Jabie
Wanted in Monte Carlo...
Repatched to M and got CtD.
Into the Desert feedback
- Thread starter Kael
- Start date
Jabie
Wanted in Monte Carlo...
Patch N fixes this bug.
Jabie
Wanted in Monte Carlo...
Completed this scenario as Malakim. Here's my feedback:
1. I'd drop the number of Sand Lions at the start of the scenario to one and/or give a warning about them in the flavour text.
2. I somehow managed to miss the Mirror completely and didn't find it until quite some time into the game. (My own fault I skipped the key word "East" in the flavour text) During my travels I sprung a zealot from a dungeon and got him all the way back to my capital before I received the found Empyrean quest. I think this Dungeon Event needs to be removed from this scenario.
3. Because I missed the Mirror for quite a while the Elohim founded Runes of Kilmorph! By the end of the game, I got my modifier with them up in the +20 to +30 range, spread Empyrean in their lands, built temples for them and they still refused to switch religion through diplomacy.
4. You can't build Ecclesiast units to spread your religion til you found the Order tech. The red quest text ought to reflect this and state: "Research Order and Spread Empyrean in 75 turns"
5. Not a scenario (or even an FfH) issue but two general BtS issues:
* I missed the trade Territory Maps feature in Civ 3.
* I would love to chose what I pillaged. Specifically I wanted my mounted raiders to pillage the roads to prevent any kind of counterattack or reinforcement, but I was forever pillaging towns and mines instead.
1. I'd drop the number of Sand Lions at the start of the scenario to one and/or give a warning about them in the flavour text.
2. I somehow managed to miss the Mirror completely and didn't find it until quite some time into the game. (My own fault I skipped the key word "East" in the flavour text) During my travels I sprung a zealot from a dungeon and got him all the way back to my capital before I received the found Empyrean quest. I think this Dungeon Event needs to be removed from this scenario.
3. Because I missed the Mirror for quite a while the Elohim founded Runes of Kilmorph! By the end of the game, I got my modifier with them up in the +20 to +30 range, spread Empyrean in their lands, built temples for them and they still refused to switch religion through diplomacy.
4. You can't build Ecclesiast units to spread your religion til you found the Order tech. The red quest text ought to reflect this and state: "Research Order and Spread Empyrean in 75 turns"
5. Not a scenario (or even an FfH) issue but two general BtS issues:
* I missed the trade Territory Maps feature in Civ 3.
* I would love to chose what I pillaged. Specifically I wanted my mounted raiders to pillage the roads to prevent any kind of counterattack or reinforcement, but I was forever pillaging towns and mines instead.
I did the first thing too, I didn't remeber the direction too carefully and guessed West. Took a loooong time to find the mirror
As for the Order needed to build Ecclesiatics, that's a bug. I didn't notice it when I played though... I guess it got broken in a patch?
Yashkaf
King of my Castle
Calabim, Immortal, patch L.
My, my, what an annoying dissapointment. Details below.
1. I started the game focusing mainly on cottaging around Prespur and Nubia, with no military building whatsoever. I slowly hunted up an animal army with the two hunters, other than that my first vampire (renamed: "Beny") attached Decius and walked around the map wiping everyone out. It took me quite a while to find Dirage, by that time my forces consisted of two hasting adepts, two promoted hunters, a war elephant (Dumbo) and a 110xp Beny.
2. Took out Dirage with Dumbo and Beny as I was halfway through researching the AV founding tech. Since the point of the scenario is CoE, that was just hundreds of wasted beakers. There really should be a hint that you shouldn't found religions, like Flauros telling you "Focus on your strength, general. The right faith will show itself in good time."
3. "Weaken for 75 turns"?! Could you be any more cryptic? I got the point that I should harrass Kane and Varn with HN units, so I presumed war is not an option. Unfortunately, I wasn't close to being able to build any, so I started researching deception and bowyers to get Nightwatches, something that would of taken me about 74 of the 75 turns. Pissed off as I am already about wasting the beakers for AV, I get another surprise: Kane declares on me with a stack of 4 warriors and 2 lightbringers next to the newly built Acaia. I gift Alteration to Faeryl and Arthurus to declare on Kane as well (what do the Khazad need it for??) Within two turns, his stack is dust (I even upgraded a bear to CR3 on the poor buggers). Within 20 turns Kane capitulates with one city left. Faeryl has a big stack by now next to Varn, so the three of us declare on Varn and wipe him out within another 10 turns.
4. Aftermath: I still have 25 turns of weakening the Malakim who are down to one vassal city out of two empires. I wasted half my beakers on AV and Bowyers, completing neither. I gifted Bourne to Thorne and Faeryl got another of Varn's cities, both with Empy. I also control the Empyrean Timberling, and Ethne got Empy in Glens.
5. I sit around picking my nose for 25 turns waiting for the next objective.
6. I get the new goal, declare on Ethne and sit around picking my nose for 30 turns while she Sanctuaries.
7. At the end of the 30 turns I declare war on everybody and conquer the three cities with Empy within 1(!) turn with stacks of CR3 vampires.
Summary:
I understand the Decius line was written by Nikis-Knight, and the differences tell. While the storytelling is excellent (minus the typos here and there), the playability is pretty lousy. I played the scenario as close as possible to what the author intended I do and ended up:
1. Becoming easy tech leader after about 100 turns despite playing on Immortal and expecting a challenge.
2. Having the unit I started out with (the vampire) get to 160 xp despite never fighting under 97% odds, despite playing on Immortal and expecting a challenge.
3. Wasting hundreds of beakers on techs I never completed because of the objectives.
4. Having the civ I'm supposed to sneakily weaken declare war on me and get wiped out.
5. Having the other civ I'm supposed to sneakily weaken get wiped out.
6. Running out of nostrils to pick after 55 turns of SHIFT+ENTERING (except for auto-building vampires in every city).
7. Winning the game in one turn, having Decius run off to the other side of the world and discovering that "Wages of Sin" isn't out yet as of patch Q.
I hope I don't sound bitter, the scenario is actually quite good and interesting. However, if you put it contrast with the others (the Falamar line, Splintered Court..) it's quite dissapointing and pretty annoying. Like chasing a Hill Giant through a desert.
I hope I get better wages for my sins,
Yashkaf.
My, my, what an annoying dissapointment. Details below.
1. I started the game focusing mainly on cottaging around Prespur and Nubia, with no military building whatsoever. I slowly hunted up an animal army with the two hunters, other than that my first vampire (renamed: "Beny") attached Decius and walked around the map wiping everyone out. It took me quite a while to find Dirage, by that time my forces consisted of two hasting adepts, two promoted hunters, a war elephant (Dumbo) and a 110xp Beny.
2. Took out Dirage with Dumbo and Beny as I was halfway through researching the AV founding tech. Since the point of the scenario is CoE, that was just hundreds of wasted beakers. There really should be a hint that you shouldn't found religions, like Flauros telling you "Focus on your strength, general. The right faith will show itself in good time."
3. "Weaken for 75 turns"?! Could you be any more cryptic? I got the point that I should harrass Kane and Varn with HN units, so I presumed war is not an option. Unfortunately, I wasn't close to being able to build any, so I started researching deception and bowyers to get Nightwatches, something that would of taken me about 74 of the 75 turns. Pissed off as I am already about wasting the beakers for AV, I get another surprise: Kane declares on me with a stack of 4 warriors and 2 lightbringers next to the newly built Acaia. I gift Alteration to Faeryl and Arthurus to declare on Kane as well (what do the Khazad need it for??) Within two turns, his stack is dust (I even upgraded a bear to CR3 on the poor buggers). Within 20 turns Kane capitulates with one city left. Faeryl has a big stack by now next to Varn, so the three of us declare on Varn and wipe him out within another 10 turns.
4. Aftermath: I still have 25 turns of weakening the Malakim who are down to one vassal city out of two empires. I wasted half my beakers on AV and Bowyers, completing neither. I gifted Bourne to Thorne and Faeryl got another of Varn's cities, both with Empy. I also control the Empyrean Timberling, and Ethne got Empy in Glens.
5. I sit around picking my nose for 25 turns waiting for the next objective.
6. I get the new goal, declare on Ethne and sit around picking my nose for 30 turns while she Sanctuaries.
7. At the end of the 30 turns I declare war on everybody and conquer the three cities with Empy within 1(!) turn with stacks of CR3 vampires.
Summary:
I understand the Decius line was written by Nikis-Knight, and the differences tell. While the storytelling is excellent (minus the typos here and there), the playability is pretty lousy. I played the scenario as close as possible to what the author intended I do and ended up:
1. Becoming easy tech leader after about 100 turns despite playing on Immortal and expecting a challenge.
2. Having the unit I started out with (the vampire) get to 160 xp despite never fighting under 97% odds, despite playing on Immortal and expecting a challenge.
3. Wasting hundreds of beakers on techs I never completed because of the objectives.
4. Having the civ I'm supposed to sneakily weaken declare war on me and get wiped out.
5. Having the other civ I'm supposed to sneakily weaken get wiped out.
6. Running out of nostrils to pick after 55 turns of SHIFT+ENTERING (except for auto-building vampires in every city).
7. Winning the game in one turn, having Decius run off to the other side of the world and discovering that "Wages of Sin" isn't out yet as of patch Q.
I hope I don't sound bitter, the scenario is actually quite good and interesting. However, if you put it contrast with the others (the Falamar line, Splintered Court..) it's quite dissapointing and pretty annoying. Like chasing a Hill Giant through a desert.
I hope I get better wages for my sins,
Yashkaf.
mondits
Chieftain
Played this as Decius and it was the first time I play with vampires and I thought the scenario was pretty good but once I got a stack of Morois and couple feasting vampires going, it was pretty much conquest (destroy all Empyrean cities) which in my case was everyone. Go figure that out. The Counci is pretty intersting but I thought I was supposed to have hidden nationality assassins? I did not. How do you get them? Can you ever?
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
Assassins with the Council of Esus religion (there is a 20% chance that a unit will adopt each religion present in the city that built it) have access to the Mask spell, which grants HN.
Nikis-Knight
Deity
@Yashkaf; I can see why the Elohim world spell would be annoying, I'm sorry I had forgotten that. Maybe they can be denied it for one scenario? I'll ask.
I think the plan is to put in some penalty for out-right declaring war prior to the event where Decius insists on it, such as having your vampires abandon you if you disobey. What I envisioned at this point was the player spreading the Council of Esus and using HN units to pick off Varn's missionaries & workers before they could spread religion to Kane; I can see how this might prove tedious after 75 turns; do you have a better idea for a trigger?
I think the plan is to put in some penalty for out-right declaring war prior to the event where Decius insists on it, such as having your vampires abandon you if you disobey. What I envisioned at this point was the player spreading the Council of Esus and using HN units to pick off Varn's missionaries & workers before they could spread religion to Kane; I can see how this might prove tedious after 75 turns; do you have a better idea for a trigger?
Yes, I'll see if that's possible.
Nikis-Knight
Deity
Please tell me you meant that you needed the Empyrean tech honor, not the Orders from Heaven tech?
Then there's war.
Jabie
Wanted in Monte Carlo...
Mae Culpa. I should have written Honour, not Orders from Heavens, but the problem still remains. The tech requirement either needs to be spelt out, unrestricted for the purposes of building disciple units you should receive the tech and get on with the business in hand. My personal preference is for free tech, as it makes sense in story terms.
Also, although I didn't try it, cos I don't have time, the game asks for a Religious Victory. What happens if you found some other religion and win a Religious Victory as, say AV or OO? Maybe the other religions could be turned off for the Malakim in this scenario and the other Civs could be prevented from researching Honour until you have it (to prevent the unlikely chance that they found Empyrean by accident)
Love
Deity
Dirage had 5 barbarian archers, plus that hill giant which makes it impassable to raze
Yashkaf
King of my Castle
Nikis-Knight, you're right. It would be more useful if I came up with suggestions instead of just being annoyed, so I'll try my best:
Early Game
I started focusing on economy because of the way the scenario felt: I have two cities easily defended by archers, both in prime locations for economy with a gold mine and beautiful riverside locations for cottages. The objective of raizing a barb city just doesn't seem that urgent, especially since I have only one good unit and it takes a while to level up. My only neighbor is Kane, who is very weak, slow teching and poses no threat whatsoever. I don't focus on military or expansion because I face no threats and have no settlers. If the point is to bang out a couple of moroi and rush Dirage, I would change the gold mine to copper and make the cities more production oriented, and I would add the barbarians as a significant threat: probably a couple of auto-razing barbarian cities on the way to Dirage that would send warriors harrassing you through Kane's lands. That would present more of a challenge, and give a point to the whole exercise: what does Flauros care about a couple of drunk hill giants wandering around the desert miles from his cities? If you managed to fight through the barbs on the way and get Dirage, an event could happen that would eliminate the other barbs as a threat, either by reducing their aggresiveness or just taking them off the map.
Tech Lead
Again, that could be solved by making you focus on early military, and improving the starting locations of the Khazad and Svarts economically (toss'em a couple of gold mines/plantations sites).
The Big Weakening
First of all, I assume the point is to get at Varn, not Kane? I would make Kane agnostic, which would leave him as a side player in the show. It would discourage religion spreading to his cities and you can also change the final objective to not include Kane's cities, as well as your own.
The first thing you need to do is make the objective clear, to make people understand that they should harrass Varn for 75 turns without declaring. How about a defensive pact between Varn, Ethne, Kane and Arthurus for 75 turns? That would make a player think twice about just wiping them off the map one by one.
The second thing is to give the player the tools to do so. I would simply eliminate all religions but RoK for the Khazad, Empy and CoE from the game. What's the point of getting AV and fighting Ethne's confessors in a Coe vs. Empy plotline? Also, to have the ability to harrass properly, a plyer should either be given Deception+Bowyers or just spawn a nightwatch every 7-8 turns in Prespur. Researching both takes around 75 turns, and waiting for every fifth assassin to be HN is pointless.
If the player focused the early game on breaking through the barbs to get Dirage, this should a time of building up the economy and teching, which is why a free (but slow) supply of nightwatchmen would be my preferred solution.
Beakers Wasted, Unclear Objectives
Again, let Flauros explain. You don't to spell everything out for the players, but they need to get the idea. I would give some lines along: "Don't worry about religions, friend, in the desert the strength of your sword arm is more important than that the strength of your faith. The right path will show itself in due time." After Dirage is smokin', perhaps: "Now isn't the time to go after the Malakim directly, the other peoples here won't like that. However, remember that the friends of the Dark Council have other means at their disposal, of a more clandestine nature. Don't worry though, general, I know you thirst for war. The time for resolution by arms will come eventually, as it must."
Wow, I used "clandestine" in a sentence. I didn't even know I knew it.
Endspiel, unit balance
Really, vampires against archers and axemen is a bloody slaughter. What's the point of fighting the Empyrean if there's nary a radiant guard to be seen? I would eliminate the first vampire you get as he's easy to turn into a monster and he's twice as strong as any other unit in any point in time. The first fight should be with stacks of moroi, hunters and captured animals (though really, elephants in the desert?) against hill giants and archers. Why is Decius . .. .. .. .. .ing about lousy troops if he gets a vampire while others have warriors? The end game should be about vampires versus Empy units. Either give tha AIs Honor through an event or just gift them some Empy units when the objective hits. Also, while subverting Faeryl to your cause is easy and logical, I see no reason why Ethne should be stomped by hordes of Dwarven Axemen. Not to be too restrictive, giving the Khazad a +8 to relations with the good guys (like Varn has -11 with you) would at least make them less likely to jump in the evil boat.
All in all, the scenarion has a geat story, but it doesn't feel that way. You should get the feeling of starting out as lonely evil guys in a hostile environment, then sneaky plotters, and then a religious war. To me the scenario was like the war in Iraq, happily leading a coalition of guys from around the world on a military exercise to exterminate some backwards fools living in the desert having their way with camels.
Early Game
I started focusing on economy because of the way the scenario felt: I have two cities easily defended by archers, both in prime locations for economy with a gold mine and beautiful riverside locations for cottages. The objective of raizing a barb city just doesn't seem that urgent, especially since I have only one good unit and it takes a while to level up. My only neighbor is Kane, who is very weak, slow teching and poses no threat whatsoever. I don't focus on military or expansion because I face no threats and have no settlers. If the point is to bang out a couple of moroi and rush Dirage, I would change the gold mine to copper and make the cities more production oriented, and I would add the barbarians as a significant threat: probably a couple of auto-razing barbarian cities on the way to Dirage that would send warriors harrassing you through Kane's lands. That would present more of a challenge, and give a point to the whole exercise: what does Flauros care about a couple of drunk hill giants wandering around the desert miles from his cities? If you managed to fight through the barbs on the way and get Dirage, an event could happen that would eliminate the other barbs as a threat, either by reducing their aggresiveness or just taking them off the map.
Tech Lead
Again, that could be solved by making you focus on early military, and improving the starting locations of the Khazad and Svarts economically (toss'em a couple of gold mines/plantations sites).
The Big Weakening
First of all, I assume the point is to get at Varn, not Kane? I would make Kane agnostic, which would leave him as a side player in the show. It would discourage religion spreading to his cities and you can also change the final objective to not include Kane's cities, as well as your own.
The first thing you need to do is make the objective clear, to make people understand that they should harrass Varn for 75 turns without declaring. How about a defensive pact between Varn, Ethne, Kane and Arthurus for 75 turns? That would make a player think twice about just wiping them off the map one by one.
The second thing is to give the player the tools to do so. I would simply eliminate all religions but RoK for the Khazad, Empy and CoE from the game. What's the point of getting AV and fighting Ethne's confessors in a Coe vs. Empy plotline? Also, to have the ability to harrass properly, a plyer should either be given Deception+Bowyers or just spawn a nightwatch every 7-8 turns in Prespur. Researching both takes around 75 turns, and waiting for every fifth assassin to be HN is pointless.
If the player focused the early game on breaking through the barbs to get Dirage, this should a time of building up the economy and teching, which is why a free (but slow) supply of nightwatchmen would be my preferred solution.
Beakers Wasted, Unclear Objectives
Again, let Flauros explain. You don't to spell everything out for the players, but they need to get the idea. I would give some lines along: "Don't worry about religions, friend, in the desert the strength of your sword arm is more important than that the strength of your faith. The right path will show itself in due time." After Dirage is smokin', perhaps: "Now isn't the time to go after the Malakim directly, the other peoples here won't like that. However, remember that the friends of the Dark Council have other means at their disposal, of a more clandestine nature. Don't worry though, general, I know you thirst for war. The time for resolution by arms will come eventually, as it must."
Wow, I used "clandestine" in a sentence. I didn't even know I knew it.
Endspiel, unit balance
Really, vampires against archers and axemen is a bloody slaughter. What's the point of fighting the Empyrean if there's nary a radiant guard to be seen? I would eliminate the first vampire you get as he's easy to turn into a monster and he's twice as strong as any other unit in any point in time. The first fight should be with stacks of moroi, hunters and captured animals (though really, elephants in the desert?) against hill giants and archers. Why is Decius . .. .. .. .. .ing about lousy troops if he gets a vampire while others have warriors? The end game should be about vampires versus Empy units. Either give tha AIs Honor through an event or just gift them some Empy units when the objective hits. Also, while subverting Faeryl to your cause is easy and logical, I see no reason why Ethne should be stomped by hordes of Dwarven Axemen. Not to be too restrictive, giving the Khazad a +8 to relations with the good guys (like Varn has -11 with you) would at least make them less likely to jump in the evil boat.
All in all, the scenarion has a geat story, but it doesn't feel that way. You should get the feeling of starting out as lonely evil guys in a hostile environment, then sneaky plotters, and then a religious war. To me the scenario was like the war in Iraq, happily leading a coalition of guys from around the world on a military exercise to exterminate some backwards fools living in the desert having their way with camels.
Love
Deity
Its pretty easy to spread CoE to all kanes and ethnes cities, just if you have open borders send declared nationality nightwatch along with vampire and haste them to it.
I don't think he's talking about the open borders situation, in which case you could just drop a couple of 'Hawks of Esus' on people, instead of wasting all that time running around with nightwatch and vampires. He's talking about situations in which you spread the religion in a recondite way.
Nikis-Knight
Deity
To be fair, that's what I was going for with this:
But I didn't have anything along the lines of:
I was trying to leave these things open for the player to decide, but you are right that there are some options that are clearly less helpful and advice regarding tech options, when I have a particular strategy in mind, is vital. I will request an event like the following to trigger on turn 2 or something:
That's an excellent idea.
I wanted to make sure the player got to use the distinct/fun Calabim units, and it is comprable to Malakim getting a camel archer... until you feast with it, I guess. Perhaps a Moroi with the vampire promotion? That would also fit the story better, as the aristocrats don't favor Decius until he proves himself.
Love
Deity
In my game varn had defensive pact with Ethne and kane, they was pleased to me even but they were at war with me 
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
In my last game I got a weird bug that I think I had gotten once or twice in this scenario right after it was first released. I started up a Calabim game directly from the file (not using the scenario screen), and found that I started with no cities or units, only a few tiles of territory. I did not get this problem when I started over.
Nikis-Knight
Deity
That sounds like the bug due to random resoures placed under a city, but this doesn't use random resources and that bug was fixed! 
Yashkaf
King of my Castle
Just to remark, I think that spelling out the techs by name (Feudalism, Deception..) doesn't seem quite in good taste. Decius doesn't know he's in a PC game. If a player realizes he plays with a vampire civ but doesn't know which tech gets them, he needs a couple of hours on the can with Xienwolf's manual printed out more than a line of text to help him. Hey, we've all been new to this. Also, saying things like "he decided that.." makes it seem final, and not a mere suggestion. I switched from AV because I wanted to roleplay into the story. If a dude likes flamethrowers (sorry, "ritualists") he should be able to enjoy the scenario too.
With that said, I'll leave the rest of the writing to the actual writer among us and wait patiently in my corner for "Wages of Sin" to come out.
