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Inaccuracies (historical, scientific, logic...)

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by Faustmouse, Apr 10, 2014.

  1. SpartanDoesAcid

    SpartanDoesAcid Chieftain

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    I just started progressing to the industrial age and I quickly beelined for the Marxism tech, cause I'm a Marxist. However I found it somewhat disappointing and inaccurate when I learned that while I could change my civics to 'Centralized Labor' and 'State-Run Agriculture', and that I could change the Society civic to 'Marxist', I noticed the fact that I could not institute 'Planned' in the Economy civic until I had reached the Communism tech. Now, I could easily pull out my copy of the 'Communist Manifesto' and point out the fact that private property would be eliminated in a socialist society, and the 'Communist Manifesto' was written by Marx, and thus what Marxist ideas express should correspond to their implementation in the Marxism tech. Taking also into mind that the 'Single Party' civic can only be taken with Communism (any socialist would not allow the capitalists to take back the gains won by the revolution!) I have to address the inaccurate representation of when a truly socialist society could be implemented relative to human technological development. In my opinion, both the Single Party and the Planned civic should be moved to the Marxism tech, and the Communism tech should be renamed to something akin to Stalinism, as that is clearly what the wonders that are unlocked are meant to represent (with the espionage bonuses and such.)

    I can understand how the misrepresentation of socialist ideology happened when the civics were initially being implemented. One would usually assume that the Single Party and Planned civics should be implemented corresponding to their first implementation in history. However, Marxism as an ideology existed since around Marx's death, and both these civics would almost certainly have been implemented in any Marxist system. Since such a system was not put into place at any time before the October Revolution in Russia, I can understand the mistake made. Whether or not the placement of the Marxism tech actually corresponds to the existence of the Marxist ideology as we know it is also somewhat debatable given the somewhat vague nature of the tech tree given the fact that I am at about 600 AD and I just entered the industrial era.

    Some political nitpickings for consideration.
     
  2. Redwallzyl

    Redwallzyl Warlord

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    remove scientology as a religion.
     
  3. Sparth

    Sparth C2C Team Member

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    Why? :)
     
  4. Redwallzyl

    Redwallzyl Warlord

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    because its not a major religion and no country does or will ever follow that group of crazy's.
     
  5. timschuett

    timschuett Chieftain

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    Unless they're a very rich country. I know there's been discussions previously about this, but I feel like there should be more religions in the later stages of the game. Scientology may not take off in this world, but maybe in my game I want everyone praying to statues of L Ron Hubbard.

    I'd suggest putting some later sci fi religions in as well; cult of the force a la star wars, Familiarism, once you advance sufficiently to meet god:rolleyes:, a religion of collective consciousness etc.
     
  6. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Call them crazy all you like (who knows... you may be right) but they ARE an officially recognized religion by the United States Government and have quite a large following. They'll probably never have as large an influence as many of the other religions here but that doesn't mean they aren't a religion. The validity of the religion does not make it NOT a religion - if that were the case we might as well take religions as a whole out of the game (past Shamanism anyhow.)
     
  7. Kreatur

    Kreatur Warlord

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    religions are alway controversial. Scientology is an organisation that use terror and brain wash for earning money. But its part of our modern world. If you remove it from the game just because it offended persons (including me ) you could remove every controversal aspect from the game. I mean C2C allows me to rule the world as a tyrannic despot who launch nukes on inoccent people and let millions work as slaves for my brutal regime. So why shouln`t i have the adequate religion for it
     
  8. MacCoise

    MacCoise Prince

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    Found it a bit illogiocal that my walls stopped wiorking when I lost access to stone.....suppose it means they couldnt be repaired vbut I dont think they would fall down immediately.
     
  9. Sparth

    Sparth C2C Team Member

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    Maybe they need stone to maintenance? Not repaired walls falling apart.
     
  10. MacCoise

    MacCoise Prince

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    Yep, I understand that but that wouldnt be instant and walls dont generally fall apart very often
     
  11. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    Loss of resource means loss of building. There is no mechanism to cater for something different.
     
  12. Noriad

    Noriad Chieftain

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    Redwallzyl wrote: "remove scientology as a religion. because its not a major religion and no country does or will ever follow that group of crazy's. "

    Every religion starts small and is often shunned by society in its early decades. Scientology is only a few decades old. Give it a few centuries to mature, like other religions.

    That said, the current leader of Scientology (David Miscavige) is a major douchebag. There are at least 23 former co-workers who claim that Miscavige used physical violence against them. It is also Miscavige who started the major money-grabbing and oppression of members. As a result, most regular members have fled and the crazies remained.

    I've looked at the statistics of Scientology, and early 1980's it was large (hundreds of thousands of members) and growing exponentially. Then Miscavige took over and Scientology went into decline. However, no bad leader lives forever and things may become different once a decent leader takes over.

    Meanwhile there are many underground independent Scientology organizations (I'm a member of one of them) and together, in many countries these are already bigger than the official Church of Scientology.

    Scientology is an extensive, detailed system of spiritual self-improvement and not worship. As such it is much closer to e.g. Buddhism or Taoism than e.g. Christianity.
    But Scientology is original enough not to be just a spin-off from any other religion. Unlike e.g. Mormonism which strikes me as re-written Christianity (why include Mormonism and not Lutherianism or Calvinism?)

    The use of the E-meter (an electronic measuring device) allows people to explore their subconscious mind much deeper than any previous mystic practice. In Scientology the structure and pattern of the subconscious mind is mapped out, and thus succeeded where psychology and psychiatry failed. As Scientology offers things no other religion offers, I don't see it go away anytime soon.

    The heavy focus on personality improvement and communication skills makes it an especially useful practice for professional actors, but anyone can benefit from it. Nevertheless I recommend to stay away from the official Church until it has more decent leadership.

    Most people don't know what Scientology is. Its core texts consist of 22 million words. Much of it details research into the structure and workings of the human mind and contains thousands of tested techniques on how to improve it.

    A bunch of vocal critics took a tiny part of it (Xenu), a part that differed the most from the general worldview of people, and also is not representative of the bulk of Scientology, and mislabeled that the "core belief" of Scientology. Most journalists prefer to give superficial, cynical sensationalist reviews of it rather than showing objectively what it actually is. Exceptions are rare but do exist, like this documentary from Channel 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emKvMPGSc0s

    Anyway this discussion is off-topic on this forum so I'll shut up about it. But I did feel a reply was necessary.
     
  13. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    We do have a thread for discussing religions.

    Mormon was included because someone was willing to find and make the art for it and outline its effects when we were putting the religions together. I still have some work to do on the Sikh religious buildings. We have tried to make the religions different in C2C rather than having them all the same as in basic Civ.

    I am trying to come up with a way to evolve your own religion and thus remove the current names religions from the game.
     
  14. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    Well we do have the National Beliefs (Karma, Reincarnation and Resurrection) which can only be made by a Great Prophet. These require religions in the city to work, however if done in the opposite way then perhaps you could make your own religion.

    Also the tech tree is sort of like this where you do not have to research any religion you don't want to get. And some religions do lead to others. Such as Bahá'í requires you know Buddhism, Christianity and Islam.
     
  15. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    There are going to need to be big changes to the tech tree to support it which is why I want to do it as a separate mod (modmod?). For example Scriptures will become a building and the current Scriptorium will be an extension to the monastery. Some techs will only be available through the use of a Great Prophet (Polytheism, Monotheism and Dualism come to mind) but will still be required for later techs. I am almost at the stage where I can draw up some pictures and documents showing how this may work. There are just a a few fiddly bits on how to link it all together to work out. I currently haven't worked out how multiple religions in the one city will work for instance.
     
  16. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Let me work out the Ideas project and you'll have a LOT to work with there - this does sound pretty cool off the top though.
     
  17. stoferb

    stoferb Prince

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    Actually communism and socialism are outgrowths of marxism and the big divide, that have only grown bigger with time, happened quite early, already in the 19th century, in that socialists didn't believe in any "revolution" and thus in striving for achieving their ideals peacfully and democratically while communists kept to the belief that nothing short of revolution and enlighted oligarchy could lead society right. And this explains the 20th century east-west divide quite well. Communism created various one-party states ruled by various nutjobs, and socialism has slowly merged with other political ideologies to create all kinds of political parties and philosophies.
     
  18. Yudishtira

    Yudishtira Spiritual/Creative

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    Hmm. Mass Produced Steel tech gives you:
    - the Ironworks national wonder, which (well what else?:mischief:) produces Steel (Ingots)
    - the Iron Frigate, which I surmise (from the name etc.) is armoured with iron not steel

    :confused:
     

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