Improved Mesoamerican Conquest
- Thread starter RedAlert
- Start date
RedAlert
Love one another
And here is the andean unit tree. This is most definately open for suggestions, as any info I found was lacking, so I made quite a bit of guesswork. Note, there is also a mercinary unit available in the last era to the andean civs, but I have yet to decide it's name, stats, or graphics.
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Sword_Of_Geddon
Arbiter of the Sword
Looking good Red. But why do you still have the Zulu unit up there? 
RedAlert
Love one another
I knew I would forget something...
I will change it. Thanks for pointing that out.
I will change it. Thanks for pointing that out.
RedAlert
Love one another
While I'm asking for suggestions, Here is what the civilizations/leaders/traits look like right now:
Aztecs - Tlatoani Moctezuma Illhuicanmina - Militaristic and Agricultural
Chavin - ? ? ? - Commercial and Agricultural
Chimor - King Taycanamu - Militaristic and Expansionist
Huari - ? ? ? - Industrious and Expansionist
Inca - Sapa Inca Tupac Inca Yupanqui - Expansionist and Religious
Mapuche - ? ? ? - Militaristic and Commercial
Maya - K'ul Ahau Pacal the Great - Militaristic and Scientific
Moche - Lord Sipan - Industrious and Religious
Monte Alban - ? ? ? - Scientific and Commercial
Olmecs - Jaguar Po Ngbe - Scientific and Religious
Tarascans - King Tangoxoan II - Militaristic and Industrious
Teotihuacan - Kalomte Atlatl Cauac - Expansionist and Commercial
Tiwanaku - ? ? ? - Industrious and Commerical
Toltecs - Lord Topiltzin Ce Acatl Quetzalcoatl - Militaristic and Religious
Aztecs - Tlatoani Moctezuma Illhuicanmina - Militaristic and Agricultural
Chavin - ? ? ? - Commercial and Agricultural
Chimor - King Taycanamu - Militaristic and Expansionist
Huari - ? ? ? - Industrious and Expansionist
Inca - Sapa Inca Tupac Inca Yupanqui - Expansionist and Religious
Mapuche - ? ? ? - Militaristic and Commercial
Maya - K'ul Ahau Pacal the Great - Militaristic and Scientific
Moche - Lord Sipan - Industrious and Religious
Monte Alban - ? ? ? - Scientific and Commercial
Olmecs - Jaguar Po Ngbe - Scientific and Religious
Tarascans - King Tangoxoan II - Militaristic and Industrious
Teotihuacan - Kalomte Atlatl Cauac - Expansionist and Commercial
Tiwanaku - ? ? ? - Industrious and Commerical
Toltecs - Lord Topiltzin Ce Acatl Quetzalcoatl - Militaristic and Religious
Sword_Of_Geddon
Arbiter of the Sword
I'd almost have the Toltecs as Industrious and Religious, since under the reign of the Highpriest (see here: http://www.crystalinks.com/toltecs.html ) the Toltecs were not the bloodthirsty human-sacrifice practicers that they later became after the revulution that took the Priest-King from power. Since Ce is the leader, they should be the kinder, gentiler Toltecs methinks.
Atlantes...the statue warriors of the Toltecs, wonder why they are up there. To me that is a possible Atlantis connection. That would be extranory to discover if it were true.
You should also have the Aztec Gliders as a unit, since I believe they used them for scouting...
More Tech ideas:
Mesoamerican:
Royal Tombs: Some Mayan Kings were entombed in special chambers inside the pyramid temples.
Gliders: See above
Andean:
Llama Worship
Imperial Road System
Assimilization: The Incans wiped out oral histories of the tribes they conquered, forcing them to thinking of themselves as Incans.
Polynesian Trade: Theories that the Incans traded with the Polynesians since their stonework is so similiar have some credibility.
Reed-Ship Building
Atlantes...the statue warriors of the Toltecs, wonder why they are up there. To me that is a possible Atlantis connection. That would be extranory to discover if it were true.
You should also have the Aztec Gliders as a unit, since I believe they used them for scouting...
More Tech ideas:
Mesoamerican:
Royal Tombs: Some Mayan Kings were entombed in special chambers inside the pyramid temples.
Gliders: See above
Andean:
Llama Worship
Imperial Road System
Assimilization: The Incans wiped out oral histories of the tribes they conquered, forcing them to thinking of themselves as Incans.
Polynesian Trade: Theories that the Incans traded with the Polynesians since their stonework is so similiar have some credibility.
Reed-Ship Building
RedAlert
Love one another
Ok - I've changed Toltecs to Industrious and Religious, switching with the Moche, who are now Militaristic and Religious.
The Atlantes statues are fascinating.... that's why I named the Toltec unit after them.
Aztec Gliders? I don't believe I've heard of such a thing. Could you tell me more about them?
Thanks for the tech suggestions. I find that a few of them can probably be incorporated into existing techs, though. For example Royal tombs could be an improvement or wonder allowed by Pyramid Building, Assimilation would be more of a concept, represented in the Tawantisuyu government type and a mercinary unit for the andean civs. Imperial Road System is basically what I had in mind by Road Network. Your mention of Llama Worship has given me a great idea that I will explain in my next post (after I think about it for a bit).
I will most certainly add a couple more naval techs, though. Especially after the release of some very fine ships by aaglo.
btw, I have renamed / replaced the Zapotec civ with Monte Alban (really just the same thing in some respects, but different in others)
The Atlantes statues are fascinating.... that's why I named the Toltec unit after them.
Aztec Gliders? I don't believe I've heard of such a thing. Could you tell me more about them?
Thanks for the tech suggestions. I find that a few of them can probably be incorporated into existing techs, though. For example Royal tombs could be an improvement or wonder allowed by Pyramid Building, Assimilation would be more of a concept, represented in the Tawantisuyu government type and a mercinary unit for the andean civs. Imperial Road System is basically what I had in mind by Road Network. Your mention of Llama Worship has given me a great idea that I will explain in my next post (after I think about it for a bit).
I will most certainly add a couple more naval techs, though. Especially after the release of some very fine ships by aaglo.
btw, I have renamed / replaced the Zapotec civ with Monte Alban (really just the same thing in some respects, but different in others)
Sword_Of_Geddon
Arbiter of the Sword
Someone told me it once in the NA mod thread way back.
I tried digging for some information, I found this though:
Ancient Flying Machines Strange Artifacts
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ancient Airplane Models Ancient Vimana Aircraft Books
Links
Introduction
Flight has been the dream of humankind since they watched in awe as birds soared effortlessly through the sky. But, according to accepted history, it wasn't until the 1780s that two Frenchmen achieved lighter-than-air flight when they were lifted into the air in a hot air balloon near Paris. Then powered, heavier-than-air flight became the goal. And although it was theorized that heavier-than-air flight was possible as early as the 13th century, and in the 16th century Leonardo da Vinci designed winged aircraft and a crude kind of helicopter, it wasn't until the Wright brothers made their first successful flights at Kitty Hawk in 1903 that powered flight became a reality.
That's the widely accepted history. Some researchers and a few rogue scientists believe there's evidence to suggest that humans achieved flight earlier in history - much earlier... so early, they say, that the knowledge of this technology has been lost and ancient stories that recount adventures of human flight have been relegated only to myth.
Is it possible that humans developed the technology to fly in early civilizations - or in civilizations that are now lost to history? Let's take a look at what some call the evidence - intriguing artifacts, carvings, inscriptions and legends - that they say point to the true record human of flight.
Colombia
Airplane Models
©1996 Lumir G. Janku. All rights reserved. Reprinted with permission.
This object (shown in sketch) was found in 1898 in a tomb at Saqquara, Egypt and was later dated as having been created near 200 BCE. As airplanes were unknown in the days when it was found, it was thrown into a box marked "wooden bird model" and then stored in the basement of the Cairo museum.
It was rediscovered by Dr. Khalil Messiha, who studied models made by ancients. The "discovery" was considered so important by the Egyptian government that a special committee of leading scientists was established to study the object.
As a result of their findings, a special exhibit was set up in the center hall of the Cairo museum, with the little model as its centerpiece. It was even labelled as a model airplane.
To elucidate the reasons for the decision of the committee, almost unprecedented in the field of archeology, let's consider some aspects of the model. The model has the exact proportions of a very advanced form of "pusher-glider" that is still having "some bugs ironed out". This type of glider will stay in the air almost by itselfeven a very small engine will keep it going at low speeds, as low as 45 to 65 mph., while it can carry an enormous payload. This ability is dependent on the curious shape of wings and their proportions. The tipping of wings downward, a reversedihedral wing as it is called, is the feature behind this capability. A similar type of curving wings are implemented on the Concorde airplane, giving the plane a maximum lift without detracting from its speed.
In that context, it seems rather incredible that someone, more than 2,000 years ago, for any reason, devised a model of a flying device with such advanced features, requiring quite extensive knowledge of aerodynamics. There were no such things as airplanes in these times, we are told by archeologists and historians. But this case seems to be an exception, living in the midst of the rather unimaginative and rigid paradigm of contemporary science. It is also necessary to point out that Egyptians are known to have nearly always made scale-models of projects and objects which they planned to create or build.
Precolombian Airplane Models
Is the concept of an airplane limited to Egypt? That doesn't seem to be the case. Gold trinkets were found in an area covering Central America and coastal areas of South America, estimated to belong to a period between 500 and 800 CE, but since they are made from gold, accurate dating is impossible and based essentially on stratigraphy which may be deceptive. However, we can safely say that these gold objects are more than 1000 years old.
Apparently that gold airplane was a relic from the Teotihuacan.......
I tried digging for some information, I found this though:
Ancient Flying Machines Strange Artifacts
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ancient Airplane Models Ancient Vimana Aircraft Books
Links
Introduction
Flight has been the dream of humankind since they watched in awe as birds soared effortlessly through the sky. But, according to accepted history, it wasn't until the 1780s that two Frenchmen achieved lighter-than-air flight when they were lifted into the air in a hot air balloon near Paris. Then powered, heavier-than-air flight became the goal. And although it was theorized that heavier-than-air flight was possible as early as the 13th century, and in the 16th century Leonardo da Vinci designed winged aircraft and a crude kind of helicopter, it wasn't until the Wright brothers made their first successful flights at Kitty Hawk in 1903 that powered flight became a reality.
That's the widely accepted history. Some researchers and a few rogue scientists believe there's evidence to suggest that humans achieved flight earlier in history - much earlier... so early, they say, that the knowledge of this technology has been lost and ancient stories that recount adventures of human flight have been relegated only to myth.
Is it possible that humans developed the technology to fly in early civilizations - or in civilizations that are now lost to history? Let's take a look at what some call the evidence - intriguing artifacts, carvings, inscriptions and legends - that they say point to the true record human of flight.
Colombia
Airplane Models
©1996 Lumir G. Janku. All rights reserved. Reprinted with permission.
This object (shown in sketch) was found in 1898 in a tomb at Saqquara, Egypt and was later dated as having been created near 200 BCE. As airplanes were unknown in the days when it was found, it was thrown into a box marked "wooden bird model" and then stored in the basement of the Cairo museum.
It was rediscovered by Dr. Khalil Messiha, who studied models made by ancients. The "discovery" was considered so important by the Egyptian government that a special committee of leading scientists was established to study the object.
As a result of their findings, a special exhibit was set up in the center hall of the Cairo museum, with the little model as its centerpiece. It was even labelled as a model airplane.
To elucidate the reasons for the decision of the committee, almost unprecedented in the field of archeology, let's consider some aspects of the model. The model has the exact proportions of a very advanced form of "pusher-glider" that is still having "some bugs ironed out". This type of glider will stay in the air almost by itselfeven a very small engine will keep it going at low speeds, as low as 45 to 65 mph., while it can carry an enormous payload. This ability is dependent on the curious shape of wings and their proportions. The tipping of wings downward, a reversedihedral wing as it is called, is the feature behind this capability. A similar type of curving wings are implemented on the Concorde airplane, giving the plane a maximum lift without detracting from its speed.
In that context, it seems rather incredible that someone, more than 2,000 years ago, for any reason, devised a model of a flying device with such advanced features, requiring quite extensive knowledge of aerodynamics. There were no such things as airplanes in these times, we are told by archeologists and historians. But this case seems to be an exception, living in the midst of the rather unimaginative and rigid paradigm of contemporary science. It is also necessary to point out that Egyptians are known to have nearly always made scale-models of projects and objects which they planned to create or build.
Precolombian Airplane Models
Is the concept of an airplane limited to Egypt? That doesn't seem to be the case. Gold trinkets were found in an area covering Central America and coastal areas of South America, estimated to belong to a period between 500 and 800 CE, but since they are made from gold, accurate dating is impossible and based essentially on stratigraphy which may be deceptive. However, we can safely say that these gold objects are more than 1000 years old.
Apparently that gold airplane was a relic from the Teotihuacan.......
RedAlert
Love one another
This was that idea I had:
So far, I have not extensively incorporated the aspect of religion in this mod. So, when I read 'llama worship', I came up with this: Suppose as well as having different governments, each government type also offered the worship of a different god. For example, two governments would be Tezcatlipoca Chiefdom or Tlaloc Chiefdom. On top of the benefits the government type would give (which would be the same for both of the above), each religion type would also give a specific benefit (different in both of the above) - in the form of an improvement or wonder that requires that government. So, the government being Tlaloc Chiefdom, you could build a temple of Tlaloc, which would provide benefits like, say, increased food production (as Tlaloc was the god of rain and fertility).
So far, I have not extensively incorporated the aspect of religion in this mod. So, when I read 'llama worship', I came up with this: Suppose as well as having different governments, each government type also offered the worship of a different god. For example, two governments would be Tezcatlipoca Chiefdom or Tlaloc Chiefdom. On top of the benefits the government type would give (which would be the same for both of the above), each religion type would also give a specific benefit (different in both of the above) - in the form of an improvement or wonder that requires that government. So, the government being Tlaloc Chiefdom, you could build a temple of Tlaloc, which would provide benefits like, say, increased food production (as Tlaloc was the god of rain and fertility).
RedAlert
Love one another
Also here is a list of resources likely to be in the mod. Please feel free to mention any important ones I may have forgotten.
Maize
Squash
Cocoa
Rubber
Shellfish
Exotic Birds
Tropical Fruit
Obsidian
Jade
Gold
Stone Quarry
Copper
Llamas
Turkeys
Lumber
Nahuatal Mercinaries
Andean Mercinaries
Fish
Cotton
Maize
Squash
Cocoa
Rubber
Shellfish
Exotic Birds
Tropical Fruit
Obsidian
Jade
Gold
Stone Quarry
Copper
Llamas
Turkeys
Lumber
Nahuatal Mercinaries
Andean Mercinaries
Fish
Cotton
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Sword_Of_Geddon
Arbiter of the Sword
Did you see my post above Red?
Anyway, Chiefdom should be the starting government. The Aztecs were diffinitely a Monarchy, as were the Mayan city states. Ce's government during the Priestking era of the Toltecs was alittle different. In that case I'd maybe have Quezalcoatyl Theocratic Monarchy as the government type. This would be somewhere between Republic and Monarchy I think. Would probably have Democracy's assimilation level, since Quezalcoatyl worship was popular in Mesoamerica(since he was one of the few beniviolent mesoamerican gods.) Improvement could be 1+ happyness, 1+ research rate(since Quezalcoatyl's teachings stressed discovery of one's place in the cosmos).
Anyway, Chiefdom should be the starting government. The Aztecs were diffinitely a Monarchy, as were the Mayan city states. Ce's government during the Priestking era of the Toltecs was alittle different. In that case I'd maybe have Quezalcoatyl Theocratic Monarchy as the government type. This would be somewhere between Republic and Monarchy I think. Would probably have Democracy's assimilation level, since Quezalcoatyl worship was popular in Mesoamerica(since he was one of the few beniviolent mesoamerican gods.) Improvement could be 1+ happyness, 1+ research rate(since Quezalcoatyl's teachings stressed discovery of one's place in the cosmos).
RedAlert
Love one another
That bit about the possibility of ancient airplanes is very interesting. It really makes you wonder - could they? How could such a thing be implemented on a civ level though? As a unit?
I like to keep an open mind, so for me, anything's possible. I don't know about everyone else, though. Although I am largely doing and deciding things in this mod by myself, I most of all want the approval of the people who will end up playing it. So, a question for anyone lurking around: Would including ancient mesoamerican flight (in whatever form) be a neat what-if idea, or would you all find it a little too far fetched or out of place?
For the same reason, here is the list of all the wonders in Born of Fire (excluding the religion/government wonders). I am quite satisfied with it, but I would like some opinions. If anyone needs any clarification on what a wonder is or does, please ask.
Civ Specific Wonders
Aztecs - The Twin Pyramid
Chavin - Great Obelisk
Chimor - The Great Citadel
Huari - Imperial Road System
Inca - Sacsahuaman
Mapuche - ??? *I need help! What could a Mapuche wonder be?
Maya - Mayapan
Moche - Tomb of Sipan
Monte Alban - Great Plaza
Olmecs - Colossal Heads
Tarascans - Great Yacatas
Teotihuacan - Avenue of the Dead
Tiwanaku - Gateway of the Sun
Toltecs - Pyramid of Kukulcan
Culture Specific Wonders
Central American
- Great Ball Court
- Great Pyramid
- Great Observatory
- Cozumel
- Temple of the Warriors
Andean
- Caral
- Nazca Lines
- Machu Picchu
- Organized Military
- ??? *I'm looking for one more, preferably pre-Inca wonder.
Available to all - Great Marketplace
I know there are many other excellent candidates for wonders, especially in the civ specific area (for example, the Maya). These wonders, though, I'm saving for religion specific, as many of them were linked to a particular god or godess.
I like to keep an open mind, so for me, anything's possible. I don't know about everyone else, though. Although I am largely doing and deciding things in this mod by myself, I most of all want the approval of the people who will end up playing it. So, a question for anyone lurking around: Would including ancient mesoamerican flight (in whatever form) be a neat what-if idea, or would you all find it a little too far fetched or out of place?
For the same reason, here is the list of all the wonders in Born of Fire (excluding the religion/government wonders). I am quite satisfied with it, but I would like some opinions. If anyone needs any clarification on what a wonder is or does, please ask.
Civ Specific Wonders
Aztecs - The Twin Pyramid
Chavin - Great Obelisk
Chimor - The Great Citadel
Huari - Imperial Road System
Inca - Sacsahuaman
Mapuche - ??? *I need help! What could a Mapuche wonder be?
Maya - Mayapan
Moche - Tomb of Sipan
Monte Alban - Great Plaza
Olmecs - Colossal Heads
Tarascans - Great Yacatas
Teotihuacan - Avenue of the Dead
Tiwanaku - Gateway of the Sun
Toltecs - Pyramid of Kukulcan
Culture Specific Wonders
Central American
- Great Ball Court
- Great Pyramid
- Great Observatory
- Cozumel
- Temple of the Warriors
Andean
- Caral
- Nazca Lines
- Machu Picchu
- Organized Military
- ??? *I'm looking for one more, preferably pre-Inca wonder.
Available to all - Great Marketplace
I know there are many other excellent candidates for wonders, especially in the civ specific area (for example, the Maya). These wonders, though, I'm saving for religion specific, as many of them were linked to a particular god or godess.
RedAlert
Love one another
Huastecs? I could certainly include them. First, though, I would need to do a little bit of research. Any information you may have about them would help as well.
I would especially need to figure out:
- what unit(s) they would get
- a unique wonder
- who their leader would be
- their civilization traits (some combination that works, but hasn't been taken by one of the other civs in the game)
- Huastec city list
Also, if I add the Huastecs, I would want to add one more andean civilization to keep the central american - andean ratio. That civ would probably be the Nazca. Again, I would need to figure out all of the above for the Nazca as well, and considering a Nazca unique wonder would be the Nazca lines, I would have to find a differen wonder to be andean specific.
I would especially need to figure out:
- what unit(s) they would get
- a unique wonder
- who their leader would be
- their civilization traits (some combination that works, but hasn't been taken by one of the other civs in the game)
- Huastec city list
Also, if I add the Huastecs, I would want to add one more andean civilization to keep the central american - andean ratio. That civ would probably be the Nazca. Again, I would need to figure out all of the above for the Nazca as well, and considering a Nazca unique wonder would be the Nazca lines, I would have to find a differen wonder to be andean specific.
Sword_Of_Geddon
Arbiter of the Sword
I'd have flight in there somewhere. How about include El Dorado as a wonder late game, and have it produce that airplane above every 10 turns. I'll ask around to see if any of the plane people are interested. As for the Maphuche, I'd have something to do with their ability to defeat the Incans and Spanish and stay alive and independant until 1903 as their wonder.
I'm not 100% sure of all this but...
The huastec refer to themselves as the Teenek and they were known for not ever wearing any clothes and fighting in a kind of phalanx formation with spearmen. Tampico was one of their towns, I think. Hoyama and Tixtla being two others. Like the Purempecha they built t-shaped Pyramids.
The huastec refer to themselves as the Teenek and they were known for not ever wearing any clothes and fighting in a kind of phalanx formation with spearmen. Tampico was one of their towns, I think. Hoyama and Tixtla being two others. Like the Purempecha they built t-shaped Pyramids.
Sword_Of_Geddon
Arbiter of the Sword
Bump.........hows the mod coming Red?
Sword_Of_Geddon
Arbiter of the Sword
Sword_Of_Geddon
Arbiter of the Sword
I have completed the Atlantes. Next I'm going to finish the Plumed Archer and then the N. Mercanary. Hope you come back soon Red.
utahjazz7
Deity
Just so you guys don't miss it, I finished the Atlatl.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=3227438
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=3227438
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