Improvement upgrades

[Psychic_Llamas]

after having played the mod a few times the one thing i keep thinking 'this could be done better' is the improvments and how they upgrade. as it is they have to be rebuilt by workers ever time you get a new tech, and usually by the time i am able to build deep surface mines all my mineral resources have been hooked up by shallow surface mines. to go through my entire empire and manually get my workers to rebuild all the mines gets old fast. its more micromanagement than in fun, and necessery.

in my opinion it would be a lot more fun, simple (especially for n00bs), and far less micromanagement to have them upgrade like the cottage/village/towns. you can still have them only begin upgrading once you research the appropriate tech.

Also, are there any plans to add 'Unique Features' like in FfH2? i know next to nothing about Arrakis and how this would work from a lore point of view. but i COULD see the Sheild Wall (read a fair bit about that) becoming a UF.

just a few ideas for brain food

once again, kudos on a great mod

 

[davidlallen]

one thing i keep thinking 'this could be done better' is the improvments and how they upgrade. as it is they have to be rebuilt by workers ever time you get a new tech, and usually by the time i am able to build deep surface mines all my mineral resources have been hooked up by shallow surface mines. to go through my entire empire and manually get my workers to rebuild all the mines gets old fast. its more micromanagement than in fun, and necessery.

We have discussed this a few times. I agree, mostly, but we have not been able to find a good way to do this. Please see this post and followups for some discussion.

Also, are there any plans to add 'Unique Features' like in FfH2? i know next to nothing about Arrakis and how this would work from a lore point of view. but i COULD see the Sheild Wall (read a fair bit about that) becoming a UF.

Everybody remembers the shield wall. The concept is that the Arrakis mapscript should generate this. Basically, this mapscript is radially symmetric around an ice cap in the center. About 2/3 of the way out, it should have a shield wall which is mostly continuous, built of the mesa terrain (or maybe we will re-introduce impassable peaks). I don't think the current mapscript actually does this, but if Cephalo comes back, maybe he will tweak it, or maybe one of the other contributors can figure it out.

We also have a stone arch feature which appears sometimes, and if we get more art for other wind-carved rock features (repeat art request!) we will add them.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

but we have not been able to find a good way to do this

This is really easy to do in XML. ive done it a lot in the WH mod. if you like ill make a quick little mod for it when i have the time?

 

[keldath]

hey,
well i really like upgradeble improvements,

in the first dune version, i had 2-3 types of improvements that where upgradble through the tech tree - mine 1-2-3 for example - if you wanted to upgrade - you needed a wrker to biulf mine 2 on top of mine one.

this can be re implemented perhaps?
the sdk code is already inside.

 

[Ahriman]

as it is they have to be rebuilt by workers ever time you get a new tech, and usually by the time i am able to build deep surface mines all my mineral resources have been hooked up by shallow surface mines.

IMO this is a deliberate design decision, so that workers remain valuable throughout the game.
In many mods (including Warhammer, PL) once you have built all the improvements you need, workers become redundant.
The point here is that you always need a worker army throughout the game, to keep upgrading wells and mines and turbines, and to keep building spice harvesters. It also means that for a given work force, there is a tradeoff between getting more spice and improving your own infrastructure, and tradeoffs are a good thing.
If you don't want to micromanage, then automate your worker force, they'll do a decent enough job.

I *don't* think its a good idea to require that a level 2 be built on top of a level 1, because then the AI worker construction AI will be less likely to build the level 2's, if for eg they had a different improvement on them first (imagine a turbine on a mesa tile, optimally the AI should build a level 3 mine on top of it, but it won't because that requires level 1 and level 2 mines, and the level 1 mine isn't an improvement over the turbine, so the AI won't build it).

We have discussed this a few times.

My goal from the discussions we've had is to use upgradable resources so that when the resource gets pillaged, or damaged by a sandstorm, it drops down 1 level rather than being eliminated. I still want you to have to build the higher versions.

PL, I don't think we have anything in Warhammer where an improvement needs later versions built on top of it, but pillages down to a previous version. We don't really have *any* non-standard improvements in Warhammer, except the wood elf ones. What were you referring to here?

 

[Slvynn]

IMO this is a deliberate design decision, so that workers remain valuable throughout the game.
In many mods (including Warhammer, PL) once you have built all the improvements you need, workers become redundant.
The point here is that you always need a worker army throughout the game, to keep upgrading wells and mines and turbines, and to keep building spice harvesters. It also means that for a given work force, there is a tradeoff between getting more spice and improving your own infrastructure, and tradeoffs are a good thing.
If you don't want to micromanage, then automate your worker force, they'll do a decent enough job.

I *don't* think its a good idea to require that a level 2 be built on top of a level 1, because then the AI worker construction AI will be less likely to build the level 2's, if for eg they had a different improvement on them first (imagine a turbine on a mesa tile, optimally the AI should build a level 3 mine on top of it, but it won't because that requires level 1 and level 2 mines, and the level 1 mine isn't an improvement over the turbine, so the AI won't build it).


My goal from the discussions we've had is to use upgradable resources so that when the resource gets pillaged, or damaged by a sandstorm, it drops down 1 level rather than being eliminated. I still want you to have to build the higher versions.

PL, I don't think we have anything in Warhammer where an improvement needs later versions built on top of it, but pillages down to a previous version. We don't really have *any* non-standard improvements in Warhammer, except the wood elf ones. What were you referring to here?

I actually agree with Ahriman completely on this topic, i like mechanics, and it make sense even more with sandstorms.

 

[keldath]

I *don't* think its a good idea to require that a level 2 be built on top of a level 1, because then the AI worker construction AI will be less likely to build the level 2's, if for eg they had a different improvement on them first (imagine a turbine on a mesa tile, optimally the AI should build a level 3 mine on top of it, but it won't because that requires level 1 and level 2 mines, and the level 1 mine isn't an improvement over the turbine, so the AI won't build it).

hey ahriman,

actualy, i succeded in making the ai build improvements up to level 3, as i said - i ad mine-1-2-3 - the ai always improved up till level 3 mine.

i wasnt easy to figure out - but the ai will build up to lvl 3 - if he doesn't have an alternative improvement instead of the lvl 3 one,
meaning - you need to set it that each lvl of mine give something more on top of the other improvement, and that there isnt another type of improvement that can match the lvl 3 bonuses.

so buttom line, the ai knows how to improve up to the lvl you offer, if you make it worth while for it.

 

[Ahriman]

actualy, i succeded in making the ai build improvements up to level 3, as i said - i ad mine-1-2-3 - the ai always improved up till level 3 mine.

It will *mostly* build the upgrades, as long as it mostly sees the initial mine as being valuable enough to build. But not always. In any case, what is the design gain for requiring a level 2 to be built on top of a level 1? Mostly this is what you would want to do, but sometimes it isn't; should you be blocked in those cases?

The AI knows how to improve up to level 3 if and only if each step is an improvement.
Take my example:
If there was a blank tile, then a level 1 mine gives +1 hammer (so the AI will build), the level 2 mine gives +2 hammers (+1 over the level 1), and the level 3 gives +3 hammers (+1 over level 2).
So the AI is fine.

But what if there is a tile that has a turbine on it (+1 hammer, 1 commerce)?
It would be better for the AI to have a level 3 mine on that tile: 3h > 1h1c.
But the AI *won't* build the level 3 mine if it has to build the intermediate improvements, because the AI sees the level 1 mine as a downgrade 1h < 1h1c, and the AI doesn't understand the option value, that building the level 1 also gives the opportunity to build the level 2.

Hence my argument for why the level 2 and 3 versions should not require the base version.

 

[koma13]

to go through my entire empire and manually get my workers to rebuild all the mines gets old fast. its more micromanagement than in fun, and necessery.

I agree, this is pretty annoying. Especially when combined with random destruction by sandstorms. I don't see any benefit in gameplay of having to improve the same plots again and again. It's just micromanagement without any strategical decision making...

 

[Ahriman]

The strategic decisionmaking is the tradeoffs of where you devote your workforce.

If you remove the need to build the upgrades, then you lose the need to have any workers after the early game, except for a tiny handful building spice harvesters.

Plus, you get an empire-wide instant boost from getting the techs that allow the upgraded versions, rather than having those benefits smoothed over time as you gradually upgrade each one.
I prefer slowly improving infrastructure to giant discontinuous leaps.

And if you're worried about micromanagement, then just automate your workers.

The building higher versions of improvements was one of the things that I liked about this mod when I first tried it.

 

[koma13]

Well, maybe it's finally time to make my own modmod.

 

[Deliverator]

EThe concept is that the Arrakis mapscript should generate this. Basically, this mapscript is radially symmetric around an ice cap in the center. About 2/3 of the way out, it should have a shield wall which is mostly continuous, built of the mesa terrain (or maybe we will re-introduce impassable peaks). I don't think the current mapscript actually does this, but if Cephalo comes back, maybe he will tweak it, or maybe one of the other contributors can figure it out.

The current Arrakis.py does add a shield wall, but it is quite subtle. Perhaps reducing the amount of Mesa overall will make it stand out more.

 

[keldath]

yeah micro manage of workers was always annoying on late stages,

the lvls of improvement where just to keep them busy later, butit contributes nothing but longer turn time....


say - what is the talk about shield wall?

what would you think if each civ could build a wall in its terrain - that units cannot pass it?

 

[Ahriman]

butit contributes nothing but longer turn time.

Sure it does, it contributes a need for a workforce - particularly if you have a large empire. So its also a minor anti-slippery slope mechanic; people with big empires have to invest more effort in upgrading their infrastructure, vs people with small empires. Whereas if you just got instant bonuses from the tech, then a large empire instantly gets a huge bonus from researching the tech, and a small empire gets a minor one.

Also, if you did remove the need to build the higher levels, then there is no point in having multiple level mines/turbines/wells at all. Just have "mine, turbine, well" improvements, and give them bonuses from higher level techs. So a well gives +2 water on groundwater, and +1 water from way of liet tech and +1 water from arrakis paradise tech.

what would you think if each civ could build a wall in its terrain - that units cannot pass it?

This would make no sense to me.
The shield wall is a geographic feature - a mountain range - and it isn't impassible, it protects the basin behind it from *storms*, not from infantry. Its not anything with technological shields like the shields from shield belts or shields on thopters and vehicles.

 

[keldath]

This would make no sense to me.
The shield wall is a geographic feature - a mountain range - and it isn't impassible, it protects the basin behind it from *storms*, not from infantry. Its not anything with technological shields like the shields from shield belts or shields on thopters and vehicles.

oh now i get it why on the map there are height level between the land masses...

ok, how about an optional wall building? like in dune 2?

 

[Slvynn]

Again, i agree with Ahriman on this topic complely , he makes sense.

Wall improvement sounds cool, should be cheap, but what is mechanic of this improvement will be in wars? can eney enter it? , if not he should be able to blow up it then, so improvement actually need unit properies. .....

 

[keldath]

i have something in my mind, but, i think the ai will be a problem, so for now,
lets leave it...

 

[Ahriman]

ok, how about an optional wall building? like in dune 2?

We already have wall buildings in the cities that provide defenses.

If you're talking about a wall *improvement* on the map... that would make no sense to me. Any wall you could build could easily be blasted down with explosives. And the AI wouldn't know how to use it. And it could potentially be *very* easy to exploit against the AI; if I could build a wall to block off the AI from sending land units at me and force it to use transports?

I don't understand what kind of feature from the books you're trying to replicate here.

 

[keldath]

never mind guys, forget it.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

Good arguments Ahri, i tend to agree but im still not 100% happy with the micro-managment tho automated workers is ok i guess.
itd be good if (but unlikely) there were more automate options like 'only build cottages' or 'only build surface mines' etc. i dont like the workers wasting time on improvements i dont want. but its not a big deal