Initial Rush - Evaluation of Early Game Wars

[michmbk]

Actually although marathon takes away some of the *relative* power of keshiks to other units, it still makes using them easier. I had no trouble capping that entire continent on emperor. The AI could produce very few extra units at war so I just ran around taking all the easy cities and then capitulation, and since this was happening so fast culture couldn't even put me in revolt trouble yet...

Totally agree - I was thinking of it on a relative basis. Any unit is easier to use on marathon with the unit discount and the inability of the AI to war successfully compared to the human. You would have been able to do something almost as devastating as your save on normal or epic, but any 1 movement unit couldn't possibly replicate that effect on normal or epic, it'd take too long.

 

[cardgame]

Immortals and the Earth18Civs map make for a nice early rush. Playing as Persia (ofc) on Prince I managed to wipe out the Arabs, the Egyptians, and the Indians. Maybe babylonians too... if they were on there? I don't remember.

 

[kivanc]

Then don't try and pass off your comments as some sort of objective analysis. They're nothing of the sort.

Well, they were not all subjective. but part of my post 9 about UUs were subjective. that was partly because I underrated some UUs so as to highlight that they were not essential for the game, and partly because that i didn't realize the power of some UUs honestly. impi is one of them. i think a 2 move land unit can make a good synergy with Shaka.

Immortals and the Earth18Civs map make for a nice early rush. Playing as Persia (ofc) on Prince I managed to wipe out the Arabs, the Egyptians, and the Indians. Maybe babylonians too... if they were on there? I don't remember.

Earth map is really full of fun mostly because of realistic mood of the map, I suppose. When I first moved to monarch, I had my earliest win with Cyrus.

City Raider-Combat Issue:
I couldn't comment about this CR-C issue and I want to do it now.
As I said earlier, I read this forum while i am at work and that's why i cannot motivate totally and try not to write long posts (sometimes i loose myself and do it)
now i have found free time and i am free to write.

Regarding CR vs C... this might be a good time to point out that Combat is always applied to the strength of the unit itself, while CR is applied as a negative percentage to the defender. Thus, Willem is quite correct that there are many instances where a 10% Combat bonus is numerically better than a 25% CR bonus.

It's same as you say. One of them supports the base strength level while the other counts as minus towards the total defense of the enemy.
So as we are talking mostly about early rushes here, as it mostly figures the destiny of the game, i suppose CR is better than combat1 for early rushes, as the city defenses aren't mostly above that 120%.
Still, I believe promoting all units as CR is not good. Because later as the enemy city defenses will get strong, CR will loose power.
But still promoting all early era axes as CR3 is also not a problem. Because you generally loose most of them one by one
As i make war with many AIs (nearly all wars start with my declare), i looxe most early era units. i just try to save some high level units, let's say units highelr than level4. as level3 is always easy to achieve and train again, loosing a level3 unit is not a big problem.
so you just promote early units with CR3 and later units as C3.
And by the way, another thing to remember is that i generally have at least a few level5 units. so they generally have CR3 Combat2.
For later ages of course a Combat4+march or combat5 unit is better as level5.

@TMIT
It wasn't till around second half of 2009 that this combat odds thing between combat and CR was really made apparent by a poster in these forums.

ıs it so? I didn't know people knew the difference until then. I thought it was clear. Well, I don't remember about civ4 much as i've been playing bts for a long time. Was it not similar in civ4?
And by the way, I do believe that BTS engine calculates the odds as nearly true except the effect of first strikes which is hard to formulate directly.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

So as we are talking mostly about early rushes here, as it mostly figures the destiny of the game, i suppose CR is better than combat1 for early rushes, as the city defenses aren't mostly above that 120%.

What are you talking about? You can't ignore reality forever.

- Archer fortified behind a wall: 125% defense bonus BEFORE any promotion.
- Fortified Protective archer + CG II (3xp) and 1 border pop: 140% defenses
- Hill city with fortified archer: always 125%. City defenses or promotions add more
- Any CG I archer with a 2nd border pop

I'd go a little easier on you if I didn't point this out in this thread already.

So vs archers combat will frequently defeat CR in efficiency for an early rush. Now let's move onto some other scenarios:

- praetorian vs axe in city ---> If the city has at least 50% defenses and the axe is fortified, combat wins. You might want combat on them outside of cities anyway too.
- MOUNTED VS SPEARS ----> Remember this? Yes? How you were saying that mounted has a disadvantage because it can't take CR? A mounted unit will always face >120% defensive bonuses against a spear in a city except under the most extreme, culture-less circumstances where it hasn't fortified yet. Once again, almost every archer unit will have enough % too. The only things you'd want CR on mounted against are the least common defenders against them. Also, mounted is supposed to use its mobility to strike less garrisoned areas, which means generally the tougher stuff is fought in the field if it must be fought, and skews the typical defender towards archers even more (which was done in the game you've ignored so far).
- Pretty much any melee vs xbows will also struggle to do a lot more with CR than combat.

Now, the 120% doesn't always hold true. As others have said, other factors change the break-even point. However, the fact remains that in a lot of cases, combat I > CR I for an early rush. When you consider that combat is a lot more dynamic in that it functions in *all* situations, it looks even less damaging to take it.

CR has its place in the early rush, but is actually stronger once you can break culture defenses somehow as once those are stripped the chances of the combat I break-even are far lower.

ıs it so? I didn't know people knew the difference until then. I thought it was clear. Well, I don't remember about civ4 much as i've been playing bts for a long time. Was it not similar in civ4?
And by the way, I do believe that BTS engine calculates the odds as nearly true except the effect of first strikes which is hard to formulate directly.

You keep saying you know and then keep making it look an awful lot like you don't.

Combat odds have accurately displayed the effects of 1st strikes for some time now...and the effects are to simply null a lost combat round if it was a first strike round. The game can handle that math just fine...even the first strike chances.

 

[Wodan]

You might want combat on them outside of cities anyway too.

That was understatement (sarcasm), right?

 

[kivanc]

- Archer fortified behind a wall: 125% defense bonus BEFORE any promotion.
- Fortified Protective archer + CG II (3xp) and 1 border pop: 140% defenses
- Hill city with fortified archer: always 125%. City defenses or promotions add more
- Any CG I archer with a 2nd border pop
...

about defense%; during my early rushes none of the enemy cities have city walls and similarly very few are on hills. even during mid-early rushes few enemy cities have walls. and most of the time, the enemy city culture is 40% at most.
but sure archer defense still makes a high percentage.but who cares, some of my units are level4 anyway. they beat the toughest defender. even if one of them can't, i have units to sacrifice.
and when we reach maces time, i also have 4-5 catapults (plus sometimes spies) per stack any way.
but sure, in deity the situation may be different because of higher unit costs. i've started working on deity nowadays and will report later.

- MOUNTED VS SPEARS ----> Remember this? Yes? How you were saying that mounted has a disadvantage because it can't take CR? A mounted unit will always face >120% defensive bonuses against a spear in a city except under the most extreme, culture-less circumstances where it hasn't fortified yet. Once again, almost every archer unit will have enough % too. The only things you'd want CR on mounted against are the least common defenders against them. Also, mounted is supposed to use its mobility to strike less garrisoned areas, which means generally the tougher stuff is fought in the field if it must be fought, and skews the typical defender towards archers even more (which was done in the game you've ignored so far).

* 95% of my games, I train no spears.
* i don't hate mounted units moreover i use them a lot (chariot or knight generally). not having CR was one of the disadv that i listed. and that disadv list was about keshiks, not all mounted units.

i just don't find keshik itself so useful. i suppose, why keshik becomes so powerful in your games is mostly because of GER. mongol empire is strong, ger is strong, keshik is not much. i just believe like this. or at least, it's just like that for my settings.
the biggest handicap for me is that it requires HB riding and archery which i don't prefer to research in early game unless UU is extremely strong.i told about this before as well.

Now, the 120% doesn't always hold true. As others have said, other factors change the break-even point. However, the fact remains that in a lot of cases, combat I > CR I for an early rush. When you consider that combat is a lot more dynamic in that it functions in *all* situations, it looks even less damaging to take it.

CR has its place in the early rush, but is actually stronger once you can break culture defenses somehow as once those are stripped the chances of the combat I break-even are far lower.

As i said before, i use both combat and cr. moreover, i don't promote most of the units until i reach enemy city. i promote them just before the attack, according to enemy city.
i generally try not to fight outside cities. it's just a waste of HP for me. i clean the outsiders after i take the city anyway.

and by the way, in another thread i've seen some recent posts by you telling how powerful CR maces are, for city attacking.

You keep saying you know and then keep making it look an awful lot like you don't.

Combat odds have accurately displayed the effects of 1st strikes for some time now...and the effects are to simply null a lost combat round if it was a first strike round. The game can handle that math just fine...even the first strike chances.

you said "for some time now". i'm not sure if the version i play considers 1st strikes in the formula or not. i had a recent patch once but after i reformatted the pc, i just didn't install any patch, just BTS.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

about defense%; during my early rushes none of the enemy cities have city walls and similarly very few are on hills. even during mid-early rushes few enemy cities have walls. and most of the time, the enemy city culture is 40% at most.
but sure archer defense still makes a high percentage.but who cares, some of my units are level4 anyway. they beat the toughest defender. even if one of them can't, i have units to sacrifice.
and when we reach maces time, i also have 4-5 catapults (plus sometimes spies) per stack any way.
but sure, in deity the situation may be different because of higher unit costs. i've started working on deity nowadays and will report later.

My point was that most archers will at least be close to if not over that threshold.

A mace-based stack is getting closer to a mid game war, but certainly things change when you involve them, since longbows have less inherent city defenses than archers (though higher base str), and this pushes things in the direction of city raider.

i just don't find keshik itself so useful. i suppose, why keshik becomes so powerful in your games is mostly because of GER.

I'd take the terrain movement and 1st strike over the 2 xp any day. It makes it so easy to threaten multiple cities.

As i said before, i use both combat and cr. moreover, i don't promote most of the units until i reach enemy city. i promote them just before the attack, according to enemy city.
i generally try not to fight outside cities. it's just a waste of HP for me. i clean the outsiders after i take the city anyway.

and by the way, in another thread i've seen some recent posts by you telling how powerful CR maces are, for city attacking.

Yes, because in the time of maces, you are bombarding defenses down. IF one were to foolishly attack longbows behind walls or castles without doing something about the defenses, then combat would technically still be better, although in that scenario the mace is committing suicide regardless of promotion.

I also wait to promote most of my units, although I'm not shy about 1) killing an AI SoD outside of cities (especially if its possible to hit it with lots of collateral on flatlands) or 2) pick off stray AI units with mounted then return to my stack on the same turn.

I thought the combat odds were fixed (excepting some relatively rare siege withdraw chances) before BTS was released, but I might be mistaken. It's been over a year for sure though.

 

[Wodan]

i just don't find keshik itself so useful. i suppose, why keshik becomes so powerful in your games is mostly because of GER. mongol empire is strong, ger is strong, keshik is not much. i just believe like this. or at least, it's just like that for my settings.

We can't consider something in isolation. Who in their right mind would make a bunch of Keshiks without making Gers first?

Also, we need to understand that the game designers knew about the Ger when they decided what bonus to give to the Keshik. They knew Keshik/Ger would be going together and the bonuses would be additive.

And what do your settings have to do with it? That's a really confusing statement.

 

[Ramesses-Rules]

Since TheMeInTeam taught me the correct way to do a rush with War Chariots, I have used it often successfully. The warmongering part is now easy for me even at Emperor, but I am still working on how to manage the economy during and after the first war. In my current game Monty built a city right next to Thebes that is covered with jungle. It would be a drain on my economy until I get IW, so I decided to raze it and come back later -- after I get IW -- with a Settler on that spot. I wish somebody would start a thread on the economics of early warfare. That is my biggest weakness now.

The debate over CR vs. Combat was interesting to read. In my War Chariot stacks I like to include a few units with the Flanking promotion. The idea is to attack with them first, because some will manage to do damage and withdraw before getting killed, whereas if you send in your other units first, they will nearly always get killed. That was advice I got from somebody a long time ago, but I haven't seriously tested it against other options. I readily confess to being an amateur when it comes to warmongering!

 

[kivanc]

We can't consider something in isolation. Who in their right mind would make a bunch of Keshiks without making Gers first?

Also, we need to understand that the game designers knew about the Ger when they decided what bonus to give to the Keshik. They knew Keshik/Ger would be going together and the bonuses would be additive.

And what do your settings have to do with it? That's a really confusing statement.

Yep. But I'm not considering any UU in isolation. All comments were considered together with the leader and even the free techs.
About this keshik matter, I said like this shortly: Mongols are strong but keshik not that much, which means mongols are still strong and keshik is a nerf. if keshiks had a free promotion, mongols would be overpowered togetehr with other factors.
About settings issue, maybe you missed the comments between me and micmbk. i simply believe that in marathon fastness is nerfed a little bit.
keshik should be stronger in speeds faster than marathon, such as fast worker.

building a road on forest with worker in marathon: 9 turns+1turn move into the forest
building a road on forest with fast worker in marathon: 9 turns (the 1st turn fast worker moves on the forest and start building road)
the efficiency here makes 10/9 whereas in faster speeds it is 4/3 and sth similarly.
But of course if you have high number of fast workers than the efficiency practically increases, considering you move as a stack.
depending on civics/unit costs, in some games i have workers twice # of cities, and in some eras (mid game for ex) even more than that.

Since TheMeInTeam taught me the correct way to do a rush with War Chariots, I have used it often successfully. The warmongering part is now easy for me even at Emperor, but I am still working on how to manage the economy during and after the first war. In my current game Monty built a city right next to Thebes that is covered with jungle. It would be a drain on my economy until I get IW, so I decided to raze it and come back later -- after I get IW -- with a Settler on that spot. I wish somebody would start a thread on the economics of early warfare. That is my biggest weakness now.

Yes. economy That's a very important issue about high levels. But I believe more than economics of early warfare, midgame economy is hard at high levels.
High difficulties favor wars more than easy levels. economic/scientific AI boosts change enormously per each difficulty level up while combat odds are not that much effected by difficulty. So AIs have to be continously disturbed. If you let them grow peacefully, most of the time they easily beat you in tech.
as the main parameter behind tech is the sum of beakers, being large is the key. but how to do this (when to expand) in higher levels seems like a learn-how experience. You should play much. Keeping a balance between economy and expanding is hard at high levels but i believe you shouldn't give up expanding anyway.

you have to be large, but what is the tuning of it, how many cities? Well, I generally let AIs beat me in tech during mid game, and expand. In early game, they already start faster. I mean, I kill a few, yes, but some AIs which aren't on my continent beat me in tech. You can understand this from religions found and wonders built. So what I generally do is letting some AIs beat me in tech during mid game and not loosing control on motivation and strategy, not to get pessimistic i just continue warring and try to expand.

the more you expand in mid game, the more back you get in tech. I try to set the expanding tuning such as that i'm not very very behind in tech. if you haven't been enourmously behind, you can catch them after mid game. economics of a large country is such in my games on high difficulties. in monarch and below, i am generally ahead of everyone in tech allover the game.

i'm playing my first deity game with Huayna Capac nowadays. I killed Khmers very early and the French in ~2000BC. I finished scouting the continent and there is no other AI. I assume, 1/2 of the AIs in other continents might also have been killed by barbs already. I have the great wall and the pyramids. I paused at ~~1500BC when mids is complete. Just before I got to bed ~1500BC, i heard that Christianity is found.
i'm very uncomfortable with that. I have no AI to attack. The pottery is about to come (i researched some other techs before pottery as it wasn't essential yet at that moment and even with a FIN leader i don't start cottaging in early game). I hope i will get fast in tech after that.
I'm sure the game would be much easier if i played on a pangaea map on standart world size. i would kill 2 AIs and then i would disturb the remaining 4 (4 or such. was it 7 seven players in std?) AIs continously. I would make small attacks all the time and they would come back gifting me GGs. Then after each military tech, I would kill another AI. This plans seems much simpler. Economy is hard in deity.

For the ones who would be interested, here is an attachment. an excel sheet with formulas and also pdf formats. "xp guide v2"
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8843591&postcount=114

 

[Wodan]

Yep. But I'm not considering any UU in isolation.

If you say "Ger is strong, keshik is not much" aren't you doing exactly that (considering the UU in isolation)?

About this keshik matter, I said like this shortly: Mongols are strong but keshik not that much, which means mongols are still strong and keshik is a nerf.

You're doing it again.

Anyway, as TMIT and others posted, you're seriously underestimating a First Strike and ignoring terrain.

if keshiks had a free promotion

You mean, such as a free first strike?

About settings issue, maybe you missed the comments between me and micmbk. i simply believe that in marathon fastness is nerfed a little bit.
keshik should be stronger in speeds faster than marathon, such as fast worker.

If by "fastness" you mean the Keshik ability to ignore terrain... I think that ability is more tactical than speed. For speed, what's it do? Allow you to save 1 turn of movement as you invade? That's not much benefit. The true gain is in ability to threaten and pillage across a broad front, then retreat without the enemy being able to pursue. That has nothing to do with speed setting... in fact, it's even more powerful on Marathon because you have more time to spend raiding across the broad front.

I don't have any cmment on the Indian fast worker.

economic/scientific AI boosts change enormously per each difficulty level up while combat odds are not that much effected by difficulty.

Are you forgetting the bonuses the AIs get at high levels? This directly influences the number of units. Individual combat odds aren't affected but you have more units you have to fight, which is the same thing, really.

So AIs have to be continously disturbed. If you let them grow peacefully, most of the time they easily beat you in tech.

I don't agree with this conclusion. (I didn't agree with the assumption that led to it, either. Bad assumptions lead to a bad conclusion, big surprise.)

The AIs can't build infrastructure anywhere close to a human. Also, the AIs can't abuse trading like a human can. Both of these things can enable a human to not only keep up, but surpass the AI in tech capabillity.

as the main parameter behind tech is the sum of beakers, being large is the key. but how to do this (when to expand) in higher levels seems like a learn-how experience. You should play much. Keeping a balance between economy and expanding is hard at high levels but i believe you shouldn't give up expanding anyway.

I very much agree with these statements.

 

[kivanc]

If by "fastness" you mean the Keshik ability to ignore terrain... I think that ability is more tactical than speed. For speed, what's it do? Allow you to save 1 turn of movement as you invade? That's not much benefit. The true gain is in ability to threaten and pillage across a broad front, then retreat without the enemy being able to pursue. That has nothing to do with speed setting... in fact, it's even more powerful on Marathon because you have more time to spend raiding across the broad front.

Yes pillaging and returning back to the stack is already the main adv of the mounted units. And also capturing workers is even a bigger adv for me. Because if i leave an undefended worker and attack the city, i cannot get the worker.
keshik can do this better as it can go into a forest and continue moving still, i understand this.

and by the way, @wodan, TMIT and all who love keshik, hands up! i accept that keshik is strong.

but still everytime i consider keshik my mind tell me "why not play Cyrus/Hannibal if you want a mounted unit?"
I think I love CHA trait. That's the main reason i underestimate keshik.

 

[Wodan]

and by the way, @wodan, TMIT and all who love keshik, hands up! i accept that keshik is strong.

but still everytime i consider keshik my mind tell me "why not play Cyrus/Hannibal if you want a mounted unit?"
I think I love CHA trait. That's the main reason i underestimate keshik.

You just answered yourself.

On the one hand, you consider the Immortal and Numidian Cavalry strong because their leaders have CHA. On the other hand, you consider the Keshik weak because the Mongols don't have CHA.

My suggestion is to experiment, learn how to get the best value out of leaders, buildings, and units you currently aren't playing to their fullest capability.

 

[Ramesses-Rules]

Camarilla...

Thanks for the reply. Could you give me a little advice in my current Emperor game? Here is my situation:

1. 850 B.C.
2. I just finished War Chariot rush and killed Monty.
3. He founded Buddism, but I have it in only 1 of my 5 cities.
4. I have 245 gold
5. Techs I have so far: Fishing, Wheel,Agric.,Mining,Masonry,AH,Pottery,Sailing,Writing, BW. I will have Mysticism in 1 turn. So, you see, I have religion now but none of the religion techs.
6. Units: 7 War Chariots, 1 Warrior, 2 workers.
7. Currently building library in Thebes, and Settler, Worker, Granary in other cities.
8. I have gems and good commercial crops, but they are all buried in jungle and I don't yet have Iron Working.
9. Neighbors are the Chinese dude Qin Shi who founded Judism and is "annoyed", and Capac who has no religion. There is one barb village nearby in a pretty good spot. There is quite a bit of other land around but mostly jungle junk with no particularly good resources.

This is pretty typical of my situation after I do a War Chariot rush and eliminate my nearest civ. In this case, Monty was really jamming me. But then, I usually screw up trying to get my economy on track. What would you do next in this game? Thanks.

 

[kivanc]

Camarilla...

Thanks for the reply. Could you give me a little advice in my current Emperor game? Here is my situation:

1. 850 B.C.
2. I just finished War Chariot rush and killed Monty.
3. He founded Buddism, but I have it in only 1 of my 5 cities.
4. I have 245 gold
5. Techs I have so far: Fishing, Wheel,Agric.,Mining,Masonry,AH,Pottery,Sailing,Writing, BW. I will have Mysticism in 1 turn. So, you see, I have religion now but none of the religion techs.
6. Units: 7 War Chariots, 1 Warrior, 2 workers.
7. Currently building library in Thebes, and Settler, Worker, Granary in other cities.
8. I have gems and good commercial crops, but they are all buried in jungle and I don't yet have Iron Working.
9. Neighbors are the Chinese dude Qin Shi who founded Judism and is "annoyed", and Capac who has no religion. There is one barb village nearby in a pretty good spot. There is quite a bit of other land around but mostly jungle junk with no particularly good resources.

This is pretty typical of my situation after I do a War Chariot rush and eliminate my nearest civ. In this case, Monty was really jamming me. But then, I usually screw up trying to get my economy on track. What would you do next in this game? Thanks.

it seems you have been a bit late in tech, friend. also up to 850BC, you might have already taken over Huayna Capac together with Monty. But as i didn't see the map, I don't know. Anyway, i will try to make some suggestions.

barbs: do you have the great wall? beware, you may have increased barb activity soon.

expanding:
* growth (vertical expansion) is critical now. Do whatever you must for having a good happy cap.
* What are the settings? Large&marathon?
* if you play on std map, 5 cities might be be enough for now, so just stop horizontal expansion for some time and try to increase science %. but if you've already wasted much hammers towards settler, don't stop. you can always make him sleep anyway.
* if you play on large, you really need to expand horizontally (more cities)

* if you believe you need to REX, here is my suggestion. As I don't know where there are new resources, I cannot know where to settle. But at this stage of the game i generally expand so as to leave inland to settle later so i first settle on positions a little far from capital. In early game the maintenance highly depends on #of cities more than distance maintenance anyway.
the key is blocking territory from AI. draw a slightly large circle (not quite large) and don't settle in it. start expanding by borders.

EDIT: I'm adding attachment to show my style of REXing.
View attachment REX_example_large_world.zip
Existing cities are orange where new cities are shown as green according to building order 1 to 5.
I assumed you founded 3 cities and captured 2 from monty. And included the first wave of rexing (like how i would) with 5 additional cities. Considering you play on large, 10cities (till let's say ~250AD) is fine as you have 5 in 850BC.

* Also when picking squares for new cities, prefer good-commerce ones, as you've been back in tech. especially gems are very good as they just give 2food and good commerce.

* if you have a small island near you, plan to build a colony in the future as you already have sailing. if you have 2 small islands, build 2 colonies.

warfare:
* what is the map type? are Qin and Capac your only neighbours in continent? When you are ready to fight again, attack Huayna Capac first. He's a dangerous guy and AI plays him quite well. He should me stopped before expanding much. Also because the protective guy Qin is harder to kill with siege, Huayna Capac is the 1st to kill. But sure, how can i know, if Qin has 2 cities while HC has 7, then Qin should be the 1st.

* is Capac close to your borders? if so you can maybe kill him in the near future. But if now you have enough area to expand some time, maybe you should pause warring to recover tech.

tech:
* in how many turns will u be able to research Iron Working? IW and alphabet seems essential.
* Qin is generally a peaceful guy so why don't you adopt his religion (later)? you have only 1/5 cities with your state religion anyway. if some time later judaism spreads in your lands, adopt it. will this be enough to make him better than cautious towards you? i mean, you could make some tech trade with him after alphabet maybe, so this would fasten up your tech. you will not attack him before catapults anyway. i believe he should be ahead of you in tech. you just hope that he doesn't have some of your techs. sailing he may not have maybe?
* by the way, why have you researched sailing so early?

 

[Ramesses-Rules]

Hey, thanks a lot. I am going to back up and fix some errors.

1. I should have adopted Judism to get Qin Shi pleased with me and then switch to Buddism much later after I have spread it all over and gotten as much trade out of him as possible before pissing him off by switching religions.

2. This is a standard map. Attacking Capac is not feasible because he is a long distance away. Actually, right now, I am in no position to attack anybody after killing Monty because that war has depleted my military and my economy, as I say, is a problem until I can get IW and work the gems and cash crops.
3. Barbs are no problem. I have more than enough War Chariots in my cities to deal with them. I will eventually take out that barb city next door.
4. Since my last note, a couple other civs appeared, but they are also even farther away so not any immediate concern. One has Judism, the other has no religion.
5. I have plenty of (not very good) land to expand into, but it would cripple my economy right now to build more than one additional city. Nevertheless, I am building one settler at the moment because there is a beautiful location that Qin will take if I can't beat him to it.
5. I had to do Sailing early for economy and military reasons. It was the fastest way for Thebes to get access to Horses. My second city also had some nice health resources that Thebes needed to support heavy forest chopping. Conveniently, Monty was also most attackable via a coastal development approach -- his best city was straight down the coast.
6. What I need the most help with is tips on how to recover my economy after the first war -- not just this game, but in general. As I say, that is where I get stuck. Should I research Alpha, and hope to trade it for Iron working, Mathematics, and some religion techs? Meanwhile, cottage like crazy and build roads between my new cities that are (post-war) disconnected and look disorganized. Or, I could go heavy on religion with Oblisks, Temples, Priests, Great Prophets. That also generates some cash (and happy citizens). What is your usual approach to libraries? Do you just put them in your first two biggest cities, or do you build them liberally in your other cites as well to improve science rate and expand borders (if I am not going with religion -- temples, priests, great prophets, etc.) to accomplish that?

 

[kivanc]

Hey, thanks a lot. I am going to back up and fix some errors.

1. I should have adopted Judism to get Qin Shi pleased with me and then switch to Buddism much later after I have spread it all over and gotten as much trade out of him as possible before pissing him off by switching religions.

2. This is a standard map. Attacking Capac is not feasible because he is a long distance away. Actually, right now, I am in no position to attack anybody after killing Monty because that war has depleted my military and my economy, as I say, is a problem until I can get IW and work the gems and cash crops.
3. Barbs are no problem. I have more than enough War Chariots in my cities to deal with them. I will eventually take out that barb city next door.
4. Since my last note, a couple other civs appeared, but they are also even farther away so not any immediate concern. One has Judism, the other has no religion.
5. I have plenty of (not very good) land to expand into, but it would cripple my economy right now to build more than one additional city. Nevertheless, I am building one settler at the moment because there is a beautiful location that Qin will take if I can't beat him to it.
5. I had to do Sailing early for economy and military reasons. It was the fastest way for Thebes to get access to Horses. My second city also had some nice health resources that Thebes needed to support heavy forest chopping. Conveniently, Monty was also most attackable via a coastal development approach -- his best city was straight down the coast.
6. What I need the most help with is tips on how to recover my economy after the first war -- not just this game, but in general. As I say, that is where I get stuck. Should I research Alpha, and hope to trade it for Iron working, Mathematics, and some religion techs? Meanwhile, cottage like crazy and build roads between my new cities that are (post-war) disconnected and look disorganized. Or, I could go heavy on religion with Oblisks, Temples, Priests, Great Prophets. That also generates some cash (and happy citizens). What is your usual approach to libraries? Do you just put them in your first two biggest cities, or do you build them liberally in your other cites as well to improve science rate and expand borders (if I am not going with religion -- temples, priests, great prophets, etc.) to accomplish that?

well, i don't like CE. even with FIN leaders i adopt a hybrid economy instead of pure CE.
if you are mighty ramesses, then you can go thru obelisk. in fact, if i was in your position i would research iron working earlier than writing and even earlier than pottery.
why did you need them so early?
you have obelisk anyway. the more important thing is vertical growth now. and granary is not so much urgent in some cases, if your city is already near to the happy cap.
i build libraries in nearly all cities but not in early game. IMO, you don't need libraries yet. without good commerce, they will not have a good effect anyway.
and if you are on std map, then 5 cities are ok. you will have 6-7 in no time anyway, as i understand. it should be ok for std map i assume. after you recover in tech, you can continue rexing.

 

[K.K.]

At this stage I usually tech Monarchy to grow my cities under Hereditary rule.

 

[Wodan]

i build libraries in nearly all cities but not in early game. IMO, you don't need libraries yet. without good commerce, they will not have a good effect anyway.

Libraries let you run 2 scientists.

 

[kivanc]

Libraries let you run 2 scientists.

yes but he has obelisk option already.
he needs urgent happy resources now i guess, or monarchy for sure but it must be expensive yet