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Interesting Screenshots

:faint:

But be honest: that's not from an unmodded game, is it... :mischief:
It's actually just the lazy version, as I only maxed out the yields of terrain, resources, and specialists. To get the true maximum we would need to create 256 buildings each with a production factor of 100 (+2500%), and all of the economic bonuses if we're maxing commerce too. That's with the official editor; most of these 100's could probably be set to 255 in the biq. And then trigger a GA and mobilization while building an eligible unit. Ain't nobody got time for that.
I've seen this attraction to big number builds elsewhere. I can't say I feel the same way. And it seems I will never understand it also.
I don't see it as much different than your playing for maximum score. You could win sooner and with less work, but you keep going to get a bigger number because you can.
 
Here is my version of the Bar Lev Line, keeping the opposition out of the Sinai and Israel. Samaria acts as the Suez Canal. I am playing on a fairly modified scenario of TETurkhan's Test of Time for Play the World. I have modified the terrain, along with adding resources and increasing resource yields. I have also changed the Dinosaurs by turning them loose on the map, with boosted hit points and combat data. They are quite nasty. I learned to put the Line in the hard way, after having workers attacked by the invisible Dinosaur unit, along with the Songhai, and the Barbarians. As it is, before I get it into place, I typically loose a few units. I am a firm believer in fortified borders making for good neighbors. If they are inclined not be to good, then I have fun watching them pay the price. If anyone wants a sample, just let me know and I will happily oblige.
My Bar Lev Line.png
 
I don't see it as much different than your playing for maximum score. You could win sooner and with less work, but you keep going to get a bigger number because you can.

Big number make brain happy.
 
I also believe that the tourist money from Great Wonders gets benefits from all multipliers.
It does indeed. After 2501 years it is 14 base commerce. That times 18 tourist attractions is 252 base commerce from tourists attractions alone, although you could never achieve that in a real game as that includes 2501 years of having the United Nations.
Do ICBMs get the mobilization bonus? We could have 1-turn ICBMs...
I know that artillery type units don't get the bonus. Not sure about planes and ships?!
Some ships and some airplanes get the bonus. Bombers, transport ships, armies and artillery units donnot get them. I assume ICBMs donnot get the bonus, but that lacks confirmation.

 
It does indeed. After 2501 years it is 14 base commerce. That times 18 tourist attractions is 252 base commerce from tourists attractions alone, although you could never achieve that in a real game as that includes 2501 years of having the United Nations.

Gotcha.

If we went of my previous suggestion of be England for the Commercial + Seafaring bonuses, and knowing that we need 2 coastal tiles to get the coastal great wonders, and just ignoring the "need to have the modern age wonders for 2500+ years" thing and put them all in the same city at the start, I think you could max out commerce with all those wonders (252), the tiles being 2 coastal tiles with Fish + Harbor + Commercial Dock (4 food, 4 gold each), and then whatever we need from FP+wheat and gold hills to max out money.

Actually, wait: since we're already being silly about this, Gems can appear in Jungle, which means they can be in grassland after clearing the jungle, and they also give a +4 commerce bonus, so we can actually make the other 18 tiles and the city center tile all cleared jungles with gems next to rivers with roads (and whatever other improvements we want, it doesn't matter) for 6 commerce from each of the 18 other tiles. The city center tile would have that base 5 commerce (Gems+River), then another 6 for being a Metropolis belonging to a Commercial civ, another +1 from Seafaring's coastal city bonus, +1 from the Palace for 13 total, so we're already at 13 + 18*6 + 4*2 = 129, then we add another +21 3 times from The Colossus, the Republic/Democracy commerce bonus, and being in a GA, pushing us up to 444 base commerce without considering any multipliers at all. If we put that all into money with a Market+Bank+Stock Exchange that would be 1,110 gpt, and if we put that all into science with a Library+University+Research Lab+All 3 of the Science-Doubling Wonders, that would get us to 2,442 beakers per turn.
 
The city center tile would have that base 5 commerce (Gems+River), then another 6 for being a Metropolis belonging to a Commercial civ, another +1 from Seafaring's coastal city bonus, +1 from the Palace for 13 total,
The palace does not give a bonus. Yes, there is lower limit, but for any city of a commercial tribe this is irrelevant. You get 3 from metro size, 3 from commercial bonus at metro size, 1 from republic, 1 from river, 1 from coastal city bonus from seafaring tribe, up to 4 from a resource like gems. So that is 13 prior to GA und Collosus. But the Colossus expires before the modern age. You have to choose between +14 from UN and +21 from Colossus. The later is more important for base commerce, but SETI is more important for research output.
So unless you pre-place modern wonders while not being in the modern age, you have to choose. You can have 13+20*7+21*2=195 from tiles and 14*17=238 from wonders or 13+20*7+21*1=174 from tiles and 14*18=252 from wonders. So 433 or 426 base commerce. Add 150% from normal multiplyers and 300% from wonders that gives you 426*(1+1.5+3)=2343 beakers plus scientists. If you can reconcile collossus with modern age, then it is (426+21)*(1+1.5+3)=2458.5=2458 beakers plus scientists. 21 scientists add another 63 for 2343+63=2406 beakers or 2458+63=2521 beakers respectively.
 
I don't see it as much different than your playing for maximum score. You could win sooner and with less work, but you keep going to get a bigger number because you can.

The game has score as acknowledged at the end of every game. Number of shields per turn in a city isn't acknowledged once a game ends. Maximum score concerns the result at the end of a game. Since number of shields works out per turn it has no relevance when zero turns remain.

Most of the time when playing for high score or near maximum score, there exist all sorts of choices about how to expand the empire or focus on the happiness and contentedness of citizens. A heavy focus on the happiness of citizens does not strike me as all that similar to a heavy focus on how much shields citizens produce. Also, playing for high score involves trying to find high value city spots which have a large number of citizens working tiles while also having less tiles that count towards the domination limit (sea squares don't count). The AIs also need controlled to not win, but that has no relevance to highly productive cities. Playing for high score also involves maximizing population within cities at good spots, while also getting in the infrastructure to support the happiness and contentedness of citizens. Each type of specialist can be useful in such histographic games, unlike many other games where entertainers do not seem useful at all. Entertainers do not have any relevance to a city which produces a lot of shields.

Perhaps if maximizing population of cities were the only goal for high score histographic games, they would end up similar. Irrigation might get thought of as the inverse of mining, I suppose.

But, for example, have a look at a city named Whale Saltpeter. It's on a hill. Planting cities on hills doesn't make sense if trying to maximize shields. I would expect that many people would believe that a city like Whale Saltpeter as optimal as unexpected by many people. That signifies something different to me. Cities sometimes also optimally end up placed on top of food bonus tiles, including grassland cow tiles (because of greater sea squares if the city goes on top of the cow). Cities like whale saltpeter also take a lot of turns to get up to speed. They need workers from other cities to grow more quickly, gold for infrastructure. Perhaps that strikes you as similar to getting a highly productive city up to speed, as one might do in a 20k game. But, then also a city like Whale Saltpeter also needs heavy use of the luxury slider. The luxury slider isn't needed for highly productive cities. The gold needs to come from the tax slider.

Needing to use both the tax sliders and luxury sliders and some form of science isn't like needing to use the science slider.

Also, again, for maximum score a large usage of sea squares comes as desired. But, for highly productive cities one wants large usage of land tiles. Sea tiles are not like land tiles! Only at the low level of code, I suppose, are those tiles "not much different".

Edit: Playing for maximum score ALSO can involve getting something from AIs, even at Chieftain. War happiness. I suppose getting gold or technologies researched could have relevance for getting a city up to a high number of shields. But, war happiness has use from some point until the end of the game in a high score histographic game (2 of the highest scoring games on record have 4 AIs supplying war happiness). I don't see how things are similar when the AI becomes irrelevant as with a big number city focus in comparison to when war happiness has relevance.
 
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You'd likely also want to make it coastal to get The Colossus (which would necessitate having a minimum of two coast tiles in the BFC)

We can't have a research lab and The Colossus before Flight at the same time. The Colossus providing 20/21 tiles of extra commerce is less than a research lab for those same 20/21 tiles for any city with at least 2 river or coast tiles I think?

I also believe that the tourist money from Great Wonders gets benefits from all multipliers.

It does indeed.

Maybe I'm not understanding multipliers, but if factories, power plants, and manufacturting plants qualify as multipliers, then tourist money from GWs does not get benefit from all multipliers. Also, if you have a science building and run 100% taxes, GWs won't get benefit from the science building multiplier. If you run 100% science, GWs won't get benefit from your marketplace multiplier (unless... you don't have a marketplace???). If you run 100% luxuries, GWs won't get benefits from any multipliers :).

There's no benefit from a multiplier when you multiply by zero.
 
There's no benefit from a multiplier when you multiply by zero.
Sure, but that is not the case relevant in this instance. The meaning is that tourist attractions add to base commerce. Base commerce is subject to corruption and then multiplyers. Whether the base commerce stems from tiles or tourist attractions makes no difference regarding multiplyer buildings.
 
The meaning is that tourist attractions add to base commerce. Base commerce is subject to corruption and then multiplyers.

I like this better. But, I'm struggling to understand what base commerce means. Can you define it? Yes, commerce gets subjected to corruption first. It can also get subjected to multipliers such as libraries, or marketplaces or factories. But, what if we use the luxury slider heavily and have captured cities with wonders?

I guess luxury commerce is not base commerce. Instead luxury commerce is high commerce. Because there does not exist a single multiplier for luxury commerce.

But tourist attractions still add to the amount of luxury commerce! Alright, I guess luxury commerce is part of base commerce.

If so, then base commerce is subject to corruption and then type of commerce and then multipliers if possible.
 
We can't have a research lab and The Colossus before Flight at the same time. The Colossus providing 20/21 tiles of extra commerce is less than a research lab for those same 20/21 tiles for any city with at least 2 river or coast tiles I think?

Yes, you're correct, and you also need to get past flight to get to SETI, so you can't have the Colossus and max science. It is still beneficial to be coastal to get the tourist money from the Colossus and the Lighthouse, more than making up for the loss from the Fish coast tiles with a Commerical Dock not producing quite as much gold as River + Gems/Gold + Road does.

You would be able to maximize commerce with Colossus, though, since all the money-multiplier buildings come before Flight and the only tourist wonder you'd be missing out on is the UN.
 
it will be harder to get them to flip given this behaviour of garrisoning troops
And yet the AI sometimes seems to load the dice to rob me of a ten-knight garrison or similar.
Mine baby, mine! :D
For some reason, you reminded me of ‘Myron, baby, Myron!’.
Anyway, I think this may be the theoretical maximum in terms of shields, without going into negative food: 612


View attachment 716389
  • 4 cows on bonus grassland, 3 irrigated and 1 mined with rails
  • 16 coal hills, mined with rails
  • city center is an iron hill (so we can have the Ironworks)
  • an industrious civ (like Maya in this case) for 3 additional shields in the city center
  • Factory, Nuclear Plant, Manufacturing Plant and Ironworks
  • Golden Age and Mobilization for 2 extra shields per tile
Now let's move on to the next question... :D
What's the maximum amount of beakers?
I guess we would have to replace all the coal by gold, fit a river on that island so that it touches all the tiles, and then add Copernicus, Newton and SETI. (I already gave the city Library, University an Research Lab.)

Edit: ah, no, I forgot the GA + mobilization... I updated the number and the picture.
Please stop it with the pornography, and I'll point out that any player who knows how to yo-yo with a granary can not lose population and still add extra shields every other turn or so. If veeery properly managed you can hit a 0% growth rate and just about rake in the shields.
 
Alright, I just went ahead and made the max money and beakers city, with a bunch of gems jungles (which I immediately cleared and roaded using a bunch of workers) surrounded by rivers, the Commercial + Seafaring English with a coastal capital on a hills with gold (the editor wouldn't let me place a city on a jungle and keep it and the gems), a couple of coastal fish to make it coastal, and all the wonders and multiplier buildings I could stack into the city. Then to make the tourism money flow in faster I changed the number of years/turn to 1,000.

Incidentally this also showed another reason why this would be impossible in the actual game: On top of you not being able to build all those wonders and have them for 2500 years, building all of the ancient age ones alone would give every Civ a Golden Age, which would end well before you'd be able to collect any tourism money, though I imagine you could build enough of them quickly enough to get more money from the tourism in the late game than you'd get from the +21 gpt from the golden age.

First up, end of the IA with everything except Flight to keep Colossus active, all the Tourist Attraction Wonders minus the UN, coming out to a nice big 1,072 gpt:

s2MWXLM.png


But that's nothing compared to what you get maxing out science, even losing the Colossus's +21 gpt and replacing it with +14 gpt of UN money, because of how much extra you get from the three science-doubling wonders. Here it's 2,321 beakers per turn:

TmlOBmU.png
 
And I guess if I really felt like it, I could irrigate and railroad all those tiles and join the excess workers into the city to make a bunch of specialists. It would make 82 fpt and be able to support itself at size 41, so either 21 extra taxmen for +42 gold or 21 extra scientists for +63 beakers.
 
Alright, what's the most amount of culture per turn a city can have?

Why do I ask this? Because I think it makes more of the tech tree useful than almost anything else.
 
Every culture-producing building:

Palace: 1
Temple: 2
Library: 3
Cathedral: 3
University: 4
Colosseum: 2
Research Lab: 2

Total: 17

Small Wonders:

Heroic Epic: 4
Iron Works: 2
Forbidden Palace: 2
Military Academy: 1
Pentagon: 1
Wall Street: 2
Apollo Program: 2
Missile Defense: 1
Intelligence Agency: 1
Battlefield Medicine: 1

Total: 17

Great Wonders:

Pyramids: 4
Hanging Gardens: 4
Colossus: 3
Great Lighthouse: 2
Great Library: 6
Oracle: 4
Great Wall: 2
Temple of Artemis: 4
Statue of Zeus: 4
Mausoleum of Mausollos: 2
Sun Tzu's: 2
Knights Templar: 2
Sistine Chapel: 6
Magellan's Voyage: 3
Copernicus' Observatory: 4
Shakespeare's Theater: 8
Leo's Workshop: 2
Bach's Cathedral: 6
Newton's University: 6
Smith's Trading Company: 3
Universal Suffrage: 4
Hoover Dam: 2
Theory of Evolution: 3
United Nations: 4
Manhattan Project: 2
Cure for Cancer: 3
Longevity: 3
SETI: 3
Internet: 4

Total: 105

Building all of these in one city would get to 139 culture per turn, and having these all built for 1,000 years would double that to 278. Leaving aside the impossibility of building every great wonder in the same city or having them all built for 1,000 years, or that you'd never build the Palace and FP in the same city, that's the theoretical upper limit.
 
Building all of these in one city would get to 139 culture per turn, and having these all built for 1,000 years would double that to 278. Leaving aside the impossibility of building every great wonder in the same city or having them all built for 1,000 years, or that you'd never build the Palace and FP in the same city, that's the theoretical upper limit.
I would argue that it is less impossible and just unlikely and unreasonable.

If you play at Chieftain, know where the great iron works can later be built, get an SGL for almost every tech, use those SGLs to rush wonders in the city where you will build the FP, later build the FP and after that move the palace into the same city, then you can actually achieve having all culture producing buildings in one city.

That so far is essentially just rerolling the dice a lot. Can you also get the 1000 years on say Missile defence?

turn 025 is 2750BC
turn 050 is 1750BC
turn 090 is 0750BC
turn 140 is 0250AD
turn 240 is 1250AD
turn 340 is 1750AD
turn 440 is 1950AD
turn 540 is 2050AD

turn 220 is 1050AD. That is when you will need:
-13 modern techs, 3 of which can be can be gotten as scientific tribe bonus tech
-18 industrial techs, of which 3 can be delayed because they are optional, 2 non optional techs can be gotten from scientific tribe bonus tech and 2 can be gotten from ToE
-21 medieval techs, of which 8 can be delayed because they are optional and 3 non optional techs can be gotten from scientific tribe bonus tech
-21 ancient techs, of which 3 can be delayed because they are optional, up to 7 are starting techs, 1 tech can be gotten from philo and several can be gotten from bonus huts.

Say that bonus huts and starting techs make up 7+5=12 techs and philo is "wasted" on republic, then you need to research at least 10+11+10+6=37 techs in 220 turns or 5.946 turns per tech. That is not completely undoable. If you choose to play russia you may even increase the difficulty setting to warlord(35% chance of tech in bonus hut) or even regent(33.33% chance of tech in bonus hut).

 
Even at a low difficulty level with lots of SGL's, you'd probably need to do it on a tiny map with only one or two opponents, to limit the competition with other AI's and give you a better chance of getting Ivory for SoZ. I do know of a game way back in the day where the player was against 2 AI opponents on Monarch in Vanilla and built all the great wonders in two cities, so it's probably doable to get everything in one city on a lower difficulty level, but pretty hard- if would need to be a coastal city with a river and Iron and Coal in its BFC.

You'd also clearly trip the 20k Culture limit long before you maxed out your culture per turn, so you'd either need to turn that off or not care if you do that as long as you can get to max culture before 2050.
 
I would argue that it is less impossible and just unlikely and unreasonable.

As choxorn says, you would reach 20k sooner.

13 modern techs, 3 of which can be can be gotten as scientific tribe bonus tech

It ends up possible to get 4 relevant techs as scientific, since a scientific civ can get a 2nd level tech as their free tech via using "what's the big picture?" and trading for technologies before one starts the next turn. It wouldn't be useful to get Ecology when trading for AI free techs, because then the probability of getting one of the cultural prerequisite technologies decreases.


18 industrial techs, of which 3 can be delayed because they are optional, 2 non optional techs can be gotten from scientific tribe bonus tech and 2 can be gotten from ToE

Here also, with "What's the Big Picture?" and trading for 2 of them from AIs, the human player can receive a 3rd tech from scientific tribe bonus.


21 medieval techs, of which 8 can be delayed because they are optional and 3 non optional techs can be gotten from scientific tribe bonus tech

And here also, the human player can get 4 non optional techs.
 
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