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Interview with Firaxis' Dennis Shirk!

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Shanghai Six, Oct 19, 2010.

  1. ShuShu62

    ShuShu62 Warlord

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    Someone who has been posting more than is wise on the forum is unlikely to recognoze when to stop.

    Here's a hint, when you start attacking folks as noobs when they have made the same point you are trying to make (i.e. same side), but more effectively... its time to take a breath.

    P.S. Given all the obvious royal we usage on the boards, when you pick a clear example that wasn't... That's not really a good sign either. :)
     
  2. SuperJay

    SuperJay Bending Space and Time

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    Hehe, well said. :)

    Video game forums are serious business; the royal "we" on video game forums?!? EVEN SERIOUSER. :lol:
     
  3. da_Vinci

    da_Vinci Gypsy Prince

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    Now THAT is hillarious! :lol: :rotfl: :lol:

    dV
     
  4. Thoughtful Thug

    Thoughtful Thug Deity

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    If the developers do go ahead and add these other "systems" that was left out from cIV, it isn't because of the feedbacks from the forums. The decision was already made based on 2K telling them to send a unfinished product, and to replicate the same approach they had done with cIV (vanilla+expansion+expansion).

    So instead of us getting some of the features that was popular with the predecessor's game, all we got was half of what cIV vanilla was; and, the possibilities of not only what we will get from ciV DLCs, but as well as limited expansion packs that will fall far short from what we received from cIV and its expansion packs.

    ciV = more expansions and DLCs

    cIV = two expansions.

    It is in the business to make more money than what they had done in the last product that they had made.
     
  5. jjkrause84

    jjkrause84 King

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    I think the idea that appeaing to casual fans is good for busines is PAINFULLY short-sighted. They'll make a quick buck now but who's gonna buy Civ6? How many casual gamers have bought EVERY iteration of a particular game series? How many casual gamers can you count on?

    This is modern corporate mentality in a nutshell. Sure, things in ten years might not be so great but HEY look at this quarter's profit!
     
  6. Penwa

    Penwa Warlord

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    I turned it off as soon as he started complaining about British people. If your customers complain about your product you don't then go and complain back at them. You certainly don't single out a nation and complain about it. he just appears as an unintelligent, chauvinistic moron.
    He has just put me off of buying another one of their products.
     
  7. Venereus

    Venereus This Is Streamlined!

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    Didn't their last product do that for you already?
     
  8. Zechnophobe

    Zechnophobe Strategy Lich

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    There are less civs, and each civ has only one leader.
    You only make this decision once per SP unlock, and cannot re-evaluate it.
    There are less interesting and useful wonders in this game.
    Since tile yields are less variable, this decision is less important
    Hmm, ties in with previous point, but I guess I'll let you have this one.
    The potential is there, but the answer is almost always 'Yes'
    The number of buildings that provide them is less, and there are no civics like Caste System, or wonders like Statue of Liberty (civ4), angkor wat(civ4) to change that decision
    or build any of a large variety of other things. I'd certainly HOPE that was still there. Even then, the number of buildings that strictly require another building mean you have less building options.

    Well, let's abandon 'dumber' since it has an obvious negative connotation. Less Complex is really the better way of stating it. And what does 'simpler' mean other than 'less complex?'

    Fair enough, but just having an example or two of areas where complexity still exists doesn't mean the rest hasn't been hacked out.

    Remember, I was responding to this:

    The weights and values are changed, but the underlying concept is not. All they've done is made it so that the AI is weighted more towards war when it is losing to you (or when you build a city, or befriend a city state, or build a mine, or research a tech, or take a deep breath) than it was before. That isn't any harder to program. The hard part in both cases is determining how it goes about achieving its goals, and secondarily is giving it the correct goal.

    This is not true actually. The Civics require the AI to consider them whenever they are able to change them. I would not at all be surprised if the AI's in civ 5 just have set 'SP order paths' where they get them in a certain order independant of game state. Well, or maybe it wiggles about a little depending on certain specific factors. Doing a passable job of that is easy, since they are all beneficial effects. Doing civics that have downsides is a lot harder. At any given time the AI needs to decide between hereditary rule vs representation. Which is better for it?

    So, I think you misunderstand. Look at units, and look at buildings that make units better. In virtually every situation it is not worth building those buildings because they aren't as effective as just having MORE UNITS. Whether or not the AI attacks doesn't change that. I'm not going to suddenly have buildings that provide wider areas of effect (instead of just one of: Culture, happiness, gold, science, xp, production speed, food).

    Also, considering that military victories are the easiest kind in this game, making them harder to get, or making other AI's more of a militant threat, doesn't help that. It just means you focus EVEN MORE on pumping out units.
     
  9. masterminded

    masterminded Chieftain

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    Zechnophobe, while I think that you are correct in the argument that the choices are not there, I think that focusing on certain categories in isolation isn't the best way to examine the issue, which is to consider how these elements come together in the metagame. It seems to me that options for the player remain, but there is always an optimal path because the metagame encourages narrow strategies to victory.

    Take cultural victories, for instance. In Civ IV, there were multiple paths to it through religion, wonders, etc. The player could shift to these strategies quite nimbly. Civ V presents a narrow road to cultural victories: build only a few cities because social policy costs do not scale well with empire size, build the right wonders, focus on a handful of buildings, pick the right social policies, etc. This requires that players begin the game with the intent to win a cultural victory for optimal results. Shifting to this later in the game is much more difficult given the constraints. In turn, this leads to restricted gameplay. Sure, the player can deviate from this strategy somewhat by trying to do other things, but this approach is suboptimal. The incentive remains to follow the a very structured road to victory, which eliminates viable interesting choices and instead presents the player with the illusion of choice.
     
  10. Zechnophobe

    Zechnophobe Strategy Lich

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    This is a pretty good point. You could build Temples and cathedrals for the happiness boost they give, and then realize you have a lot of them, and decide to get cultural victory by doing it more so. Or perhaps in spreading your religion to allies in hopes of better relations, you notice you have a chance to win via the Apostalic Palace.

    It really is a long lonely road to achieve cultural victory in 5. Is.. is that a tumbleweed over there? oh dear.
     
  11. Stefanskantine

    Stefanskantine Angry Partisan

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    I think you may be misunderstanding my point. No one is arguing that the two systems are similar simply because Stalin and, say, Nicholas I just *happened* to be cruel autocrats. Rather, the argument is that there is something inherent in Russian culture which favors, and gives rise to, centralization and autocracy. You can disagree if you want to, but I am not the only person making such an argument. The St. Petersburg Times editorial I linked previously indicated support for Monarchism being alive today in Russia. Here is BBC story citing polls which in various ways indicate that Russians tend to prefer centralization and autocracy: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8311189.stm

    You seem to argue that the two are inherently different because of petty distinctions like State Orthodox Christianity versus State Atheism. But ask yourself, what is the truly important core of those official doctrines? The Christianity/Atheism part, or the State part? The content of the doctrines are unimportant, they are merely tools for centralizing power.

    And your argument that the two were clearly different because one had cavalry and peasants, while the other had a human wave and factories just doesn't ring true to me. It sounds too much like a simplified middle school textbook. Of course the technological tools available to society change over time. Are you suggesting that a Monarchy can *only* make use of peasants and cavalry, and as soon as it upgrades its technological infrastructure it must immediately lose all monarchic traits? That doesn't make much sense to me. If you're correct, it must be good for meddlesome international powers like the US to know that if they don't like tribal/feudal warlordism in say Afghanistan or Somalia, then they can automatically modernize their governments simply by arming them with modern weapons. Oh wait...

    Finally, I am not arguing that Stalin and other USSR leaders were *exactly* like the Tsardom. I am merely arguing that certain cultural elements that came about during the Tsardom persisted and could be observed during Communism, and in fact persist to this day.
     
  12. jacyp

    jacyp Winter Lover

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    A brilliant reading of what people seem to be wanting to say, but are expressing it in a lot of wrong ways.

    I've been trying to say what you just said yourself, but so far I couldn't explain it as you did. Kudos.

    I think the game can be reworked to fix this illusion so it can be a reality of choice, but unfortunately it seems too late to rework the game in this manner. Let's hope a MOD does that, or perharps an expansion?

    Cheers.

    Edit: just an addedum - dispite my disappointement expressed above, I still find that if the game becomes balanced, with an improved AI and bug free, it will be a good and enjoyable game.
     
  13. eviltypeguy

    eviltypeguy Warlord

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    So when will you stop posting? :lol:

    Since I've never played the name game or insulted other forum members with that term, I assume you're talking about others who have. So, in that case, I agree; please tell them to stop.
     
  14. masterminded

    masterminded Chieftain

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    I'm hoping for mods to make the game more worthwhile. In order to give the player the flexibility to change strategies, too many systems would have to be extensively reworked otherwise. I've never changes on the scale needed in a previous civ expansion.
     
  15. eviltypeguy

    eviltypeguy Warlord

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    Finally, a clear posting I can agree with! :lol:

    But seriously, you're doing just fine; it's the others who keep trying to pretend that "all civ fans" or that they are the only "true civ fans" that I feel are being disingenuous.

    That's all I'm asking; for others to stop trying to pretend that the people who don't like the game are the only "true fans".
     
  16. Ayt

    Ayt Warlord

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    We don't agree.
     
  17. Gismo

    Gismo Chieftain

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    I feel so utterly betrayed... If they had stated this before release, I definitely had not bought it. :(

    I'm back to Civ4 and I don't think I'll buy any expansion for Civ5 ever...
     
  18. UKScud

    UKScud Warlord

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    You have it spot on...

    ...and I feel cheated. If I had known beforehand that Civ5 was going to be for casual gamers I would certainly not have bought it. But they have my money now...are they going to get any more of it...HELL NO!

    The only saving grace is that it is moddable...but I didn't set out to buy a set of game building tools. I spent my hard earned money expecting a complex strategy game built on the reputation that Firaxis used to have.

    Have they made a profit...no, not in the long run as they've spent their reputation.
     
  19. fantsu

    fantsu Prince

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    Don't want to go into the same old debate: IV or V, again...

    But one thing about this interview:

    This guy is an idiot. He attacks against British people. I'm not even British, but that guy annoys me. He is an racist a-hole. :mad:
     
  20. Öjevind Lång

    Öjevind Lång Deity

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    He's trying to SHIRK the real issue. Hur hur hur.
     

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