India

[Txurce]

The big question is did you get cathedrals, what did you choose? Your post got me thinking, and I think god the expanse is a really good fit. In fact you can likely get away with monument before shrine in the capital. Lets say the monument delayed the shrine 10 turns, that's 20 faith. You only need 1 extra border growth to make up for it.

India really values specific beliefs like cathedrals and cooperation, you are less likely to get them now.

I missed cathedrals, but got Mastery and Cooperation. I went with Pacifism because of my congenital difficulties with happiness. And I took Transcendence because the max value was still available.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

India can have inquisitors now with the new version, awesome!

 

[Funak]

Hadn't actually thought about this that much, but you're absolutely right about all pantheon-choices being terrible. tried doing like 15 India-starts today just to try it out and there wasn't a single time where I felt like the turn 1 pantheon benefitted me beyond the free 50 faith you save. Most pantheons just start out really slowly, and you can't really do much to speed it up.

 

[peterw1987]

Thats why, only expanse, ancestor worship, goddess of love is the fastest religion that have effect immediately and suit any terrain. Protection is quite good early

 

[Gokudo01]

Hadn't actually thought about this that much, but you're absolutely right about all pantheon-choices being terrible. tried doing like 15 India-starts today just to try it out and there wasn't a single time where I felt like the turn 1 pantheon benefitted me beyond the free 50 faith you save. Most pantheons just start out really slowly, and you can't really do much to speed it up.

I think god of expanse is the best bet, it saves lots of gold, is useful from the start and combo very well with tradition.

 

[Funak]

Actually now in 45 tries I've yet to manage to found a religion as India. That being said I haven't gone for Expanse yet.

So far I've tried a multitude of things, like settling off the river, rushing mining and well/shrines to benefit from GoFertility, settling on top of a luxury to try and make use out of GoFestivals (I actually remember this working pretty well before, but now it was a complete mess), GoLove, Ancestor Worship, GoProtection, GoWisdom

I haven't gone for GoaCreation (doubt getting the 2 faith from the start makes that much of a difference, but it might), GoNature (yeah it probably works with the right start, but it works with every civ if you have the right start), SotDesert (probably works with the right start, hard to tell if you have the right start with all resources hidden however), GoCommerce (Would probably work with a mass expansion strategy, but that's kinda true for all civs, and my idea was a tradition-start, not massexpanding), GoPurity (never actually ran into a situation where I had that many lakes, but this is a clear example of a pantheon that works great for India I guess).


Speaking of this, what's up with the AI founding-speed in the latest version, I'm seeing England founding a religion with GoLove when I'm at 200 faith (standard speed), completely outclassed.

 

[CrazyG]

Right now I really think only expanse and love are worth choosing, barring something like a powerful desert, mountain or lake start

god of all worked really well in previous expansions but I missed twice with it last expansion (on immortal and EMPORER). For comparison you could found with it on Deity before. Its obviously weak on faith but you effectively start about 150 faith ahead of anyone else, it used to be enough but not anymore.

Protection isn't a good pantheon anymore, its not realistic to build walls and barracks before all the religions go on higher difficulties.

Speaking of this, what's up with the AI founding-speed in the latest version, I'm seeing England founding a religion with GoLove when I'm at 200 faith (standard speed), completely outclassed

I think the AI literally goes shrine first literally everywhere, you can check logs but it seems the only counter example is Ethiopia...

 

[pandasnail]

I think the AI literally goes shrine first literally everywhere, you can check logs but it seems the only counter example is Ethiopia...

I've started two more since then, and while I didn't look at the logs, the pantheon gaining rate was somewhat slower in both, so I think there's at least a little more variety than that one had. Still earlier pantheons than before, for sure.

 

[CrazyG]

With god of the expanse and monument first, my borders expanded 4 times by turn 30 (about when a tradition-shrine first would get to choose a pantheon). That would be 80 faith, plus 50 not spent on the pantheon. 130 faith about matches an Aztec that kills 18 units, its a solid boost, exactly what I needed. The extra speed isn't bad either, and if you can found a city near another culture tile that city can pull in the faith really fast too.

Wish I could more than faith for expanding, makes me want to try a tradition-authority mix

 

[Txurce]

With god of the expanse and monument first, my borders expanded 4 times by turn 30 (about when a tradition-shrine first would get to choose a pantheon). That would be 80 faith, plus 50 not spent on the pantheon. 130 faith about matches an Aztec that kills 18 units, its a solid boost, exactly what I needed. The extra speed isn't bad either, and if you can found a city near another culture tile that city can pull in the faith really fast too.

Wish I could more than faith for expanding, makes me want to try a tradition-authority mix

That's why Expanse jumped out at me, especially with Tradition.

Let us know how the T/A mix goes. Those combos fascinate me. I'm presently hooked on 2 Aesthetics+Statecraft.

 

[CrazyG]

That's why Expanse jumped out at me, especially with Tradition.

Let us know how the T/A mix goes. Those combos fascinate me. I'm presently hooked on 2 Aesthetics+Statecraft.

I'm hooked on 3 Aesthetics + 3 Piety works beautifully for science games. I've also done Tradition-> 3 Aesthetics ->3 Authority before, which might be a good option for India with Expanse. I've tried mixing statecraft before, but I found that I really want the entire statecraft tree, and generally the 3rd tree is stronger than the other two so I like to avoid delaying.

I was able to found on turn 61 just now using expanse (on pigs). I imagine you can get it really fast if you start on culture luxuries. I think monument before shrine in your capital is correct unless you are really starved for gold. Also worth noting that India is guaranteed to be able to choose Expanse (the AI very often will grab it before turn 20 if you don't)

 

[Funak]

With the recent talk in the tradition-thread, about whether or not tradition suffered from the increased cost of great prophets, one thing is for certain, India suffered a whole lot from that change, and with them not doing very good even before that I really think something needs to be done about it.

I mean I pretty much never saw AI India founding a religion before the increased prophet cost and the removal of AI discount towards great prophet, and now they are clearly even worse off with their discount(free pantheon) being a lower percentage of the total great prophet cost, this is even made somewhat worse by the fact that most pantheons don't do very much directly at the start of the game, and some are even weaker as you've not yet discovered which resources you have nearby.

I'm not saying it's impossible for India to found a religion, I'm just saying that the AI have a massive advantage over a player with the instant pantheon (them starting with more units and with worker(s?)) and they're still not founding.

And yes I totally expect a human player to be able to found a religion using Tradition -> faith from border expansion god of war into spamming units and attacking someone. Probably also by grabbing God of Commerce and fast-expanding. But these are all techniques that works for any civ, and techniques that takes a bunch of work/focus and sometimes fails, and this just isn't fit for a civ that's pretty much dependent on founding a religion to utilize their UA.

To me, India is in the same boat as the Celts if they fail to found a religion, which as you all know really shouldn't happen the celts, ever (and I've also never seen it happen to an AI celt)

 

[ElliotS]

Simple: India starts the game with all ancient era resources revealed and able to build all ancient era improvements right away. This way they can use their head-start for real.

 

[CrazyG]

Maybe if AI India made better pantheon choices he would do better, I definitely agree he under performs. I've seen him pick Earth Mother then build stone henge (meaning pottery first) which is just bad. If you take Earth Mother, you take mining first (even then IDK if its a good pick for India). I would avoid stuff that take a long time to develop, like springtime. I can justify stuff like fishing faith or camps but if the AI takes those he needs to rush those techs immediately.

For humans, God of the Expanse India is fantastically strong and always available. Its a big reason I would consider India a strong civ, he really needs a strong to go pantheon available. Maybe the AI should consider it more.

 

[peterw1987]

I almost miss founding at turn 90 playing india.

I go tradition god expanse. I immediatle settle 4 city. And i have tobacco monopoly quite soon.

I did indeed rush monument first in all my cities for expanse pantheon rather than shrine first. Maybe i should rush shrine first.

And big factor is, i dont get either monument or shrine event until very late(iirc around turn 70+)

 

[CrazyG]

I almost miss founding at turn 90 playing india.

I go tradition god expanse. I immediatle settle 4 city. And i have tobacco monopoly quite soon.

I did indeed rush monument first in all my cities for expanse pantheon rather than shrine first. Maybe i should rush shrine first.

And big factor is, i dont get either monument or shrine event until very late(iirc around turn 70+)

Shrine earns more faith in secondary cities. I also plan to use gold and sometimes settle directly on forest to get the shrines up faster. The capital monument earns your policies faster, and your policies give culture and faith, which is why monument first outperforms shrine first for this very specific strategy.

If you were rushing a tobacco monopoly a different pantheon may have been a better choice. With God of the Expanse I usually don't make workers for some time, just rush out those settlers and escort units. I will often hit 5 pop then build 3 or 4 settlers in a row.

 

[Funak]

Anyways, the question remains, does India need a change?

 

[peterw1987]

Anyways, the question remains, does India need a change?

India has their own niche playstyle thou. Maybe somehow add their way to generate faith like celt 3 faith per city. Maybe faith on farm? Since India is about clustering farm anyway. But i am not sure if that will become too OP.

Btw, does India UA apply to another civ as well?
"for every citizen following your primary religion, increase pop growth and religion pressure in the city". From this sentence, I think other civ with your religion will also get increase pop growth and pressure?

 

[CrazyG]

Anyways, the question remains, does India need a change?

I don't think so. I agree with the part of your post about the AI doing poorly, but I think that is just AI. I find him very strong, in my multiplayer group he occasionally gets banned. You aren't guaranteed to found but I think that is okay, India's mid-late game is much stronger that civs like Ethiopia. The Harappan Reservoir is one of the strongest buildings in the game and its synergy with the UA is disgusting.

"for every citizen following your primary religion, increase pop growth and religion pressure in the city". From this sentence, I think other civ with your religion will also get increase pop growth and pressure?

No it only applies to India's cities (India would be a terrible civ if other civs got the growth benefit)

 

[peterw1987]

I don't think so. I agree with the part of your post about the AI doing poorly, but I think that is just AI. I find him very strong, in my multiplayer group he occasionally gets banned. You aren't guaranteed to found but I think that is okay, India's mid-late game is much stronger that civs like Ethiopia. The Harappan Reservoir is one of the strongest buildings in the game and its synergy with the UA is disgusting.


No it only applies to India's cities (India would be a terrible civ if other civs got the growth benefit)

It does not specifically said owned cities or india cities. It just say in a city and that city.