Indefinite preNES: Fantasy

[Lord of Elves]

I don't like the Dark is Bad setup you have going. I explicitely picked Sun and Moon because neither is necessarily better than the other: if I wanted a complete anti-Sun, I'd have gone with a black hole or something.

Helions, as illustrated in Bombshoo's picture, would get their energy from the sun. That's the only place they could get their energy, and they're incredibly inefficient in using it (because they've never had to worry about that). When they came to Earth, they'd have a lot of weight to throw around, but they'd be running on batteries, and would be inefficient in recouping solar power.

Lunites would be extremely efficient users of energy, but not so good at storing it. They'd cluster in areas with a lot of energy, simply because they don't have the batteries that the Helions do and can only carry a little around with them. Possibly responsible for teaching man how to use magic, as mages basically do the same thing as them. Their relationship with mages, and dependence on outside energy, might see a lot working as partners/familiars with mages.

To be honest, my opinion continues to be that the whole "duel-world", prospect is simply too impractical for the purposes of an NES.

If we're hard-set on it, however, I have a proposition. Those of you familiar with the Warcraft universe are almost certainly familiar with the Dark Portal, which allows residents of the planets of Azeroth and Draenor to travel between their two locales. While this is more interplanetary transportation, there could be a portal of sorts in our universe which would allow residents of the two mirror worlds to travel between their alternate realities. Indeed, control of the portal could be an important objective for nations within the game to achieve, to blockade a possible assault by the inhabitants of the mirror world, or perpetrate their own.

Furthermore, as opposed to some sort of "natural portal", that has always been there, powers of magic might be able to open "rifts", in between the worlds which would allow members thereof to pass between and arrive (safely?) on the other side. Inspiration for this credited to the Elder Scrolls, at least in this case.

Thoughts?

 

[das]

How about we just go with humans or a "generic humanoid race" as sort of a baseline species, with different players making local adjustments for their groups with regards to appearance, abilities and alignment? Adjustments can ofcourse be pretty dramatic (to the point of making elves) and explained by a whole lot of things.

The two-world concept is nonviable, though, at least for a "fresh start" sort of NES.

 

[LDiCesare]

I dislike a mirror world theme, but dual worlds is certainly doable. Think Master of Magic: Two worlds, the possibility to go from one to the other through towers. It's not really that different from needing a port to cross the sea.
(In MoM, the worlds are separated early on because the towers that link them are full of tough monsters. Which means most players start on one world, with a loner on the other, who's probably been put there just to make the endgame a bit harder for the human player.).
I also dislike dark/light things or other such simple dichotomies.

If you want shattered/layered worlds and eras, I think the number of worlds would vary with ages. Like there were initially several worlds each with their own deities (I like that these deities are the product of the inhabitants of the world, like in Discworld). Some deities tried to conquer more land, and managed to merge their universe with another one. Other deities or people just wanted to be able to trade with their neighbours, who might not have been as happy to meet them.
Meetings of worlds, and their mergings, would be cataclysmic. Worlds would splinter and reunite, making different ages.
The current-day world could be split in two, with some powers wanting them merged, and others wanting them to splinter even more into the original shards.

One point here is that the main goals are either isolationism or uniting the world, rather than good/evil. Isolationists can either want to splinter for 'good' or 'evil' reasons...

 

[mgsmuhammad]

On the subject of the Ragnarok, do the mortal races understand its true nature, or the true nature of the gods at all? Or do they regard it as some sort of doomsday event that has pervaded past generations, unlikely to come again, or further, a terrible conflagration against which all efforts must be taken against?

Going back to the subject of Ragnarok (again ), might I suggest that one of the apocalyptic scenarios could take some hints from it?

Particularly Surtur. Nothing says end of the world like a massive fire-demon who sits on the edge of the earth, watching it until the last day, before charging into battle and engulfing EVERYTHING (man, monster and god alike) in flames.

 

[Masada]

I personally like the idea of having two-worlds which mirror each other closely. If we really wanted to take this to extremes we could send one set of orders for the 'real world' which would also have an effect on the 'mirror world'. In this system actions taken in one world would happen in the other but with slightly different particulars and results. In both worlds I might order a temple to be constructed. In one world it might end up as a house of horrors replete with blood sacrifice while in the other it might be a beacon of enlightenment to the population. Your control over the 'real world' would be better than your control over the 'mirror world' but only just.

Theoretically we could take this even further. The two temples would then be considered to be 'touching'. These would represent fixed points of references between the worlds. My blood cult might overrun my whole continent in the 'real world'. But this wouldn't be reflected in the 'fake world' necessarily. But for these 'fixed' points it would cross-over between the worlds. If I was to build up my temple of blood to augment its magical powers it would have a countervailing effect on my temple of good. Quite what, wouldn't be clear at least initially. The blood cult power might leak over and turn the whole 'mirror world' continent to violence or it might simple augment its power of good. Who, knows?

To make it even more interesting we could have, and I hesitate to use the word, 'teams' of players who are randomly matched up to be inversions of each other. I don't believe we need to have absolute evil against absolute good match-ups. We could have anyone matching up. The real point of interest would be to have our 'fixed' points interfering and causing chaos during the course of the game. I was trying to figure out how we could reconcile this kind of thing without having to run two separate worlds, I haven't come up with a means although I think most of us have accepted that is probably desirable anyway. It could just be that we play on one world with the same mechanic.

It would be even more interesting if these sites of power linked up across multiple players. Only the mod would know precisely who was affecting whom and what the consequences of a particular action might be. It would be amusing if a player unleashed a whole magical apocalypse against an opponent only to have it reverberate through to another player who also suffered immeasurably only to have to it in-turn rebound back on the original player. The resulting cataclysm might annihilate whole continents. Positive feedback like this over a certain mod determined threshold would allows us to wield powerful magic with consequences.

I guess this system of linkages might be broadly applied. Whatever. I'm just hoping that if we do come up with something it is interesting. More on that below.

*

I don't believe that just having 'portals' or anything is going to make the setting all that interesting. We would all know the mechanic is in use and the effects would be accordingly negligible. Similarly, inverting existing archetypes like elves to be 'evil' or something similarly droll isn't really all that fun. Its been done. Repeatedly. I know it was cool in the early nineties to subvert the genre but its now decidedly mainstream.

Similarly, the good-evil dichotomy is boring. Even the two goods at opposing ends duelling over some concept or another thing is old chestnuts. Heck, I would go so far as to say that having an overarching set of principles at the start invites meta-gaming. It would be better if the mod came up with something and if the players slowly discovered it through a learning process.

It might be the case that the mod doesn't even tell us what the mechanics are. We might just start, be given a few hints and sent on our merry-way in true fresh-start style. By the end of the first turn some of might have discovered that blood sacrifices can reinvigorate the flesh. That certain vital fluids can be used to resurrect the dead. And that virgins can nifty vessels for things we-don't-quite-know-what-they-are. Still others of us might figure out that we can over-time change form. We might be able to in a few generations to breed in a set of armour plates, wings, elongate our fingers or generally shift our appearance. Others might be gifted with intuitive knowledge of magic.

This could arise through a process of Q&A between the mod and the player. The mod might ask us a few simple questions: Do you like legal systems or do you think it impedes natural justice?; is knowledge a worthy end of itself or is it just means to an end?; etc. Over-time a system of mechanics that suits the players outlook might be generated. The particulars might in part be related during updates. So to take our blood sacrifice example it might be found that sacrificing virgins is actually giving horrors shape and form and that they've been slowly assimilating our society. We might even become the aforementioned horrors. Our particular mechanics might be shaped by that. We could fight back and reject blood magic opting for a compromise system that uses our own blood. Or we could embrace the dark and acquire new powers based not on blood but on pain. In the other case we might elect to become apex predators, complete with razor sharp teeth, armour, 9 foot tall frames and an innate resistance to magic. Our 'technology' might be built around 'shaping' biological mass to suit our purposes. We could breed security systems, shape vast living cities and so forth. Finally, we might figure out that the magic we're adapt at has an annoying tendency to degrade our physical form. We might use it to shape ourselves new forms that doesn't degrade. Of course, there might be issues associated with doing that. The feedback from what is presumably going to some serious magic might be a continent shattering apocalypse as positive feedback moves through the system.

Presupposing what we should be kind of takes the fun out of it. It would be kinda cool if we went into the NES as clay to be moulded by our environment and shaped by our choices. Having said that, once again I'll reiterate that generic evil elves or whatever is pretty drat boring...

 

[merciary]

I like the concept of the mirror worlds, but I'd rather not go with them as in my opinion sticking with two worlds that more or less are the same would limit the amount we can do with the world.

 

[LDiCesare]

Masada, the worlds that you describe aren't mirrors. They may start as such, but will evolve and change. If a war is won in one world and the temple destroyed, must the second world also suffer the same fate? It would mean there's actually just one world and a shadow of it, which serves little purpose. If the worlds can evolve differently, then they can never be mirrors of each other except at the time of creation. After a few centuries, they are likely to be radically different.
You're assuming players would have control over both worlds. I assume players would have control where they stand, probably only one world, or in both if they crossed the boundaries.
I'm strongly against having effects in one world affect the other magically except in key places where they are linked.
I'm much more interested in worlds having different laws, like (one kind of) magic being strong in one world and not in the other, movement being faster in one world than the other, temperature being different, and whatever creative effects upon the laws of physics, magic, biology and whatnot one can imagine. (For instance, if you die in one world, you go to the other as an adult, if you die there you will be reborn in the first world in the next infant to come to life...)

And I agree that dichotomies of any kind are simplistic. I'd rather people try to compete for their own selfish reasons instead of reasons provided to them from the outside.

 

[Daftpanzer]

I've been meaning to post some ideas here. I have some reading up to do but wish to say a couple of things:

* Clockwork Men (Metal Golems)

* Aztec-ish Feathered Reptilians

* Giant monoliths flying around the world via ley line levitation.

 

[Seon]

Subscribed. Sounds interesting enough.

 

[bombshoo]

Masada, the worlds that you describe aren't mirrors. They may start as such, but will evolve and change. If a war is won in one world and the temple destroyed, must the second world also suffer the same fate? It would mean there's actually just one world and a shadow of it, which serves little purpose. If the worlds can evolve differently, then they can never be mirrors of each other except at the time of creation. After a few centuries, they are likely to be radically different.
You're assuming players would have control over both worlds. I assume players would have control where they stand, probably only one world, or in both if they crossed the boundaries.
I'm strongly against having effects in one world affect the other magically except in key places where they are linked.
I'm much more interested in worlds having different laws, like (one kind of) magic being strong in one world and not in the other, movement being faster in one world than the other, temperature being different, and whatever creative effects upon the laws of physics, magic, biology and whatnot one can imagine. (For instance, if you die in one world, you go to the other as an adult, if you die there you will be reborn in the first world in the next infant to come to life...)

And I agree that dichotomies of any kind are simplistic. I'd rather people try to compete for their own selfish reasons instead of reasons provided to them from the outside.

"Mirror" doesn't have to be taken literally. Think of it more as though the worlds have matching counterparts to various extremes.

I actually think the idea of them diverging sounds rather cool. It would also be a good way to implement Ragnarok and start over. When the two worlds lose enough of the balance between them, a restart is needed in order to prevent complete chaos.

 

[Angst]

I heavily approve of a lot of posts. I like Masada's idea of the mod asking players a couple of questions as the NES went on, to have the player unwillingly shape its own nation. If the NES began just at the beginning of an age (after a cataclysm), the races would probably all start from scratch.

I also like the examples of how grand-scale magic could change the fates of the other realm if going by the mirror/sun-moon/twilight system.

@mgsmuhammad - Forcing players to fight against a world gorger that would otherwise end the NES as they know it at the end of an era is a good thing. Nice catch there. Like how Thlayli shaped the world in N3S. It's a good thing.

LDICesare - I didn't catch, did you prefer multiple worlds or one world? I understand that you don't like the mirrored worlds.

I don't like the Dark is Bad setup you have going. I explicitely picked Sun and Moon because neither is necessarily better than the other: if I wanted a complete anti-Sun, I'd have gone with a black hole or something.

I think this was a reply to me, and I'd like to comment on that.

When I used Magic: the Gathing's Lorwyn-Shadowmoor as an example, it wasn't meant as "one world is good and one is evil" - Lorwyn-Shadowmoor was interesting because it was one world which underwent a couple of centuries of eternal spring and growth, then changed suddenly into a withering autumn realm of decay for a couple of centuries. Like a year's cycle, only much slower. Lorwyn-Shadowmoor had a feature as well with its races changing with the world around them; for example, the warm, glowing flamekin would become ever-tormented ashfolk, the hearty kithkin (Hobbits sorta) would become frightened and have their eyes glow mothlike; but that actually has nothing to do with my point.

What I thought was that with the sun world rising into summer, the moon world become colder and more lifeless; and that as it would cycle, the moon world would eventually become warm while the summer would fall into an ice age; each in its special way. I can imagine that one world's winter would be snowless decay while the other world would have an ice age. Sorta that.

@Daftpanzer - Good to see you join.

@Seon - Same to you.

@On races/specific deities - that includes helions/aztec raptors and evil elves: Ideas like this are good, but I think that first off, we have to settle with one sort of world first. Otherwise, brainstorming is fine, but if there's put too much work into it, it's not that probably a race would fit, and players would have to go kill their darling, and that's rarely pleasant (If they know what that is; I hope it's a common concept). However, I would approve severely for the namings of helions/lunites for the demigods of each respective mirrored realm - that is, would if we settle with that. People seem quite positive on that basic idea, so that might be where we settle. (And now, please, anyone who doesn't think so, add your thoughts why it's not a good idea and let's discuss it further. I want this to be perfect, so whatever we settle with, I want as many mistakes or weaknesses fixed as possible.)

 

[Lord of Elves]

I heavily approve of a lot of posts. I like Masada's idea of the mod asking players a couple of questions as the NES went on, to have the player unwillingly shape its own nation. If the NES began just at the beginning of an age (after a cataclysm), the races would probably all start from scratch.

I also like the examples of how grand-scale magic could change the fates of the other realm if going by the mirror/sun-moon/twilight system.

@mgsmuhammad - Forcing players to fight against a world gorger that would otherwise end the NES as they know it at the end of an era is a good thing. Nice catch there. Like how Thlayli shaped the world in N3S. It's a good thing.

LDICesare - I didn't catch, did you prefer multiple worlds or one world? I understand that you don't like the mirrored worlds.



I think this was a reply to me, and I'd like to comment on that.

When I used Magic: the Gathing's Lorwyn-Shadowmoor as an example, it wasn't meant as "one world is good and one is evil" - Lorwyn-Shadowmoor was interesting because it was one world which underwent a couple of centuries of eternal spring and growth, then changed suddenly into a withering autumn realm of decay for a couple of centuries. Like a year's cycle, only much slower. Lorwyn-Shadowmoor had a feature as well with its races changing with the world around them; for example, the warm, glowing flamekin would become ever-tormented ashfolk, the hearty kithkin (Hobbits sorta) would become frightened and have their eyes glow mothlike; but that actually has nothing to do with my point.

What I thought was that with the sun world rising into summer, the moon world become colder and more lifeless; and that as it would cycle, the moon world would eventually become warm while the summer would fall into an ice age; each in its special way. I can imagine that one world's winter would be snowless decay while the other world would have an ice age. Sorta that.

@Daftpanzer - Good to see you join.

@Seon - Same to you.

@On races/specific deities - that includes helions/aztec raptors and evil elves: Ideas like this are good, but I think that first off, we have to settle with one sort of world first. Otherwise, brainstorming is fine, but if there's put too much work into it, it's not that probably a race would fit, and players would have to go kill their darling, and that's rarely pleasant (If they know what that is; I hope it's a common concept). However, I would approve severely for the namings of helions/lunites for the demigods of each respective mirrored realm - that is, would if we settle with that. People seem quite positive on that basic idea, so that might be where we settle. (And now, please, anyone who doesn't think so, add your thoughts why it's not a good idea and let's discuss it further. I want this to be perfect, so whatever we settle with, I want as many mistakes or weaknesses fixed as possible.)

I have no problem with doing Helions/Lunites, I will simply create a different/similar culture to what I was planning to do with the Elves depending on how I feel when the game starts up. So long as we are going with something reasonably flexible.

 

[bombshoo]

Do we have an origin for the Helions and Lunites? What about their demigods?

 

[Angst]

My idea was that Helions and Lunites would be names for the demigods of each mirrored world.

 

[bombshoo]

My idea was that Helions and Lunites would be names for the demigods of each mirrored world.

Actually what I meant was do we know about origin of the Sun and the Moon themselves in this yet?

 

[Angst]

I'm not sure. Perhaps if we use the splinter theory (Two ancient gods fought only to splinter in smaller pieces; the real world and its demigods), the sun and moon could be the gods' hearts or souls, burning in the sky, or reflecting in silence.

 

[bombshoo]

How about something like making the Sun and Moon mostly passive, sleeping gods and it is their followers (the helions and lunites) who use the opposing traits of the two as an excuse for fighting for their own selfish needs? This is sort of a balance between the standard light vs. dark dichotomy and players/gods doing things for their own selfish needs.

 

[Masada]

Rules should evolve. They shouldn't be static.

Masada, the worlds that you describe aren't mirrors. They may start as such, but will evolve and change.

Sure, that's the point.

If a war is won in one world and the temple destroyed, must the second world also suffer the same fate?

Sure, if that happened then it might well have an effect, it might well not. That's up to the mod. Discretion in this kind of thing makes things interesting. I suppose if it was destroyed with care then nothing might happen, it might still manifest interesting magical effects but there won't be a large disturbance leaking over. Conversely, if its destroyed by blood magic then it might leak over into the other world and get amplified through the whole system. Drawing on some of the ideas put forward by other people this might bring the 'moon' into the ascendancy draining magical ability from the other world for a period of time. On this note, we could represent the strength of the 'phases' by I dunno like a DEFCON countdown. At DEFCON 1 magic might be weak while at DEFCON 5 it might be possible for a mediocre mage to level a city. The two could be two sides of the same coin. If magic strengthens in the one, it weakens the other and so forth. It might be an interesting mechanic to consider.

It would mean there's actually just one world and a shadow of it, which serves little purpose. If the worlds can evolve differently, then they can never be mirrors of each other except at the time of creation. After a few centuries, they are likely to be radically different.

Well, radically different within some constraints. That's the point. There's no way to have a mirror world that actually works fully in-game. This gives us an interesting mechanic without burdening it down to with to much detail. That latter part should be mod prerogative and not player prerogative. Knowing how or why it works as it does would just rationalise it and steal all the fun derived from experimenting with it.

You're assuming players would have control over both worlds. I assume players would have control where they stand, probably only one world, or in both if they crossed the boundaries.

You might as well have two entirely separate NESes in that case. It isn't particularly interesting.

I'm much more interested in worlds having different laws, like (one kind of) magic being strong in one world and not in the other, movement being faster in one world than the other, temperature being different, and whatever creative effects upon the laws of physics, magic, biology and whatnot one can imagine. (For instance, if you die in one world, you go to the other as an adult, if you die there you will be reborn in the first world in the next infant to come to life...)

I'll reiterate. We might as well play two different NESes. And how does that work in terms of game-play? How do you reconcile that? I can move faster... well what does that actually mean in concrete terms.

"Mirror" doesn't have to be taken literally. Think of it more as though the worlds have matching counterparts to various extremes.

Yeah.

I actually think the idea of them diverging sounds rather cool. It would also be a good way to implement Ragnarok and start over. When the two worlds lose enough of the balance between them, a restart is needed in order to prevent complete chaos.

Also, this.

I heavily approve of a lot of posts. I like Masada's idea of the mod asking players a couple of questions as the NES went on, to have the player unwillingly shape its own nation. If the NES began just at the beginning of an age (after a cataclysm), the races would probably all start from scratch.

Gestalt consciousness. It's that easy. Shapeless clay ready to be formed into something. I wouldn't even have races. Just have indistinct blobs that over time gain forms in response to player actions, mod discretion and whatever else we want to bring to bear.

 

[mgsmuhammad]

On this note, we could represent the strength of the 'phases' by I dunno like a DEFCON countdown. At DEFCON 1 magic might be weak while at DEFCON 5 it might be possible for a mediocre mage to level a city.

The pedantic spirit within me would like to alert you to the fact that DEFCON levels go from 5 to 1, with 1 being global thermonuclear war and 5 being no threat.

Nonetheless, I like your ideas. They could make it very.. unique.

 

[Masada]

The pedantic spirit within me would like to alert you to the fact that DEFCON levels go from 5 to 1, with 1 being global thermonuclear war and 5 being no threat.

Starting at a default of one sounds good.

Nonetheless, I like your ideas. They could make it very.. unique.

There's lots of generic fantasy games floating around.