Independent Civilization ideas

[Kyriakos]

Remember the option to have animated map objects (including cities) A few frames really would bring the map to life.

 

[ShiroKobbure]

Does anyone know what the status of this project is?

 

[Takhisis]

I… haven't heard from jimmyh in months, I still have the old downloaded version of this thread and I'm to plow through that in the month before term restarts.

 

[Jimmyh]

Well I guess I should try and explain my absence and total lack of communication.
And to tell you the truth, I have no excuse for it, I just didn't want to do it at the time.

Now part of me believes this is down to not having enough support from you guys, I could be wrong on this though.
Things just seemed to have no direction and no clear goals.

Takhisis was probably the most supportive in trying to come up with a list of ideas from the thread, but this just didn't seem to happen. I've just been through the thread myself to copy and paste all the ideas into a text file and then try to sort through and categorise it.
This was looking like a mammoth job and I'm not surprised Takhisis didn't manage to produce any thing, so I'll forgive him on this one

I've not been following civ, but what made me look this back up was the announcement of the source code for Civ5, that and the fact I've been wanting to do some home programming.

I still believe this can be done and am very passionate about an Indie civ type project.
But this is no small project and requires many hours/days/weeks/months/years and tons of support to get done.

At the moment I do not know if I will be picking this back up, if I do, I shall probably go back to the drawing board and do things a little differently.

I would hope that people are still interested in this project and that you are all still enjoying Civ3 and wishing it could do more.

Regards.
James

 

[Takhisis]

Takhisis was probably the most supportive in trying to come up with a list of ideas from the thread, but this just didn't seem to happen. I've just been through the thread myself to copy and paste all the ideas into a text file and then try to sort through and categorise it.
This was looking like a mammoth job and I'm not surprised Takhisis didn't manage to produce any thing, so I'll forgive him on this one

I actually asked a couple times how you wanted me to classify said ideas, as it's nearly impossible to classify them without any criteria. Then uni just flowed over me, so I put this behind…

 

[Jimmyh]

I actually asked a couple times how you wanted me to classify said ideas, as it's nearly impossible to classify them without any criteria. Then uni just flowed over me, so I put this behind…

Could you point me in the direction of this, as I don't recall you asking some thing specific as that.

I agree that you need criteria, I guess what would have been best is a priority list of features/ideas. I mean what would be the basic features needed for some thing to be usable?

And what could have been done to get someone to actually use those features.

 

[Takhisis]

What would be your priorities? Less is more, but only for architects and bikinis, and neither of those is present.

 

[Jimmyh]

What would be your priorities? Less is more, but only for architects and bikinis, and neither of those is present.

Hmm that's a tough one, I don't create scenarios/mods for civ3 so coming up with a priority list wouldn't be so easy for me.

 

[Quinzy]

I'm still interested in this project. I did not want to pester you however.
Take a look at Battle for Wesnoth for some interesting ideas on structuring a TBS.

I don't know how I can help at all. I don't know if I can. But I would be very happy if you were to follow through with this project, and make it easily accessible for modders.

 

[Balthasar]

I, too, am interested in this project. BTW, the Civ5 source code is being released, but not the Civ3 source code? Do you have a link to that announcement? I'd love to see the thinking behind that...

 

[Takhisis]

Hmm that's a tough one, I don't create scenarios/mods for civ3 so coming up with a priority list wouldn't be so easy for me.

This requries browsing around modders' comments, doing a lot of trawling… which I can't do until end of term.

I, too, am interested in this project. BTW, the Civ5 source code is being released, but not the Civ3 source code? Do you have a link to that announcement? I'd love to see the thinking behind that...

I'll explain the thinking behind that. It's Firaxis/2K/etc.

 

[Jimmyh]

I'm still interested in this project. I did not want to pester you however.
Take a look at Battle for Wesnoth for some interesting ideas on structuring a TBS.

I don't know how I can help at all. I don't know if I can. But I would be very happy if you were to follow through with this project, and make it easily accessible for modders.

Any one can help by being supportive, give ideas and using/testing the tools provided

I, too, am interested in this project. BTW, the Civ5 source code is being released, but not the Civ3 source code? Do you have a link to that announcement? I'd love to see the thinking behind that...

No the Civ3 source code is not being released, u'd see Steph getting all excited if that were the case.

This requries browsing around modders' comments, doing a lot of trawling… which I can't do until end of term.

I'll explain the thinking behind that. It's Firaxis/2K/etc.

It's quite clear that this needs to start small, there's no point in going through all the ideas and implementing them and then no one using it. Which at the moment is my biggest concern and always has been, it's that I'll do all this work and no one use's any of it.

People here fall into a few categories:

• People who create total conversion of the base game, replacing all elements.
• People who create smaller scenarios using elements of the base game.
• People who will create additional art files. New Unit art, city graphics, terrain etc.
• People who will just come here and look for some thing new to play.

Did I miss any one?

Supplying a base game/mod/scenario is going to come with all the problems like, which unit's do we add, what civilizations shall be in it, etc. I don't really want to supply a base game and I don't just want to add one that does what Civ3 does. So that would mean people who want to use the tools will need to create some thing from scratch, or import some thing already created from Civ3 which thinking about it might actually be enough.

So lets see, at what point would this project need to be in order for people to use it. Now I can't answer that question as I don't create content. But lets look at the basic's of what a civ game would need.

Basic Civ Elements:

Map:

• Any size.

Terrain:

• Ability to add any number of terrain types.

Civilizations:

• ?????

Cities:

• Needs to grow
• Work surrounding tiles
• Construct units
• Construct city improvements

Units:

• Number of moves
• Able to build tile improvements
• Build new cities

Resources:

• ?????

Technology:

• Cost

City Improvements:

• Needs to have an effect on the city

Tile Improvements:

• Need to be able to add tile improvements
• Specify what the tile improvement does

Now I will have missed loads of stuff in that list, but this needs to be the bare minimum that is needed. And at least it's a start.

 

[wuhjah]

My reply may be simple and completely wrong, I'm sorry if it is, but it's how I see it as one who would also like to see this project become something.

Initially, instead of thinking about who will be playing the game, one thinks of who will use it to build a game. Those being the modders. Instead of worrying about which civs should be put in a base game, I just imagine that it can add civs. And then what can those civs do? Do we have the option for traits? How many? Are there options for more than five races, for example?

Instead of which units to include, just that it can add units. And what can these units do more than the original game? My simple example is that I'd like to choose which city receives the bonus shields when I cut down a forest (and it's near two cities.)

Etc., etc.

You are guaranteed people will use it to make games if it can make good games.

Edit on rereading Jimmy's post.
I see more clearly you don't want to add your own base game, so what I said before still applies. It's just a matter of what options are more than what we have. In that regard, I guess it's down to looking at a wish-list and a list of complaints and then changing those things.

One thing more I'd like to add is whether to continue using pcx files. I wonder if going to something else wouldn't be better. The existing work could be changed converted to a new file type unless pcx are superior for some reason or other.

Finally, Takhisis doesn't really need to do it all alone. The thread here is 15 pages and that could be divided up amongst a few people. I would be happy to comb through a few pages. Perhaps here or elsewhere a new wish list /complaint list could be started for people to rattle off a list of what they'd like and then you determine what is feasible.

 

[Quinzy]

I'm all for giving ideas, and I'm happy to test Jimmy.

 

[Takhisis]

In a nutshell, build a modding platform, Jimmy. Without the tools you won't be allowed to make decent scenarios which is what most people want.
As a rule, both the Civiliszation series and the Total War series' vanilla issues are widely derided and people download mods as soon as they can. I'll give you a more detailed answer when I get home.

And yes I'm happy to test.

You should probably enable the hero/special character mechanic the WarCraft series has always had (I've played all games except the MMO) and let people mod from there…

 

[Cyc]

I agree with what wuhjah suggested. Options for building ones own scenario will be key.

I am here to assist in anyway I can (which might not be much). But i do know the Editor and have ideas myself. Be happy to test also.

 

[cemo1956]

A couple of things, that even can be labled hick-ups, should be high on any list IMHO.
The Ai use of Artillery and Armies.
Those are bugs to be sure.....

One thing that often irritates me is the handling of Helicopters. The issue is units can be dropped from cities and airfield, BUT they can´t be picked up and brought home.

Even a small issue with todays choppers taking off from a modern carrier with units aboard.
Thats the issue with units that can load other units can´t be loaded themselve. Something got to be wrong on this.

Perhaps the possibility for workers to create canals like Suez and Panama ???

And why not bring pack from old Civs the old defensive extras against certain units.
Pikemen had extra bonus vs horses (That came back in Civ4 I believe)
That will open up not only medieval warfare but AT issues vs tanks.

My 2 cents....

 

[Quintillus]

I understand the not being in the mood for doing it conundrum. I think that affects most members of this forum at various points; sometimes other things are simply more interesting. I don't know if it's applicable to you, but I've also noticed that I don't program as much in my free time now that I'm doing it for a job. For some reason, I usually feel like doing something else in the evenings and on the weekends.

You're also quite right that it's no small project. That's part of the reason I voted for the existing graphics option - that means you can simply plug them in, and not have to worry nearly as much about what's in the base game. I think three main aspects of the project, but one is much bigger and could be implemented in two ways:

• Data structure/storage. You've got some of this already. But you need to to be able to keep and store everything. There's also the question of whether Civ (BIQ, etc.) should be compatible
• Graphics/interface/content. Kind of what you focused on in your post. Obviously important, but if the graphics are compatible, this part becomes much easier.
• Artificial intelligence. The elephant in the room. Everyone complains about Civ3's AI, and sometimes rightfully so, but this is probably the most difficult part to get decent.
• Multiplayer support. I think it would be easier to do this than AI, since, at the minimum, all you really need is a working interface, save files, and a who-is-the-current-player-switching mechanism (for PBEM - although I suppose you could have hotseat sans saves). It's a lot more complex for live multiplayer.

The latter two still depend on the first two being present. But you really need at least one of them to have an actual game. And they need to be at least somewhat comparable to what Civ already has, or it'll be hard to make a case to use it over Civ.

Regardless, it's good to hear from you again!

(Also, I'm surprised they're releasing the Civ5 source code. I'm curious what made that seem like an attractive option when it wasn't for Civ1 through Civ4)

 

[Balthasar]

One thing more I'd like to add is whether to continue using pcx files. I wonder if going to something else wouldn't be better. The existing work could be changed converted to a new file type unless pcx are superior for some reason or other.

That issue was well debated early on, and I believe that the consensus was that we should hope to be able to use as many existing files as possible in the finished product. Don't want to see the thousands of hours spent on creating those files to go to waste.

That said, there is plenty of room for new graphics categories, and I repeat my offer to create whatever new graphics you need to do this, Jimmy. Freeways, Railroads, Military bases, navigable rivers, and pit mines, among others are all possible without disturbing or negating existing graphics. So are multiple maps depicting underground, undersea and space.

For research on this topic, I'd recommend that you play Civ 2: Test of Time, and Sim City 3000, which uses isometric tiles just as Civ 3 does - I've used some of those graphics in my Manhattan terrain, and in the Super Scenario. Both use layered maps to simulate underground terrain to great effect.

The game that you create could have a fail-safe mechanism for this: if the graphic file(s) for a particular terrain isn't in the scenario folder, that option wouldn't be available to a modder.

And I agree with others who have said that the focus of this should be its use as a modding platform, rather than as a stand-alone game, so I wouldn't worry at all about choosing civs, resources and the like. Concentrate, rather, on what more we could do with those elements of the game: I think it would be nice if tradable products could be produced with resources, if diplomats (and spies) could be sent to and inhabit friendly cities (even build embassies?) and if specialized transportation, like trains and planes, could do the same.

I'm so glad that you're back on the job, Jimmy. I recently went through a period in which I was unable, for various personal reasons, to participate here as much as I'd have liked to as well, and I'm still fighting for time to devote to Civving. In my case, I'm determined to stay at it; the Civ3 platform is still the most graphicly interesting, moddable, and playable game platform around, hands down.

 

[Takhisis]

I understand the not being in the mood for doing it conundrum. I think that affects most members of this forum at various points; sometimes other things are simply more interesting. I don't know if it's applicable to you, but I've also noticed that I don't program as much in my free time now that I'm doing it for a job. For some reason, I usually feel like doing something else in the evenings and on the weekends.

I spend so much time typing up essays and presentations that I simply can't browse through a thread for hours on end. I got burned out hosting a forum game for someone else and only after that (it ended in September) I've felt I can do it again. To a degree.

You're also quite right that it's no small project. That's part of the reason I voted for the existing graphics option - that means you can simply plug them in, and not have to worry nearly as much about what's in the base game. I think three main aspects of the project, but one is much bigger and could be implemented in two ways:

• Data structure/storage. You've got some of this already. But you need to to be able to keep and store everything. There's also the question of whether Civ (BIQ, etc.) should be compatible
• Graphics/interface/content. Kind of what you focused on in your post. Obviously important, but if the graphics are compatible, this part becomes much easier.
• Artificial intelligence. The elephant in the room. Everyone complains about Civ3's AI, and sometimes rightfully so, but this is probably the most difficult part to get decent.
• Multiplayer support. I think it would be easier to do this than AI, since, at the minimum, all you really need is a working interface, save files, and a who-is-the-current-player-switching mechanism (for PBEM - although I suppose you could have hotseat sans saves). It's a lot more complex for live multiplayer.

I think…

• As I repeat below, we can't bind everything to the standards and formats from a game released in 2001 and developed throughout the late '90s. We can and should do better. Backwards compatibility shouldn't mean 'let's clone'.
• Don't bind the graphics to an outdated engine.
• This will simply be a matter of not blinding the AI to anythign other than the vanilla game -and it does poorly even at that. The key point is how to get the AI to carry on a strategy across the turns. I sometimes reload the same turn over and over again to see how the AI just chooses a city at random and sends ships there, over and over and over again.
  Perhaps some part of the AI behaviour could be established by the modder him- or herself?
• Live multi? Out of the question. It'd be a nightmare anywhere near this stage.

(Also, I'm surprised they're releasing the Civ5 source code. I'm curious what made that seem like an attractive option when it wasn't for Civ1 through Civ4)

Firaxis' incoherences, of course.

That issue was well debated early on, and I believe that the consensus was that we should hope to be able to use as many existing files as possible in the finished product. Don't want to see the thousands of hours spent on creating those files to go to waste.

Perhaps a converter…? Keeping an outdate format from over a decade ago when Windows 95 was still in use would be an unnecessary anachronism.

That said, there is plenty of room for new graphics categories, and I repeat my offer to create whatever new graphics you need to do this, Jimmy. Freeways, Railroads, Military bases, navigable rivers, and pit mines, among others are all possible without disturbing or negating existing graphics. So are multiple maps depicting underground, undersea and space.

For research on this topic, I'd recommend that you play Civ 2: Test of Time, and Sim City 3000, which uses isometric tiles just as Civ 3 does - I've used some of those graphics in my Manhattan terrain, and in the Super Scenario. Both use layered maps to simulate underground terrain to great effect.

Add the Transport Tycoon game, in its Open TTD form. I've modded for it…

The game that you create could have a fail-safe mechanism for this: if the graphic file(s) for a particular terrain isn't in the scenario folder, that option wouldn't be available to a modder.

Better than Civ's 'insignificant, unnecessary file not found, game will now crash, KTHXBAI' method.

And I agree with others who have said that the focus of this should be its use as a modding platform, rather than as a stand-alone game, so I wouldn't worry at all about choosing civs, resources and the like. Concentrate, rather, on what more we could do with those elements of the game: I think it would be nice if tradable products could be produced with resources, if diplomats (and spies) could be sent to and inhabit friendly cities (even build embassies?) and if specialized transportation, like trains and planes, could do the same.

For one thing, remove the arbitrary limits. You should be able to have an APC,

I'm so glad that you're back on the job, Jimmy. I recently went through a period in which I was unable, for various personal reasons, to participate here as much as I'd have liked to as well, and I'm still fighting for time to devote to Civving. In my case, I'm determined to stay at it; the Civ3 platform is still the most graphicly interesting, moddable, and playable game platform around, hands down.

It's much easier if you can mod with people you know IRL, the only way the TTD project keeps going on is because we prod each other whenever we meet.