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Instant vs Static Yield

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Jan 30, 2018.

  1. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Micromanagement is most certainly a skill. You may not value it, but it is a skill.

    Anyways this conversation is pointless as there is a < 0% chance I'm touching the instant/static yield balance as-is. There are many, many reasons I'd rather not delve into (for the sake of my own time and sanity) as to why a shift towards increased instant yields was a massive improvement over the bucket-filling model of civ 5. We're past this in VP's lifecycle, time to move on.

    G
     
    LukaSlovenia29 likes this.
  2. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    what the hell is RONCO?

    Also I think it's been fairly well-communicated at this point that tourism has been designed from the ground up as a feature which is driven primarily by instant yields. Disagree as to whether that should be the case, but pointing out something which appears to be working as intended, and holding up as evidence that the whole system is wrong is bizarre.

    Agree to disagree is the only solution here. If you don't like a product because of something intrinsic to the product, well that's just your taste. This is like saying you didn't like the Stanley Parable because there wasn't enough shooty action.
     
  3. Deadstarre

    Deadstarre Expert

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    :thumbsup:

    this one made me laugh. the current system in VP is fine (tourism UI quirk thats getting fixed aside) so dont get me wrong here but insulting the core gameplay mechanics of a massively successful franchise and thinking it needed a rework... i just wish i could have been there at the moment this happened so i could have said to you "Solution looking for a problem!" =)
     
    Blue Ghost likes this.
  4. Blue Ghost

    Blue Ghost King

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    +1

    Static yields are the core of Civ gameplay. Sure, instant yields are more exciting, and more interactive. But if everything were an instant yield, it would be massively complex and overwhelming. We need the simple, unexciting bits to hold the game together.
    The current balance is good.
     
  5. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    It does. Not civ 5, but the core concept of buckets is due for a rethink for 4x games. Rewards early investment way too much and leads to rich get richer loops. But that’s another conversation.

    G
     
  6. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    I find that the worst aspect of most 4x games is the almost impossible to handle late game. Automatization works to a point, but only if your empire is running well enough so you can leave the AI take care of repetitive tasks (specially micromanaging). Distant Worlds is one of the best in this regard.
    The other big issue with 4x games is that increasing difficulty almost always means a very hard early game, followed by a rather easy game once you've climbed the hill. Here, VP has made one of the best systems by spreading difficulty in time.

    I guess the impredictability of most instant yields can be compared to facing unexpected actions by the other AI. You don't know exactly when a civ is going to take a CS from you, or when another civ is going to be bribed against you, but you adapt. I do the same with economic yields. I don't plan most of them (only sometimes, if fulfilling a quest, I try to account for the production they are going to grant, for example), and I know that I cannot rely on the estimated time for next tech to time anything.

    Side note. Micromanaging might be a skill, but I think it's a better skill knowing what and how to delegate.
     
  7. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Note....G, I'm with you on your commitment to Instant Yields (agree to disagree). I'm just now talking for the heck of it, and sharing my thoughts about 4x games, not really trying to sell you on any points on this going forward.

    Tu, I agree with you on the late game. The fundamental problem I think in many 4x games is handling the aftermath of expansion. 4x relies on this model of large numbers of concrete "things" to manage....cities in civ, planets in some space 4x games, etc. It works great in the early game as you expand your empire. But you get to a point where its just tedium. The issue is....there should be a mechanism to consolidate those holdings into smaller units. For example, combining cities into some kind of "metropolis" or even "state". Combining planets into a "federation". So at some point I'm managing 20 units...but then consolidate back to 10....allowing me to expand once again without worrying about tedium. I know Stellaris has a flavor of this idea, but it did not work very well early on, not sure how it looks today.

    So instead we have seen the rise of the "Tall" model. In older Civ games, Tall was your one city challenge, it wasn't really a core part of the game. Expand is one of the Xs in 4x after all. Looking at Civ 4, Tall came about with the cultural victory (this may have happened in Civ 3, it was the one civ I never played). Its not that TALL was "good", but it became "acceptable" by offering a victory condition that a small civ could compete in. In Civ 4, expansion was still heavily encouraged, although it had a wonderful economic model that ensured you a pace to your expansion...but with the CV at least small civ had a shot. Then in Civ 5, Tall became a norm, even actually the "correct way to play" in normal Civ before VP helped to correct that.

    I actually consider the TALL economic model a crutch. Its a big stick mechanic that says "you really shouldn't expand"....when the real problem is there is no late game system to consolidate your expansions so that you can then expand some more without feeling like your playing bureaucracy the game.


    The other fundamental issue in most 4x games....there is no late game "shakeup" mechanic. Tu as you said, at some point in most games, you climb the hill, and once your at the top...there is no reason to keep playing. To me its not the hill climb mechanisms (early yields = better late game yields) that are the problem, its the lack of a "kick you off the hill" mechanic other than war. And that is why much of competitive Civ turns into a war game....its really the only game in town to deal with a runaway civ.

    In real life, why did the Civ on top ever fall down? Disasters, plague, internal strife, apathy and decay. Sure sometimes by war, but often by the "**** happens" factor of real life. But most 4x games don't model that, and I think that's a big lack. Again, Stellaris tries some of that with its end game conditions, so its a step in the right direction. Civs 6 ideas of "emergencies" is a great one, we will have to see how it looks in practice.
     
    hr_oskar likes this.
  8. Moi Magnus

    Moi Magnus Emperor

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    Does that mean we need more events randomly destroying part of the world ?
    Replacing all the little bad events by big disasters randomly poping, especially in end game, would be a fun modmod.
     
  9. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Now I'm remembering SimCity's Godzilla.
     
  10. Gidoza

    Gidoza Emperor

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    Instant yields is still bucket-filling, but it happens in heaps instead of a steady flow.
     
  11. Rekk

    Rekk Emperor

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    In my current game, I'm halfway through the industrial era, and I've gone Progress->Statecraft->Industry->Autocracy(Futurism). Is 114 tourism/turn expected at this point? I've just generated my third Great Musician (the two previous created great works), and his musical tour seems...underwhelming compared to my instant yields: 18-1-14-1 Musician.png
     
  12. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    This looks like the effect of trade routes. If you have additional trade routes, you spread tourism harder. It's a big bunch of instant tourism when stacking trading buildings.
     

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