[GS] Inca Discussion Thread

[ChocolateShake]

I'm pretty sure that they will be the first civ I play with, food overload

I do love building massive cities and a nice-looking and good UI is always something I enjoy They're definitely a contender for the first civ for me too.

 

[Tiger Genocide]

Inca PVP must be interesting, hide your UUs behind mountains and try to trap and kill your enemy in 1 turn!
Once your UU being attacked it becomes too weak.

Yeah it could be interesting to use.

Potato McWhiskey brought it up on his video yesterday about how it might be good to build a few scouts and get them promoted early then upgrade them for attacking someone. You could get extra movement over hills or rainforest if your neighbor you want to attack is surrounded by that.

That works for singleplayer I suppose, but multiplayer can be tough to do that. Likely if you know war will start early, you probably do not want to waste production building 3-5 scouts just to have them sit around or killing barbs for their first promotion so that you can upgrade them later. Too much opportunity cost it would seem. Promotions on multiplayer are tougher to keep because losing units fighting another human are more common.

That said, if you have the extra movement points (they start with 3 by default) from the promotion tree, these guys could remind you of a mix of a camel archer and a Chu ko nu archer from Civ 5. If we could get a way to shuffle in and out and attack, that could be useful indeed considering how slow movement is in Civ 6. I do not expect Civ 5 (Skirmisher Class units) Vox Populi-like movement, but it could be a little more than what we currently get.

 

[Lord Lakely]

All that extra production and appeal from mountains is pretty dope if you're going cultural as well.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

They need an aqueduct to get more prod... this is going to be one fat civ filling slots with amenity cards. With all that mountain and hill around they will be difficult cities to take, and they may be 1 range slingers but on hills that’s all they need, heaven help them getting 4 promo’s for a triple shot. Sort of a civ you just leave to wallow there. Quite a novel and immersive civ to play with a great Incan flavour by the looks.
I can see the Spanish appearing over the saddle and turning away cursing that there is no gold in them thar hills.

Additionally, since unique infrastructure is auto-razed on conquest, Incan cities will likely starve down to lower population levels when captured. Like the Korean unique campus, they aren't of much value to would-be conquerors.

 

[Wingednosering]

Similar to what I said to Trav'ling Canuck, there are two lenses in which people seem to see Civ.

One is the notion that the game is all about some kind of exercise in efficiency, executing an optimized script for beelining to victory. If you find yourself making choices, something in the script requires fine-tuning. Civ's are "strong" or "weak" based on how well they compliment the script.

The other is the notion that the game should present players with options to suit a variety of strategies. From this perspective, civ's that make an otherwise discarded mode of play viable are appealing.

While this is correct, I think there's a generalization that can be made. Both sets of players want the same thing.

Good game design is often about choice. Not all choices need to be equal, but ideally, the player has multiple paths to victory that are all viable.

The max/miners don't only want max/min boosts. I'm sure they would be very happy with there being twenty different ways to play and still beat Deity provided you thought your strategy through and executed it correctly, but that isn't how the game is made.

If everything is equally viable, the game is just better for it. AI improves, it becomes more approachable for new players, max/miners get more to play with, role players can still compete...the list goes on.

Unfortunately, civ VI is so imbalanced right now that a few strategies are about 4x more effective than casual play. The skill floor and ceiling produce a massive chasm. This is great for competitive games or games where the AI can handle it, but civ is neither.

The AI doesn't have the same skill as a player, which means it inevitably falls closer to the floor. Inflating their yields raises them up a bit, but with the balance the way it is, greater boosts just make those super OP strategies the only way to win, which in turn makes the rest of the game seem unusable and highlights the problems.

I'm sure everybody would be happy if food and housing to have value.

 

[Victoria]

starve down

Yup, that loyalty loss through starvation AND unhappiness combined with the rough and restrictive terrain means Incas are likely a noob trap. Starvation + unhappy = -10. thats a rebel in 3 turns situation with no easy way out.

 

[Leathaface]

I've had a good think about the Inca and TBH i'm not really impressed with them. Building terrace farms next to mountains takes away good possible campus spots plus the terrace farm take away a mine. Production is much more important than food in Civ VI, a lot of food doesn't help you at all.

About terrace farms getting production when placed next to fresh water and aqueducts. You only get 1 bonus production when placed on a hill next to fresh water, i'd prefer the extra hammer over the food and to place my farms elsewhere. Terrace farms would be worthwhile if you had 3 hills next to an aqueduct, but rarely in my games do I have flat land next to city center (to build the aqueduct) with 3 hills surrounding it. Plus tiles which are on a river and adjacent to your city center can be very valuable tiles. You could place good districts.

Overall i'd give the Inca a D, they get no bonuses to building districts or wonders and they just seem bland in all areas. Their major strength is getting a load of food in their cities, but food isn't important in Civ VI where you have the housing system and all that extra food doesn't get your more great people like in Civ V.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

While this is correct, I think there's a generalization that can be made. Both sets of players want the same thing.


The max/miners don't only want max/min boosts. I'm sure they would be very happy with there being twenty different ways to play and still beat Deity provided you thought your strategy through and executed it correctly, but that isn't how the game is made.

I'm pretty sure this isn't true. There are already 20 different ways to play and win.

The problem is that there's always going to be one "best way," no matter what the game or what balances are made. And to some people, if it's not the best way then it's crap, and you if you don't use it you shouldn't even be playing really.

 

[DWilson]

I'm trying to imagine how to code a mod that would allow improvements to stay on capture, but with more limited yields and unrepairable tiles. Something like: all civs get generic version of all of the unique tile improvements, tied to an impossible to unlock hidden tech, and generating (let's say) 1-2 culture total. Each civ with a unique improvement then gets a unique version of the generic copy, which modifies yeilds and unlocking tech appropriately.

With that, I would guess it behaves like unique districts and buildings on capture, with the added caveat that conquerers don't know how to fix them if they are damaged. But, it offers the pleasant aesthetic of keeping them on the map and allowing one to admire what they've conquered, without all of the benefits that make them unique (which would probably be OP).

 

[steveg700]

The paths weren't hidden, though. They were the imperial roads. I think it makes more sense for tunnels and paths to be public in the game. Otherwise, it's unbalanced.

Indeed, the Great Andean Road of Civ V.

I agree, but, as you mentioned, I think they will favour a peaceful playstyle, hence science I think. But it is true that they have the tools to potentially get aggressive

If a civ has ample production and population, then they have anything.

 

[Victoria]

i'm not really impressed

Weirdly I am. Not a civ to win quickly with but also not a civ thats gonna die fast either. They have tunnel toys very early (ever wanted to get to that hidden valley?) and getting a slinger to triple shot has got to be tried. It sort of looks good so I think the immersive side is great. Just accept you are going to be very large and have to use slots for amenities. The best way to take the civ is probably pillage and flip a city a few times until the pop is reduced enough for you to go in happy and fed.

Governor + ecstatic = +14
Governor + happy = +11
Governor + unhappy and starving = -2

big diff

 

[OmegaDestroyer]

I like how quick people are to judge the new civs at first glance. I'm tempted to create another doom thread.

 

[steveg700]

Unfortunately, civ VI is so imbalanced right now that a few strategies are about 4x more effective than casual play. The skill floor and ceiling produce a massive chasm. This is great for competitive games or games where the AI can handle it, but civ is neither.

The AI doesn't have the same skill as a player, which means it inevitably falls closer to the floor. Inflating their yields raises them up a bit, but with the balance the way it is, greater boosts just make those super OP strategies the only way to win, which in turn makes the rest of the game seem unusable and highlights the problems.

I'm sure everybody would be happy for food and housing to have value.

I do not quite understand why anyone would devote time to devise the optimal strategy for beating a game that is not able to pose an exciting strategic challenge. Rather, it would make more sense to find a different game.

My experiences listening to such deity players usually does not give the impression that they are open to exploring numerous stratagems before deeming some to be the best and others to be weak. Instead, once a consensus has been reached on what works, their minds are made up. And worse still, when next content is made available (such as new civ's), the reaction isn't "well, this offers something new". Everything is evaluated against the accepted status quo.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

My experiences listening to such deity players usually does not give the impression that they are open to exploring numerous stratagems before deeming some to be the best and others to be weak. Instead, once a consensus has been reached on what works, their minds are made up.

Really? Because my experience is exactly the opposite. We're avid consumers of new strategy suggestions, and truly enjoy trying out new and different ways of playing the game. How could you possibly form even a remote idea of what courses of action lead to higher yielding empires if you don't try different approaches to see how they each turn out?

 

[Victoria]

Everything is evaluated against the accepted status quo.

Wish I could like this twice.
Post initial release status quo was internal trade routes were king, mentioning otherwise was asking to be attacked.

for beating a game that is not able to pose an exciting strategic challenge.

You misunderstand... its not about the winning, it is about the speed of winning. And in a game that can get quite boring and long later on, speeding things up is what they want to do, nothing wrong with that... it's the willingness to consider alternatives that is important.

If often see criticism of min/maxxers in many forms, especially chopping. The trouble is conversations are either about how cool something is or how something could be done better... The first is for immersives and the second is for min/max players. It's a sharing loving site.

 

[Siptah]

Weirdly I am. Not a civ to win quickly with but also not a civ thats gonna die fast either. They have tunnel toys very early (ever wanted to get to that hidden valley?) and getting a slinger to triple shot has got to be tried. It sort of looks good so I think the immersive side is great. Just accept you are going to be very large and have to use slots for amenities. The best way to take the civ is probably pillage and flip a city a few times until the pop is reduced enough for you to go in happy and fed.

Governor + ecstatic = +14
Governor + happy = +11
Governor + unhappy and starving = -2

big diff

You cannot gain a third attack, that promotion is unavailable.

 

[steveg700]

How could you possibly form even a remote idea of what courses of action lead to higher yielding empires if you don't try different approaches to see how they each turn out?

Well, you can't really, but it's just a human tendency towards jumping to conclusions, and believing that people who don't share our priorities are doing so out of ignorance. Dunning-Kruger effect and all that.

 

[Kimiimaro]

It's been a day since the First Look release, so it was usual time for me to dive deep into the YouTube comments from the First Look. I'd also like to apologise for not doing this for Canada - I wanted to read through the thread, but the discussion there was very... active and the thread was growing very quicky.

Allright, now it's time for me to present what I learned:

- The feedback seems to be very positive about the Inca Empire.
- Pachacuti's look is often commented on.
- I believe some Emperor's New Groove references are there, too.
- Some people there noticed Machu Picchu.
- Several Spanish comments I wasn't able to read due to my zero knowledge of Spanish.
- Food. Very much food for Inca.
- Civ demands. Surprisingly, this time, the most demanded was not the Ottoman Empire, but Portugal

 

[steveg700]

You cannot gain a third attack, that promotion is unavailable.

...For units of the recon category, that is.

Can't fault someone for not knowing. How the hell often does a recon unit make it to a level IV promotion?

Skirmishers sound like a good addition, but it's not going to help most scouts unless recon units get the ability to upgrade in any type of territory, not just friendly.

 

[pgm123]

Wish I could like this twice.

That's what I remember. That's no longer the case?