Inflation and corporations

[Chigau Jiji]

Totally agree.
My first game coasting to space race victory in 1900s.
I thought.
For fun, set up Sid's Sushi, had/traded for 16 resources,
spread company to all my cities,
thinking the extra food would mean merchant specialists and I'd be rich.
And as the years rolled by,
I couldn't understand why my tech rate kept getting lower and lower,
from 70-80% down to 30-40% and 10-15 turns to research late techs (epic speed).
At that rate I couldn't finish the ship before 2050.
I checked finances
and found inflation of 177% on top of massive maintenance,
which I'd never seen before,
and realised that's where all the money had gone.
A quick change to state property, goodbye Sid, goodbye sushi,
and we were back to 80% research
and a manageable economy.
Put me off corporations completely.

 

[Roland Johansen]

Thanks for your post homan. A picture often tells more than a thousand words.

I've always disliked the fact that inflation is related to the number of turns played in the game. If you absolutely think that inflation is a good balancing tool in this game, then just make inflation increase with the age in the game (ancient, classical, medieval, renaissance, industrial, modern). That way, it isn't lower in a game where everyone happens to research quicker and reach the modern age earlier.

However, the main argument in my original post was that the corporation mechanic can't be truly balanced when the benefits stay the same and the costs triple thanks to inflation. If the corporations are balanced before inflation increases then it means that the corporations become very pricey after the inflation rate increases. If the corporations are balanced at high inflation rates, then it means that they are very cheap at low inflation rates.

 

[homan1983]

Totally agree.
My first game coasting to space race victory in 1900s.
I thought.
For fun, set up Sid's Sushi, had/traded for 16 resources,
spread company to all my cities,
thinking the extra food would mean merchant specialists and I'd be rich.
And as the years rolled by,
I couldn't understand why my tech rate kept getting lower and lower,
from 70-80% down to 30-40% and 10-15 turns to research late techs (epic speed).
At that rate I couldn't finish the ship before 2050.
I checked finances
and found inflation of 177% on top of massive maintenance,
which I'd never seen before,
and realised that's where all the money had gone.
A quick change to state property, goodbye Sid, goodbye sushi,
and we were back to 80% research
and a manageable economy.
Put me off corporations completely.

YES you get it now.
Corporations weren't intended to cost MORE and MORE and MORE, its like as the turns go by, I have to keep dropping the slider...

Some people are saying this is intentional, but its clear that either:

- they have not played or have no idea
- they think that the point of corps is to destroy your enemy by making then run at 100% tax [which makes it more powerful than the current espionage bug on marathon speed +24:sic: for 24 turns, in fact it means the civ effectively loses the game outright]

 

[homan1983]

Thanks for your post homan. A picture often tells more than a thousand words.

I've always disliked the fact that inflation is related to the number of turns played in the game.

It gets even worst, before it used to be 0% inflation at turn 1 and by 2050AD it would be 100%.

My screen shows 2003AD and already I have 220% + inflation.

I think inflation is there because at the start towns are small and cottages are not developed.
However beyond a certain point in the game I think inflation should be capped... simply going higher and higher makes no sence because once a city gets +7 per tile then its never going to get more than that.

 

[Roland Johansen]

It gets even worst, before it used to be 0% inflation at turn 1 and by 2050AD it would be 100%.

My screen shows 2003AD and already I have 220% + inflation.

I think inflation is there because at the start towns are small and cottages are not developed.
However beyond a certain point in the game I think inflation should be capped... simply going higher and higher makes no sence because once a city gets +7 per tile then its never going to get more than that.

Yes, I do understand the reasoning behind the inflation mechanic although I would have liked other types of costs which would be a bit more imaginative and controllable than just a continuously increasing cost factor in the game. The corporations are actually a nice way to introduce late game costs, however the combination with inflation is not working well.

In my previous post I suggested to link inflation to the age in the game (ancient, classical, medieval, renaissance, industrial, modern). That would naturally cap inflation. It would also better link inflation to the availability of certain buildings and civics which improve the economy. However, this should be the average age of the various civilizations to avoid people deliberately not researching age advancing technologies.

The corporations maintenance cost should be independent of inflation or otherwise it is impossible to balance this game mechanic.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Yeah, it seems corporations might work better as a weapon to inflict on your foes than as a tool to build your own empire. I don't really like that, personally. If this is the case, why give them fun and interesting mechanics?
I willing to wait and see if I just don't understand the strategy or if there is some bug.

 

[mrt144]

the more it i think about it the more i hate it. youre essentially forced to either play without corps or use them solely in an advesarial way where you confer huge negative things to the enemy and get a decent positive in return.

was the intent really to make the corp system one of 'hurt them more than they hurt you, or dont even play them?'

it needs to be changed to a system where you can hurt someone but also work with other civs and provide a real reason to run corps and free market.

this is one of the stupidest game balance blunders ive seen ever.

 

[mrt144]

Yeah, it seems corporations might work better as a weapon to inflict on your foes than as a tool to build your own empire. I don't really like that, personally. If this is the case, why give them fun and interesting mechanics?
I willing to wait and see if I just don't understand the strategy or if there is some bug.

that the problem. the most effective and almost feasible way to run corps is to make it as mindless as possible (corp spam) and eliminates any nuance such as resource trading. that sucks.

 

[goonie61]

This has to be a bug in the game because it ruins the whole idea of corporations.

 

[DrJambo]

Well, I'm not yet convinced on this.

Here's the details of my current game:

I'm the HRE
Large map
Epic speed
It's 1956
I've founded Creative Corporations
It's in 7 of my 19 cities
(These were selected based on where I thought I needed the and most)

Here's my finances in terms of costs:
Unit costs 99
Unit supply 3
City Maintenance 92
Civics 101
Inflation 175% x 295 = 512

Of the 92 city maintenance:
Distance to capital 27
No. of cities 36
Colony 1
Corporations 28

I have courthouses in ALL my corporation cities (-75% for HRE) and I'm running Free Market.

I'm able to running 50 % and the and benefits of the corporation, are to me, far outweighing the overall maintenance cost of the corporation.

Granted I probably don't need to, and indeed shouldn't, expand the corporation too much, but isn't that to be expected? The benefits are specific and as I see it, the corporation should only be placed in the most appropriate cities; not every city, and certainly not any city without a courthouse. I also founded the corporation in my most profitable city, one with the specific religion building and all basic economic improvements (alas no Wall Street unfortunately).

So, what's the deal? Seems fine to me - a fine balance which can easily be lost unless you're extremely careful. As to how the AI deals with the fine balance, God only knows.

 

[Roland Johansen]

Again, the point I'm trying to make is not that the costs are too high.

The point that I'm trying to make is that the game element named corporations can't be balanced when the costs varies between 100% and 300% of base cost (say 10 and 30 gold) while the benefits stay the same. Are the benefits balanced versus the 10 gold upkeep, versus 20 gold upkeep or versus 30 gold upkeep? They can never be balanced versus every value between 10 and 30.

Please don't turn this into a discussion on whether they corporations are too expensive or not. There are other threads in the Beyond the Sword subforum for that.

 

[Zoolooman]

Roland - Most importantly, consider maintenance versus income. Generally speaking, while the maintenance for a corporation will rise, the income and benefits from owning a corporation will not. For this reason, spreading a corporation to another civilization inflicts a HUGE economic penalty for which the enemy has no recourse except to swap to Mercantilism or State Property; and all he gains is a comparably small gain in culture, production, or food.

And attempting to increase the productivity of the corporation will sink him further. For every bit of corporate power he squeezes out, he takes a massive hit while you gain a little income.

Ultimately, this balance versus benefit calculation fails even for the human player. As inflation nears 150%, the player is paying far more than he can afford for effects that cost him far less when the corporation was founded. Eventually, every corporation will become a massive loss for the owning Civ and a critical loss for a rival Civ.

To me, this dictates the next course of action--a vast reduction in inflation with a final halt on inflationary growth, or the simple removal of the inflationary system.

 

[Roland Johansen]

Roland - Most importantly, consider maintenance versus income. Generally speaking, while the maintenance for a corporation will rise, the income and benefits from owning a corporation will not. For this reason, spreading a corporation to another civilization inflicts a HUGE economic penalty for which the enemy has no recourse except to swap to Mercantilism or State Property; and all he gains is a comparably small gain in culture, production, or food.

And attempting to increase the productivity of the corporation will sink him further. For every bit of corporate power he squeezes out, he takes a massive hit while you gain a little income.

Ultimately, this balance versus benefit calculation fails even for the human player. As inflation nears 150%, the player is paying far more than he can afford for effects that cost him far less when the corporation was founded. Eventually, every corporation will become a massive loss for the owning Civ and a critical loss for a rival Civ.

To me, this dictates the next course of action--a vast reduction in inflation with a final halt on inflationary growth, or the simple removal of the inflationary system.

I have no doubt whatsoever, they (Firaxis) are going to make some changes, although I'm not exactly sure what they will do. Removal of the inflation system or making corporation costs independent from inflation (just like foreign income is in the F2 screen) is my guess. The only way you can balance the corporation cost versus benefits is when you have any idea what the costs are going to be and that is only possible when the costs are independent from the variable inflation.

My guess is that they will not fully remove inflation, but just make corporation upkeep independent from them. But I hope they will just remove inflation as I dislike the game mechanic.

If anyone who reads this thread wants to remove inflation themselves (while waiting for the first patch), then just ask. It is pretty easy. You don't need massive programming skills or something like that.

 

[homan1983]

the more it i think about it the more i hate it. youre essentially forced to either play without corps or use them solely in an advesarial way where you confer huge negative things to the enemy and get a decent positive in return.

was the intent really to make the corp system one of 'hurt them more than they hurt you, or dont even play them?'

it needs to be changed to a system where you can hurt someone but also work with other civs and provide a real reason to run corps and free market.

this is one of the stupidest game balance blunders ive seen ever.

You hit the nail on the head.
Let me tell you what the biggest problem is, its not that corporations cost too much, I had already planned my costs and benefits.

The problem is that is starts off profitable and worthwhile to pay like 25 for 8

However this ratio gets worst, much much much worst as the game goes on.
So whilst it starts at 8 for 25 (disclaimer: example) which is effectively 3 per hammer or put another way 1.5 per hammer considering banks/market/grocer it gets much worst.
At its start, its very profitable for the owner [offset cost at HQ], and somewhat profitable for the guys allies who host other branches.

By the end of the game, it costs 100 for 10 hammers and also there is no going back [the host nation can't even adopt Merc, he must have SP].

100 per city is just FAAAAAAR too high. How could any city support this? I REALLY don't think that the developers intended it to be like this.

We aren't supposed to use corporations to kill off civs. It would be game breaking and if someone does use it like this at the end-game its pretty much exploitative.
It pretty much kills off any civ right there and there.

They way corporations were meant to be was that, the HQ civ would get lots of benefits, and the civs it spread to would get a lesser benefit. Its job wasn't to offensively kill someone, its job was to make you try and get as many resources as possible to get the most benefit, whilst the opponent civs get the least benefit but you still get the 15 per town u spread to in their cities.

It was supposed to make banks, grocers and markets more useful because corporations would then have to pay 400gold+ to open a branch and remove a competing corporation - it was supposed to be a battle where you would try to spread as much as possible, and if they closed your branch, you would pay another 400gold until one person gives up (as a sort of auction). This would encourage much more for BankMarketGrocer to be used whereas before in warlords I would have them in 1-2 cities at best because my cities would be running at 90-100% science with the exception of the holy shrine city.

Before it made no sense that banks and markets had no purpose in the game when in real life they were sometimes considered more important that universities and definately observatories.

 

[homan1983]

Well, I'm not yet convinced on this.

Here's the details of my current game:

I'm the HRE

I'm gonna stop you right there. My first game was Ethiopia, my second being Dutch.

Guess what, my 3rd is also HRE.
The current broken mechanic means the HRE and Zulu Unique Buildings are far too overpowered.


HRE courthouse gives -75% maintenance. Normal courtehouse is -50% and Zulu get -70%.

The thing you need to understand is that -75% is 100% better than -50%, not 25% better.

with -75% you quarter the maintenance, with -50% you halve it. As such ½ is twice as big as ¼.

To give you concrete values:

in my screenshot I paid 2000 inflation and 700 maintenance cost.

Lets say that the sum contribution of corporation was 2000 per turn (including the corporation cost and its portion of the inflation).

That means that with a courthouse -50% I pay 2000 every turn.
Hence with no courthouse it would have been 4000 every turn.

Now HRE gets -75% which means you only pay 1000 every turn.
Thats 100% more effective than a non-unique building and its far too powerful (although it wasn't designed like this).

With the 1000 per turn I would get using HRE unique building I could run an extra 50-60% science.
So the HRE UB is not 25% better its not 50% better but its 100% more potent, and the effect it has in the game is even more than 100% more powerful.
Also remember that whilst you currently may not have a huge problem, the point I am making is not that the corporation cost is too much but rather that it ends up being multiplied by 3.5 (250%) towards the end of the game.
So every few turns I ended up having to turn the slider down, even though I hadn't done anything in particular during that turn to excuse it.



So as I said, I'm playing my 3rd game as HRE and feeling a little guilty about it

 

[Zoolooman]

making corporation costs independent from inflation (just like foreign income is in the F2 screen) is my guess

I isolated my guess.

 

[Roland Johansen]

Good point about the Rathaus and Ikhanda power in combination with corporations. When I first read about corporations and saw some screenshots of their upkeep, I hadn't expected Firaxis to let courthouses effect them just because of the power it would give to the Ikhanda (I hadn't heard about the Rathaus yet).

I didn't start about it in the first post because it is only partly connected to the main subject and would split any discussion over two subjects. It deserves its own thread. Some unique buildings are just overpowered compared to others. I also consider the Dutch Dike overpowered (and I'm a Dutch guy, so that says something) for other reasons and that might also deserve its own thread. Still, balance between various civilizations isn't as important as balance in a main game feature. Praetorians also aren't balanced, but it isn't a real problem for me.

The easiest solution to the huge power now given to these two unique buildings (Rathaus and Ikhanda) would be to just halve corporate maintenance and let it be immune to the effects of courthouses or other maintenance reducing buildings.

 

[homan1983]

Again, the point I'm trying to make is not that the costs are too high.

The point that I'm trying to make is that the game element named corporations can't be balanced when the costs varies between 100% and 300% of base cost (say 10 and 30 gold) while the benefits stay the same. Are the benefits balanced versus the 10 gold upkeep, versus 20 gold upkeep or versus 30 gold upkeep? They can never be balanced versus every value between 10 and 30.

Please don't turn this into a discussion on whether they corporations are too expensive or not. There are other threads in the Beyond the Sword subforum for that.

yes Yes YES.

When I explain to people my experiences, they keep thinking I want corporations to cost nothing, or that the problem is with me. I don't mind if the corporations were more expensive or if they were cheaper.

The problem is that the same thing which costs 500gold now ends up costing 2000gold later.

As it is, it requires free market, free speech and likely Univ. Suffrage + Emancipation to run a good capitalist economy as well as having a generalling good global diplomacy policy (allows u to get max resources to get the most benefit).
Also this needed long term planning by placing cottages and growing them upto this point as well as keeping a GP that is also required AND finally beelining for the particular Techs. you'll need.

Because if you think about it, even the 35 per turn which I said I don't have a problem with, can't be supported in a farm-heavy workshop-heavy economy.

 

[DrJambo]

Point taken homan1983. I do realise HRE aren't the best example, they just happened to be the first civ I got randomly selected to play with.

Anyway, what would you do to remedy the situation (until Firaxis hopefully have a look at it)?

Decrease inflation rate?

OR

Decrease Corp. maintenance?

 

[homan1983]

well there are 2 points to be made:

1) Why was it 0% - 100% pre BTS and now, in the year 2003AD its already 229%?

2) I don't mind if the cost of corporations is increased or decreased. This simply changes their use from being a different economy type (e.g. free market vs state property) to being a weapon. If that were to be the case then I could adapt and use it more aggressively.
However with military weapons, diplomatic embargos, trade and now espionage, I don't think that the game designers intended yet another way to actively destroy someone.

why would they add espionage and corporations in the same expansion, if they both did the same thing - namely to peacefully destroy others.

I think that corporation costs should be fixed and not affected with inflation. Thereafter the designers can decide how much they should cost and I would have no problem with it.

If they made corporations into a weapon I would be lying if I said I wouldn't be disappointed, but then at least I would know what Im dealing with - as it is, in the mid game corporations are great tools that allow you to compete and even surpass the economies of state properties with proper resource trading and economic infrastructure (cottages) but then suddenly as the turns go by, slowly but surely they start to cripple their host nation. The same aspect of the game with no real input from the player is doing the exact opposite of what it had 100 turns ago.

This is like espionage in turn 150 making the target city get +12 unahppiness, but the same mission in turn 200 gives +5 happy.

Either way however, I want corporations to be less impacted by inflation and have its effects remain stable regardless of time so that I know what I'm dealing with.

I'm prolly more a Marxist at heart anyway, the only reason I went Free Market and cottage eco. was that I found the economy much more fun and exciting, bringing aspects of economy, displomacy, UN, colony [yes they help BIGTIME by allowing your corps to spread with domestic prices AND giving you the resources you need] and espionage (influence civi - choose free market dammit you )