Speed is your friend when attacking heavily fortified defenders.

 

[majk-iii]

No need 4 change really... since siphais attack-value of 8 is so powerful as to allow them to be pretty good counterattackers even against tanks.
One could tweak the game by giving the siphai blitz-capabilities like the cheaper cossacks, but i reccon anything beoynd that would be greatly overpowering.
Especially extra defence... that would make the ottamans virtually unstoppable.

 

[YNCS]

Considering that the Siphai move 3 times as fast as Immortals and can retreat from combat, I think that Siphai are better units. Besides, I like my GA in the Industrial Age.

 

[Dark Russell]

Both have thier strengths, and I don't play either civ as thier UU's make it easy to win most games. Playing against them I find with an equal start, the Immortals win out by far as it allows the AI (or player) to expand rapidly early on. Siphais are great, but I have yet to see the Ottomans do well in any game I have played.

If I had to choose, I would choose the Siphai because I only play on 220x220 maps and by the time they are available you can clean house. Those extra few shield costs are peanuts when you are in a GA.

That's my 2 cents.