Initial look at Nexus, 3D Unit Art and reskinning

[Deliverator]

It is a real shame they seem to have locked down the 3D art so much.

In Civ 4, even those without any 3D modelling skills could copy an existing unit and reskin it to make a new graphic. Even if Firaxis do give modders a way of cloning an existing 3D art asset there's no way it's going to be as simple and straight-forward as Civ 5.

It's going too far to say that Firaxis don't want people creating new unit models, etc. That seems to be exactly what the Asset Import and FBX support in Nexus is there for. The trouble is without being able to look at how existing units or leaderheads are made it will be next to impossible to make one yourself.

I'm not sure that Firaxis have thought things through properly. Fall from Heaven II, was by far the most popular and successful mod for Civ 4. Almost all the units created by seZereth and others used vanilla animations. Unless Firaxis provide some method for modders to rig user created meshes to existing vanilla unit skeletons and animations, then you can pretty much wave goodbye to the possibility of total conversion mods for Civ5.

I just don't see how Firaxis can hope to achieve the longevity and diversity of Civ 4 mods with Civ 5 if they keep all their models, animations and some of the textures behind a proprietary compression matrix. Being able to import homemade stuff via Nexus is not enough. We need the freedom to use, clone and edit the existing 3D art assets as we wish. That's what we had with Civ 4 so there's no excuse really. Civ 5 is an "unprecedented" step backwards in terms of graphics modding.

If they've made this decision for business reasons then it's a pretty dumb one IMO.

 

[Deliverator]

I agree with santino6 - I remember one of the interviews where Shafer said that they don't know if they'll release plugins for making 3dgraphics. And if they'll release it it would be near impossible to create own leader due to complexity of graphics (shaders, animations, etc.).

This is a daft point by Shafer. You shouldn't underestimate what modders are capable of.

This argument certainly doesn't stack up with the unit models. I haven't been able to count the polygons but they don't look THAT much more complex than Civ 4 models. Certainly looking at the Warrior models they don't look significantly better than the Civ 4 ones - they seem to have mostly mulitplied the number of models in a unit rather than the complexity of the models - at least as far as the human units go.

 

[asioasioasio]

YUeah he underestimates modders - many are tallented and skilled graphic designers - and with some help from Firaxis probably sooner or later there would be breakethrough.

Locking so much graphic editing is really step back - when even reskining is tough to do since new one replace texture of orginal unit.

And it's said that we can't edit graphics done by Firaxis - every model of unit in civ4 I did was more or less based on existing model (animation and sometime also mesh).

Iirc we had to wait for export plugins in civ4. Maybe it would be the same situation with civ5. They didn't released import plugins tough, but they were available from official site of nifengine.

Right now it isn't most modable game - It's not easy to mod when many things is locked.

 

[Deliverator]

Iirc we had to wait for export plugins in civ4. Maybe it would be the same situation with civ5. They didn't released import plugins tough, but they were available from official site of nifengine.

Civ 4 was released in October 2005. Firaxis provided plugins to export models from Max to NIF format around February 2006. Nifskope and the import/export plugins for Max/Blender were all done by the Niftools guys not Firaxis.

So, in fact, Firaxis never provided modders with a way to import and adapt the Civ4 assets. That was an independent effort. We might need some similar clever people to get together to try and crack the Firaxis gr2 and dds encoding and make some tools and scripts that we can use to mod the existing assets. This might not even be feasible though. At least with the NIF format it had been around a while before Civ 4 came out. People could figure out the file format since Firaxis had not taken a standard format and wrapped it in proprietary encryption.

 

[Kyoss]

Deliverator i totally understand your point of view,
but i wouldnt see it so negative for now.

It kind of makes sense that most models are protected in one or the other way,
if models would be freely available in the game directory, people couldnt only use them to mod this game, but create whole new ones with them.

Also its true that Firaxis obviously wants to make cash by selling additional addons in the future. Lets hope some tutorial will come up, that explains how to make own units, or alternatively several of the used models will be released in an uprotected format.

If that never happens... well i'd be pissed myself.

 

[Deliverator]

Yes, it's early days so I shouldn't be too negative. We'll just have to be patient and see what happens.

 

[GeoModder]

Thanks for explaining how to get the FPK script running, Deliverator.
Would never had thought of using regedit to set the right path. Even if I knew the right path.
Extracting as I type.

 

[Deliverator]

Deliverator, I'd be very interested to see you change the terrain, something simple like green grassland to red grassland. Just so that I know it's possible.

Making a mod to do that is quite straight-forward. I've attached a zip file containing a demo mod - you can unzip to your My Games/Sid's Meier's Civilization 5/MODS if you want to test it.

Adding new terrain types however doesn't look as straight-forward. There must be an association between the rows in terraindef.csv and CIV5Terrains.xml but it's not obvious. Possibly it's in the SDK.

At least it is possible for someone to make a mod that recolours the base terrain.

 

[siam]

Good job Deliverator, So far, This thread is the most useful info for all graphic modders. I will waiting for your updates.

 

[MerakSpielman]

At least it is possible for someone to make a mod that recolours the base terrain.

Well done! This will be good for fantasy modders.

 

[Dict4t0rCiv]

Seems to me, locking the art assets down is a really bad move by Firaxis. Maybe they'll sell more dlc/expansions because modders can't make new units, leaders, etc. They'll lose sales in the long run though if great mods like ffh aren't possible with Civ V. The mod browser makes mods more accessible and easier to install for people so Firaxis probably doesn't want to have to compete with it at least until after they've released their dlc/expansions. Still a bad move though imo, people will just go back to Civ 4.

 

[MerakSpielman]

I have great faith in the modding community. Somebody will crack into it eventually.

 

[Wirapuru]

In Civ 4, even those without any 3D modelling skills could copy an existing unit and reskin it to make a new graphic. Even if Firaxis do give modders a way of cloning an existing 3D art asset there's no way it's going to be as simple and straight-forward as Civ 5.

It's going too far to say that Firaxis don't want people creating new unit models, etc. That seems to be exactly what the Asset Import and FBX support in Nexus is there for. The trouble is without being able to look at how existing units or leaderheads are made it will be next to impossible to make one yourself.

I agree, they wouldn't release Nexus in first place if they don't want modded 3d ingame, but this matter is becoming rather intriguing at the point it's at IMO.

On one side there's this opinion where Firaxis/Shafer understimate modders, maybe they're only 'decoying'? (I don't think so - high stakes on a massive community of modders and players that rely on those).

At the other side it would be, and I believe in this one, lack of commercial strategy by Firaxis/2K when involving with Steam and this new f***ing DLC-driven game world. I would bet that Firaxis wanted to make the most moddable game ever, releasing tools as beta as they are but then updating as the time goes on. But everything changed when Steam worked its strings, the rest you know - no more blabbing from me =]

BUT, I'm still not pessimist as some has been showing. I know it'll be a lot of work but as soon as we get ONE SINGLE MODEL exported by Nexus, as simple as it should be, ingame - the gate will be open.

Starting from that we'll have to spend lots of work and efforts to create all the tweaks and hacks on top of that devil gr2 to discover how everything is made, and there's people out there (me included =]) who loves to trial-and-error (as soon they don't count 1000+ tries eh..) and reverse things in.

Well, that's how I am feeling now, but we don't have any response from Firaxis yet, just speculating.

From what I have read from other gaming mod forums, it's not going to happen. Granny 3d is a very expensive package which us modders wont be buying. Lots of other games use that format and I even tried using there tools with no luck.

Even if we bought Granny it wouldn't matter. I don't know how this license works but Firaxis 'made' its own gr2 format, and maybe it can release tools to edit them. No 'vanilla' plugins, viewers, decoders will work with those, *only* Firaxis ones (or custom-hacked ones).


EDIT: apart the polemic discussion great thread Deliverator!

 

[Deliverator]

Even if we bought Granny it wouldn't matter. I don't know how this license works but Firaxis 'made' its own gr2 format, and maybe it can release tools to edit them. No 'vanilla' plugins, viewers, decoders will work with those, *only* Firaxis ones (or custom-hacked ones).

This is an interesting thread discussing Silent Hunter 5 and its version of the GR2 format. They even got an official response from RAD games owners of the Granny format when enquiring about buying Granny:

We'd probably wouldn't license a group of people, since there are no legal protections or anything (I mean, who would even sign the contract? <grin>). So, if you wanted to do this, you'd have to start an official company before we could start talking about a license

In any case, though, I believe Ubisoft used a customized version of Granny in Silent Hunter, so I don't think a Granny license would help - that, is you'd still need a bunch of custom code from Ubisoft.

Really, the right way for this to happen is for Ubisoft to get a source license for our exporter, and then modify it to write out Silent Hunter data files specifically...

So, I presume a similar situation exists with Civ 5. Firaxis have used a customized/compressed version of Granny and unless they release something that will turn their version of the gr2 files into something we can work with then we may be stuck.

Another idea, I noticed that Viewer.exe is a separate executable in the Nexus folder. It doesn't start up unless Nexus is running. I wonder if it is possible to attach one of these 3D ripper programs to that executable and grab the exist units that way...

the polemic discussion

Yeah, I probably helped start that... Probably just the frustration of going from Civ 4 where pretty much anything is possible to Civ 5 where not much can be done yet.

We need to be patient at this stage and give Firaxis a chance. For Civ 4, they did produce the guide "Getting your units in Civilization IV: A guide for anyone with Max and determination" so hopefully there'll be something similar again.

 

[Ekmek]

There is no way to edit the mesh gr2 files in the mod tools as far as I can see.

When I created a mod with a copy of the warrior unit it still picks up the warrior_diff.dds from the resource/DX9 folder rather than anything I put locally in the mod. I tried editing the fxsxml file to point to my new texture but that had no effect either.

The unpacked gr2 files crash Granny Viewer when you try and open them, so they appear to be non-standard. I think that modding existing 3D assets is probably at a dead-end until Firaxis providing some additional tools or scripts for working with their version of the gr2 format.

have you tried opening the fxsxml file in a text editor and change the filename? to a different skin name?

So, I presume a similar situation exists with Civ 5. Firaxis have used a customized/compressed version of Granny and unless they release something that will turn their version of the gr2 files into something we can work with then we may be stuck.
QUOTE]

And for the record - Firaxis did use a propriatary Granny format. But the plan is for Nexus to convert FBX files to that prioprietary gr2 format. However, currently Nexus isnt working as planned. I think the plan is to protect firaxis generated artcontent but allow modders the ability to add. that way they can do DLCs but still add modifications - if you did it the civ4 way you couldnt do DLCs everything would be open.

I assume a patching effort is in the works but things are probably dedicated elsewhere.

 

[Wirapuru]

Ops, I guess I say it the wrong way, I meant:

apart (all I said about) the polemic discussion, (I forgot to mention this is a) great thread Deliverator!

Eh, sorry, sometimes I'm beaten by my English..

//---

It's good to know that this issue has been worked in another modding communities. AFAIK neither SILENT HUNTER is a game with a sight on modding nor UBISOFT ever taken that path explicitly, so I'm very optimistic we won't be abandonned on this like the modders there were.

Another game I saw with 'gr2 anti-mod syndrome' was AoE3, people had difficulties as well, but I think there they didn't have problms with modified gr2 formats. I'll research a bit to confirm that.

Another idea, I noticed that Viewer.exe is a separate executable in the Nexus folder. It doesn't start up unless Nexus is running. I wonder if it is possible to attach one of these 3D ripper programs to that executable and grab the exist units that way...

Nice catch! I'll mess with Process Monitor and see what we can get from it, obviously we won't find how they do it internly, but maybe some information from its hooks.

 

[Deliverator]

have you tried opening the fxsxml file in a text editor and change the filename? to a different skin name?

Yes, I've tried that. I couldn't make that work in a test mod, presumably because the texture filenames are referenced from within the GR2 file. Perhaps someone else can try and confirm this.

I think the plan is to protect firaxis generated artcontent but allow modders the ability to add. that way they can do DLCs but still add modifications - if you did it the civ4 way you couldnt do DLCs everything would be open.

It's sad, but that logic does makes sense. If there was a way to get the existing art out then the Babylonians could be released as a free mod.

 

[Wirapuru]

But the plan is for Nexus to convert FBX files to that prioprietary gr2 format. However, currently Nexus isnt working as planned. I think the plan is to protect firaxis generated artcontent but allow modders the ability to add. that way they can do DLCs but still add modifications - if you did it the civ4 way you couldnt do DLCs everything would be open.

So you think that they would never release plugins to import these gr2 models in 3rd-party 3d software?

I guess it's kinda acceptable, seeing it from a commercial perspective. If we could import/clone and modify they know what (you, specifically) we could create with that on hands. When DLCs weren't a matter there wasn't anything to prevent top-quality modded art going in, it just added more value to the game - great - but now it'll compete with DLCs. If you see this way it can even be considered that they are giving away all the work their artists had so you can create something similar/better/worse with less effort, to compete with their own DLC products.

I guess the right (ethic even?) middle point to it it's doing like the way you said, they give us the 'road', but not the 'highways'. We still can do it, but we'll have to figure it out. Of course, when Nexus allows exported models ingame

 

[SamBC]

It's sad, but that logic does makes sense. If there was a way to get the existing art out then the Babylonians could be released as a free mod.

I'm not so sure. For starters, there's a big difference between a Mod and DLC, the biggest being that any game with a mod loaded has a big flag on it saying "MODDED GAME", they don't count for achievements, can't currently be used for multiplayer, and are clearly not meant to feel like 'proper' games.

Then there's the fact that they would find out that people were ripping off the DLC and breaching copyright, and they would get it off the hub pretty damn sharp, and probably go after people doing it out-of-band. Re-using it to give a different result (using reskinned version of the same graphics) is a completely different kettle-of-fish from the business perspective.

 

[Wirapuru]

I'm not so sure. For starters, there's a big difference between a Mod and DLC, the biggest being that any game with a mod loaded has a big flag on it saying "MODDED GAME", they don't count for achievements, can't currently be used for multiplayer, and are clearly not meant to feel like 'proper' games.

Then there's the fact that they would find out that people were ripping off the DLC and breaching copyright, and they would get it off the hub pretty damn sharp, and probably go after people doing it out-of-band. Re-using it to give a different result (using reskinned version of the same graphics) is a completely different kettle-of-fish from the business perspective.

Trying to keep it short (since it's deviating from our main objective here) this kind of action didn't exist before DLCs. Yes there were expansion packs before but I think that's for another discussion. But from what you said I think you are not much fan of mods, neither you followed mod communities in depth, much less Firaxis statements about modability on Civ5 - put as one of the main features of the game.

Generally you can say what you said about the business perspective of mods on commercial games but in Civ 5 apparently they are welcomed and will be treated by another point of view.