Inflation and corporations

[Zoolooman]

Roland - I'm flipping through the XML files and I've become confused. How on Earth are these values calculating out to these huge inflation numbers?

What do I need to change to switch inflation back to Warlords levels? Or to turn them off altogether?

 

[Roland Johansen]

Roland - I'm flipping through the XML files and I've become confused. How on Earth are these values calculating out to these huge inflation numbers?

What do I need to change to switch inflation back to Warlords levels? Or to turn them off altogether?

It's a starting to be a bit late here in the Netherlands, so I'll keep it short. As you're actually flipping through xml-files, I guess you're at least vaguely familiar with modding.

The inflation figures are stored in the file ...\Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword\Assets\XML\GameInfo\CIV4GameSpeedInfo.xml and are configured separately for every game speed. The variable iInflationOffset determines how many turns it takes for inflation to start increasing. The variable iInflationPercent determines how many hundreds of percent points inflation increases per game turn.

So for instance at normal speed, you see that iInflationOffset has a value of -120 meaning that inflation starts to increase after 120 turns. You can see that iInflationPercent is 45, meaning that inflation increases by 0.45% per game turn.
For your reference: there are 330 turns at quick speed, 500 turns at normal speed, 750 at epic speed and 1500 at marathon speed.

It's very easy to adjust the inflation ratio with these two parameters. To make inflation equal to 0% throughout the game, you could set iInflationPercent to 0 at your favourite game speed setting. I don't know how to give a cap to inflation. That is probably possible, but I guess you'd need to do more than modifying some xml files to achieve that.

 

[mrt144]

1- change inflation to be Cost*(1+rate)^turn in game and then scaled to game speed
2- seperate inflation calculations from corp maitenance so that Cost*(turn*rate)+Cost-Corporations
3- Free market confers -50% costs
4- Free market confers -50% to ones you own and -25% to ones owned by others in your territory
5-Adjust maintenance for resource consumption to get smaller as the resource amount increases
6- Own Executives in city prevent decrease chances foriegn executive from setting up a corp

These are all things that don't require huge adjustments and might go some way to makign corps more competitive and less exploitable.

1 - this benefits the free market by reducing overall costs and not double counting them
1a- this also means that those with less costs will pay less regardless

2- this benefits solely corporations

3- makes the civic stronger for the inteneded purpose it has
3a- Must have a cap on max reduction

4- Makes civic stronger but also encourages outward growth and corporate invasions
4a- same as 3a

5- Can actually get to a point where production from resources outpaces costs
5a- makes having foreign corps in your city not as bad

6a- free market/enviro benefit for protection
6b- used in case of UN vote for enviro

I want these options on the table!

 

[DrJambo]

It's in the CivIVGameSpeedInfo xml file.

In Warlords inflation rises by the following %:
Normal speed 30 %
Epic speed 20 %
Marathon speed 10 %

In BtS inflation rises by the following %:
Normal speed 45 %
Epic speed 30 %
Marathon speed 15 %

They're offset by the same amount in Warlords and BtS:
Marathon -200
Epic -160
Normal -120

If I recall correctly, I think this is how many turns it takes to kick in...

Bear in mind that BtS has comparatively more turns than Warlords, hence the explosion of inflation towards the end.

Good luck.

 

[homan1983]

So for instance at normal speed, you see that iInflationOffset has a value of -120 meaning that inflation starts to increase after 120 turns. You can see that iInflationPercent is 45, meaning that inflation increases by 0.45% per game turn.
For your reference: there are 330 turns at quick speed, 500 turns at normal speed, 750 at epic speed and 1500 at marathon speed.

It's very easy to adjust the inflation ratio with these two parameters. To make inflation equal to 0% throughout the game, you could set iInflationPercent to 0 at your favourite game speed setting. I don't know how to give a cap to inflation. That is probably possible, but I guess you'd need to do more than modifying some xml files to achieve that.

But this seems somewhat wrong. The Dutch screenshot showed a "normal speed" game.
According you your numbers, then the max inflation at the year 2050AD should be: (500-120)*.45 = 171%.

But we already know that in the year 2003AD I'm already getting 220% inflation.

I have a question: does you xml values take into account that in BTS the number of turns for all speeds have gone up?
(if you check http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=222075#NewFeat you will notice that the first point under "key new features" is that and I quote: 'More turns have been added to the game.' )

 

[Zoolooman]

What is the actual turn count?

Edit: I checked them by hand. Roland had the counts right.

 

[DrJambo]

But this seems somewhat wrong. The Dutch screenshot showed a "normal speed" game.
According you your numbers, then the max inflation at the year 2050AD should be: (500-120)*.45 = 171%.

But we already know that in the year 2003AD I'm already getting 220% inflation.

I have a question: does you xml values take into account that in BTS the number of turns for all speeds have gone up?
(if you check http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=222075#NewFeat you will notice that the first point under "key new features" is that and I quote: 'More turns have been added to the game.' )

I not sure that inflation offset value works as we think. I get the impression all inflation rates will max out at 225%. I've reached 1964 (Epic speed) and inflation's already at 185%.

 

[mrt144]

solutions
obviously this is a new resource consumption cost idea.
initial cost before resource consumption = 10
cost per resource = 2

parameters
6 resources consumed
2 corps per city
10 cities
HQ income = 300
total cost=440
game year = 350
other maintenance = 125 (civic upkeep, units)
foreign expenses = 100

((565*(350*.0045)+565)-300+100 = 1254
((565(1+.0010)^350)-300+100 = 601 this is with compound inflation
((440+(125*.0045*350)-300+100 = 436 this is with corp costs not calculated

now assuming state property
corp costs = 0
upkeep = 250
foreign= 100

250(350*.0045)+250+100= 743 current
250(1+.0010)^350+100=454 compound inflation
250(350*.0045)+250+100= 743 no corp costs counted

this might show that a compound inflation rate is better because with corps you pay more than normal and without them you pay less, but dont get the benefits

 

[homan1983]

I not sure that inflation offset value works as we think. I get the impression all inflation rates will max out at 225%. I've reached 1964 (Epic speed) and inflation's already at 185%.

Yea, I also re-read the Original Post and it seems he said that he is using 3.02 patch xmls.

I hadn't gotten round to patching it (been busy playing and real life ) but perhaps one of the changes in this patch was to lower the inflation.

Although its more likely that you're right about us not understanding the terms used in the xml since yo also get 185% and I'm assuming you have the latest patch?

 

[wayne07]

The problem on corporation for me is that it forces me to use state property to compete late game.

In vanilla/warlords, people can claim that state property is the most useful civic but yet i find it enjoyable to use environmentalism/free market to exploit health/trade routes to compete on research.

There is no solution other than state property in BTS at late game in order to compete effectively if you do not monopolise the corporations.

That to me is game breaking.

Corporation shouldn't be free of cost. I fully agree that there must be cost attached to the benefits. But the way the present game is structured, it is useless because it prevents me from running an economy that can compete UNLESS i run state property.

I see the point of inflation. I don't think it is the % that is damaging since everyone gets the same inflation rate in the game.

Its the magnitude of corporation game dynamics that kills the game for me. The base cost of foreign corps/domestic corps is too high and there are no other counters to it beside state property.

Make corporation maintenance cost lower for balance things up.

 

[homan1983]

There is no solution other than state property in BTS at late game in order to compete effectively if you do not monopolise the corporations.

And who on earth would want to waste 7 good Great People just so they can monopolize corporations? What an absolute waste. I'd rather use them to get 2-3 GAs which is spretty damn good esp. with the wonder the gives +50% duration.

I have faith that it'll be fixed though - I dont think this is intended.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I think it really is a simple fact of
1. Inflation amount
+
2. Corporate Maintenance amount

being too much

If inflation was scaled back to a 0-100% scale (instead of the 0-225% that it seems to be because the base levels weren't adjusted
AND
Corporation maintenance was decreased slightly

it might be managable... first of all because with 0-100 the variation for when corporations are around would be decreased (to probably 25% to 75%) for a 1.25-1.75 or say 10 v. 14 cost for a corporation (much better than a 10 v 20)
Combine that with a decrease in cost, and it would be reasonable.

looking at the benefits, I'd imagine they should be roughly similar to Universal Suffrage (for the Food/Hammers one) so ~3 gold for 1 hammer (or Food)... now because of Courthouses, that could be increased to 6m, and because of better Inflation dropped to maybe 4m or 5m per resource.

Alternative 2 is the base corporate cost+ much smaller cost per amount of production. In that case the Base cost should be about equal to the 5 raw gold=10 or 15 Gold gained from the corp (15m Courthouse+max Inflation) and perhaps 2m per resource (Civilized Jewelers is interesting because its output is partially Gold, so it should probably be good since 1 raw gold->2 Gold which should just hold off against Inflation.)
since
1 Food->3 Gold (so 2.25 from Mills) with Merchants+gold Boosters
1 Hammer-> 2 Gold (so 2 from Mills) with Wealth+production boosters
that would make it always worthwhile to get more resources

so assuming 33% Inflation+Courthouses+Free Market for foreign Mining Co
or 60% Inflation+Courthouses+Environmentalism
Hammer (treasury cost1:2)
1 (8:17)
2 (9:19) *US with best condition [assuming Factory+Power]
3 (10:21)
4 (11:23) *US with worst condition [assuming Factory+Power]
5 (12:25)
6 (13:27)
etc. if that is too easy perhaps 4 m per resource so
Hammer/resources (treasury cost1:2)
1 (9:19)
2 (11:23)*better than US for best condition
3 (13:27)
4 (15:31)
5 (17:35)
6 (19:39)
7 (21:43)
8 (23:47) * better than US for poor condition

That would make it always usefull to spread your own corp to yourself even under Mercantilism (15 Wall Street Gold=15 Courthouse Maintenance at 100% Inflation)
Free Market would allow you to reasonably benefit from foreign corps if you had enough resources (and would make your own corps even better money makers)

I'd probably keep Inflation tied to turn, but just 0-100% (with a cap at the end for those people who want to keep playing past the time limit.)

It would still give the Rathaus/Ihanda a strong bonus (perhaps they can be changed to include a +X% to Corporation Maintenance in this City as needed.) but that is less major than a game mechanic level problem.

 

[Mîtiu Ioan]

Anyway - it's incredible how such a BIG problem passed through testing phase.

Regards all

 

[Roland Johansen]

I set up a test mod to find out what went wrong with the inflation percentage calculation that I did, but I couldn't find the problem. Every test I did followed the formula that I used. There is another percentage in the CIV4HandicapInfo.xml file which lowers inflation at lower difficulty levels (Prince and lower), I didn't mention that in my first post. But people in this thread say that they are experiencing higher inflation rates than the ones that the formula predicts, so that is strange.

The formula I used always fit all of my vanilla and warlords games and also fits my tests. My tests were limited to low levels of inflation as I didn't want to test for hours of clicking next turn. So the formula must have changed in a way that only shows up later in the game or something went wrong (bug) with the inflation percentage calculation in some games.

I've already changed the way inflation works in my game, so I don't have a game in an advanced state to see the higher than predicted inflation rates.

All of this of course doesn't change the fact that inflation and corporations shouldn't influence each other. If inflation is higher than what I said in the first post, then it only makes it harder to balance the profitability of corporations versus the varying inflation percentages during a game.

 

[player1 fanatic]

Note that there are more turns in BtS game, then in warlords or vanilla. I think 500.

 

[Roland Johansen]

Note that there are more turns in BtS game, then in warlords or vanilla. I think 500.

That effect has been taken into account.

 

[Mîtiu Ioan]

All of this of course doesn't change the fact that inflation and corporations shouldn't influence each other.

Well - in "real life" in fact State Property generate a much more and constant inflation than corporations & Free Market ...

But this is another aspect - of course.

Regards

 

[Caldazar]

As long as corporations can act like actual weapons, the model is always going to be flawed. That's not an opinion, but a fact. It's not suppose to be cheap, but obviously profitable or why would I even bother investing all that money to begin with? And the answer to that question is NOT to cripple the enemy, that's such an obvious exploit, forcing players to change to State Property.

I like some of the solutions being presented here here, especially the ones promoting Free Market. I want diversity!!

 

[Lars_Domus]

I did some experimenting yesterday, and you've swayed me on the inflation part. In Warlords the formula checks out every time, but in BtS it's completely out of whack:

(Turn - Offset) * InflationPercent * "Difficulty modifier"

Two examples:
In turn 337 of a Normal speed Warlords game on Noble I should have
(337 - 120) * 0,30 * 0,9 = 58,59 (rounded down) % inflation - and this checks out if I load an old Warlords save with these conditions.

In turn 339 of a Normal speed BtS game on Noble I should have
(339 - 120) * 0,45 * 0,9 = 88,69 (rounded down) % inflation, but I actually have 125%!!

Now fast forward to when things really start getting insane:
In turn 433 I should have had, according to the formula, 126% inflation, but in fact I have 203! And in turn 499 it has gone all the way up to a whooping 266%!!

I present to you that Firaxis has either intentionally changed the formula that calculates inflation rate or, most likely, there is a bug that causes a fault in the calculation.

I think this inflation issue needs a proper thread all of its own in this forum, to bring attention to it. The Corporations "issue" is but a question of balance which may or may not need addressing, and I'm not taking a stand on the matter until I've played more BtS games.

 

[Roland Johansen]

I did some experimenting yesterday, and you've swayed me on the inflation part. In Warlords the formula checks out every time, but in BtS it's completely out of whack:

(Turn - Offset) * InflationPercent * "Difficulty modifier"

Two examples:
In turn 337 of a Normal speed Warlords game on Noble I should have
(337 - 120) * 0,30 * 0,9 = 58,59 (rounded down) % inflation - and this checks out if I load an old Warlords save with these conditions.

In turn 339 of a Normal speed BtS game on Noble I should have
(339 - 120) * 0,45 * 0,9 = 88,69 (rounded down) % inflation, but I actually have 125%!!

Now fast forward to when things really start getting insane:
In turn 433 I should have had, according to the formula, 126% inflation, but in fact I have 203! And in turn 499 it has gone all the way up to a whooping 266%!!

I present to you that Firaxis has either intentionally changed the formula that calculates inflation rate or, most likely, there is a bug that causes a fault in the calculation.

I think this inflation issue needs a proper thread all of its own in this forum, to bring attention to it. The Corporations "issue" is but a question of balance which may or may not need addressing, and I'm not taking a stand on the matter until I've played more BtS games.

Yes, I noticed that the formula for inflation must have changed. It starts with the normal rise in inflation according to the formula, but at some time, the rate increases. With enough figures (turn number vs inflation rate), the formula can be derived. It is easier when the difficulty level modifier is not a factor.

It seems to be close to a doubling of the inflation rate increase after 240 turns. Close, but not exact. Someone who could take a look at the new inflation formula in the code could also be helpful.