Infernal stuff
- Thread starter WarKirby
- Start date
WarKirby
Arty person
Wanted to bump this because I have some concerns about the infernals that aren't bugs. Balance issues, really
i'm playing a game as Infernals from the start right now. On patch N. So Xien's tweaks like No manes until Infernal Pact are in effect.
Overall, I'm finding infernals to be somewhat weak to begin with. The infernals ARE an overpowered civ once their full potential is achieved, and I'm pretty sure that's how it's meant to be. But playing them from the start, the new tweaks make them feel a bit inadequate.
The main culprit is undoubtedly the size 3 city limit. Thankfully, new cities start at that size, but until infernal pact is researched, they can't grow.
Playing on Emperor difficulty. With most civs, I can top the scoreboard with relative ease. As infernals, I'm struggling to maintain a position just below the middle. The AI has me significantly outmatched. I can just about keep up through rapid expansion. Just past turn 100 and I have 5 cities so far, about to found a sixth. But overall, the infernals feel a little inadequate.
They're not horribly weak, but I think they could do with a little more. Size 3 city limit is very restrictive, and makes research difficcult. I think it'd be nice if they got some free manes occasionally. Like 1 mane spawning in their capital every 15-20 turns, until turn 200. Wouldn't be a massive advantage, but would make it easier to keep up.
i'm playing a game as Infernals from the start right now. On patch N. So Xien's tweaks like No manes until Infernal Pact are in effect.
Overall, I'm finding infernals to be somewhat weak to begin with. The infernals ARE an overpowered civ once their full potential is achieved, and I'm pretty sure that's how it's meant to be. But playing them from the start, the new tweaks make them feel a bit inadequate.
The main culprit is undoubtedly the size 3 city limit. Thankfully, new cities start at that size, but until infernal pact is researched, they can't grow.
Playing on Emperor difficulty. With most civs, I can top the scoreboard with relative ease. As infernals, I'm struggling to maintain a position just below the middle. The AI has me significantly outmatched. I can just about keep up through rapid expansion. Just past turn 100 and I have 5 cities so far, about to found a sixth. But overall, the infernals feel a little inadequate.
They're not horribly weak, but I think they could do with a little more. Size 3 city limit is very restrictive, and makes research difficcult. I think it'd be nice if they got some free manes occasionally. Like 1 mane spawning in their capital every 15-20 turns, until turn 200. Wouldn't be a massive advantage, but would make it easier to keep up.
WarKirby
Arty person
AAAAUGH.
Alexis just cast River of Blood. Totally crippling
My already barely adequate size 3 cities, were just reduced to size 1.
I feel that worldspell really shouldn't affect Fallow civs. Demons don't bleed, do they?
Alexis just cast River of Blood. Totally crippling
My already barely adequate size 3 cities, were just reduced to size 1.
I feel that worldspell really shouldn't affect Fallow civs. Demons don't bleed, do they?
Aye, fallow should not be affected by the Calabim worldspell. Its anoying if I am the Calabim and my opponent is the Risen Emperor. Usually I would cast as soon as is obviously detrimental to any living civ ... but holding off on the spell has so much potential to be harder on the Scions in the early mid-game. Ak I just cannut decide! 
kenken244
Grammar Nazi
The Infernals are not balanced around being played from the start. Get them in the game the normal way and it will be more balanced.
WarKirby
Arty person
No, they start with no religion, and have to research AV like anyone else.
Their cities start at Size 3 newly founded, but are unable to grow at all until you or someone else researches infernal pact.
xienwolf
Deity
When I built them up for the startout, I wanted them to be pretty dang weak. What I envisioned as the only real feasible approach for them was to REX and beeline Infernal Pact. Starting with a size 3 city on turn 1 should help quite a bit with that. You have to be careful while you REX to keep the AC low as well (as counter-intuitive as that may be) so that demons don't swarm you. (AC controls their spawn rate and limit, so keep it low and you keep them out of creation)
WarKirby
Arty person
But it makes no sense that demons target the infernals.
Their aim is to spread hell to the world. Why would they ruin their own mission by fighting amongst themselves while there's no shortage of pathetic human empires to destroy?
I can understand wanting the infernals to be weak to start with. That's quite logical. But it should be a problem for good nations to nip in the bud by sending in troops and wiping them out before they get off the ground. It seems silly that the infernals are so likely to end up destroying themselves.
When I'm playing a purely demonic race, I'd rather be fighting for my life against crusaders and paladins, than against the demons who are supposed to be my allies.
Keeping the AC low helps, but it is counterintuitive, and still doesn't get rid of the problem. Playing as Hyborem, you have hostile pyre zombies spawning in your territory from a very early point. And unless you can maintain a tech lead (not easy with the size 3 limit) the demons spawning are going to scale in power faster than you can.
As a side note, the Horsemen are ruthless. wow.
I suppose it's my own fault for enabling Last Days. Once the AC hit 40, it shot up to 100 in about 30 turns. Civilizations are dropping like flies. The Blight, plus the Avatar, plus the Armageddon, has caused most of the world to become size 1 undefended cities, while the empires struggle in vain to survive. Mostly, the horsemen are just going around picking off the undefended cities, or occasionally slaying a few warriors in one.
Their aim is to spread hell to the world. Why would they ruin their own mission by fighting amongst themselves while there's no shortage of pathetic human empires to destroy?
I can understand wanting the infernals to be weak to start with. That's quite logical. But it should be a problem for good nations to nip in the bud by sending in troops and wiping them out before they get off the ground. It seems silly that the infernals are so likely to end up destroying themselves.
When I'm playing a purely demonic race, I'd rather be fighting for my life against crusaders and paladins, than against the demons who are supposed to be my allies.
Keeping the AC low helps, but it is counterintuitive, and still doesn't get rid of the problem. Playing as Hyborem, you have hostile pyre zombies spawning in your territory from a very early point. And unless you can maintain a tech lead (not easy with the size 3 limit) the demons spawning are going to scale in power faster than you can.
As a side note, the Horsemen are ruthless. wow.
I suppose it's my own fault for enabling Last Days. Once the AC hit 40, it shot up to 100 in about 30 turns. Civilizations are dropping like flies. The Blight, plus the Avatar, plus the Armageddon, has caused most of the world to become size 1 undefended cities, while the empires struggle in vain to survive. Mostly, the horsemen are just going around picking off the undefended cities, or occasionally slaying a few warriors in one.
xienwolf
Deity
While you don't have Hyborem yet, you are just SOME demons. Demons don't exactly wander around tipping panhandlers, so if you seem weak, anyone who passes by will stomp you just because they can. Seems fairly fitting IMO to give you a feel of being a cog in the machine, dreaming of someday having someone as cool as Giggles or Hyborem taking you under their wing.
WarKirby
Arty person
Another, slightly related issue.
Is there a reason Pax Diabolis is so expensive?
2000
is a hell of a lot.
It seems like something you'd want to use when the AC is rising fast and demons are invading your lands. It's a choice you have to make. But my experience with it in practice, is that it isn't really a choice you CAN make. Once demons start to become a problem, your chances of completing a 2000 ritual before your empire is in ashes, isn't too great.
Considering that you still have to sacrifice a city to do it, I'd argue that the cost isn't warranted.
I'd propose significantly reducing the cost. To 100-200
I personally feel that the loss of a city is hard enough, and that it's presently too expensive to build when you actually need it.
Is there a reason Pax Diabolis is so expensive?
2000
is a hell of a lot.It seems like something you'd want to use when the AC is rising fast and demons are invading your lands. It's a choice you have to make. But my experience with it in practice, is that it isn't really a choice you CAN make. Once demons start to become a problem, your chances of completing a 2000
ritual before your empire is in ashes, isn't too great.Considering that you still have to sacrifice a city to do it, I'd argue that the cost isn't warranted.
I'd propose significantly reducing the cost. To 100-200
I personally feel that the loss of a city is hard enough, and that it's presently too expensive to build when you actually need it.
xienwolf
Deity
High Cost ensures that you build it in a valuable city, OR that you plan ahead and pre-build it "just in case"
WarKirby
Arty person
High cost is one thing,but I think 2000 is a little insane.
Assuming the best, you have entropy mana so double production speed. That's still 1000
The majority of the wonders ingame are 600, and a few of the biggest like the Perfect Lyre are 900. Pax Diabolis Dwarfs them all, on top of the additional cost of losing the city you build it in.
I've never been able to build it legitimately, nor have I seen the AI do so. At times when it has been necessary, the build cost was too great and it was a case of worldbuilder or die.
My thoughts, then.
Reduce cost to 800 (400 with entropy mana). That's still a significant cost, and not easily undertaken in a size 3 village.
Once built, allow the spell to be cast anywhere, rather than only the city it was built in.
Have some minimum prereq for a city to be eligible for sacrifice. like >=8 population
is a little insane.Assuming the best, you have entropy mana so double production speed. That's still 1000
The majority of the wonders ingame are 600, and a few of the biggest like the Perfect Lyre are 900. Pax Diabolis Dwarfs them all, on top of the additional cost of losing the city you build it in.
I've never been able to build it legitimately, nor have I seen the AI do so. At times when it has been necessary, the build cost was too great and it was a case of worldbuilder or die.
My thoughts, then.
Reduce cost to 800 (400 with entropy mana). That's still a significant cost, and not easily undertaken in a size 3 village.
Once built, allow the spell to be cast anywhere, rather than only the city it was built in.
Have some minimum prereq for a city to be eligible for sacrifice. like >=8 population
I like that Idea, or simply the city that adds to your score the most ... if thats possible to quantify. I would like for it to be a (sacrifice good city or attempt to fight demons) choice, instead of ... should I build this in my wonder city now and THEN raise AC? or completely go against my religion and LOWER the AC as the VEIL.
Even then ... I doubt it could be built before Divine Essence, if that.
Even then ... I doubt it could be built before Divine Essence, if that.
JimMorrison
Philosopher Poet
Don't think you should be able to pick, or you could drop a new Settler and "sacrifice" it the next turn.
I think your best option is to set aside an Engineer when the AC starts to rise. Maybe two, if you can get em.
I don't think cost should be reduced. At best, make the speed increased with Death mana, as well. Or Chaos? Maybe Fire.
WarKirby
Arty person
This is why I suggested a minimum city size.
You can't hurry rituals with great engineers.
Or units, for that matter. It only works on buildings/wonders
JimMorrison
Philosopher Poet
Oh right, always forget that (until it's too late!). Maybe allow you to sacrifice an Archmage to speed production. 
I like the system as it is. It lets you decide in advance whether to fight the AC, or give in, sacrifice a city, and try to bring Hell to the rest of the world-- I especially like how it can set up a very defined good vs. evil battle, with both sides engaged in a tug-of-war with the AC that both actually have a stake in winning (which I felt was missing from regular FFH, since everyone suffers mostly the same from the AC rise (except the Sheiam and Infernals, natch.))
I feel like if it were easier to complete, a player could just build the Pax Diabolis the instant demons would become a problem, and BAM! No more demons. Seems a bit anticlimactic that way, especially since it would mean there's not much point in ever fighting the AC rise, because hey-- you could just sac a city at any time and prevent it from being a problem. So why bother?
In a 20-hammer (relatively large) city with Entropy mana, the Pax would take 50 turns to complete-- a lot, it's true. But not too much for something so incredibly game-changing.
I feel like if it were easier to complete, a player could just build the Pax Diabolis the instant demons would become a problem, and BAM! No more demons. Seems a bit anticlimactic that way, especially since it would mean there's not much point in ever fighting the AC rise, because hey-- you could just sac a city at any time and prevent it from being a problem. So why bother?
In a 20-hammer (relatively large) city with Entropy mana, the Pax would take 50 turns to complete-- a lot, it's true. But not too much for something so incredibly game-changing.
riiiiiight. You do realise only AV nations can build the pact right? Anyways, anyone knows the best way to "win" is OO Lanun. I would rather let the AV have significantly less problems with the demons unless SOMEHOW the "goodly" AV nation is going for a domination victory, and the rising AC is a faustian error. If its not a punishment to the powerful, and only a punishment to the significantly weak, then Poland should always rush empy for Chalid, or run away to an island and go OO. Only way for em not to be totally crushed. (sheiam are a slight exception of course, but Shieam are weakend due to the replacing of the SoW civic and the 1.5 nerf imho)
WarKirby
Arty person
No, it doesn't "let" you. It forces you
As has been pointed out, you have to have already adopted Ashen Veil and researched Infernal Pact. That's two techs off the normal path, and THEN the huge
cost, and THEN sacrificing a city.50 turns for anything is obscene in a normal speed game. I've seen the AC rise from nothing, to demons swarming the world and wrecking everything, in far less time.
And just because the demons stop attacking you, doesn't just make the armageddon problem go away. There's still the colossal unhealthiness from blight to deal with, and when you're AV, hell terrain spreadsto you first, so wave goodbye to those health resources., As well as global damaging at periodic intervals, the Avatar of Wrath stealing half your troops, the apocalypse killing another half, and let's not forget the horsemen's global effects, massive unhappiness, unhealthiness, relations penalties, and lowered city defence,
My main problem is that with a 2000
cost, you're forced to make a choice a LOOOOONG time in advance, before you have any evidence of which way it's going to go. And for those 2000 you could do a lot better by converting to order and spamming 2000 worth of crusaders to fight off the demons.
