Investigation Thread ~ The People vs Chieftess

[Cyc]

Just to note, mods have been president in the past (Remember DG2?).

You're right, Shaitan was a President in DG3, but I would not dare compare his playing style to yours, CT. He was a Master. If you are referring to yourself, I've already mentioned how you neglected Governor's Instructions in DG2. That's why you were convicted by the people in 3 PIs/CCs. You broke the rules and paid the price.

Something like this happens everytime this type of scenario unfolds...

Yes, as I just said, when you break the rules for your own personal satisfaction, you pay the price.

and the conspiracy theories start flying...

Seems to me you're the only one being charged with a crime, CT. Has someone else been charged? You just like to type that word, huh.

 

[ravensfire]

Please, Cyc and CT, let's keep this focused on the CC in question?

There's a fair amount of emotion as it is - let's stick with the facts!

-- Ravensfire

 

[Cyc]

Works for me, Ravensfire. I should realize who I'm dealing with. Let's look at GA's post.

Cyc, can you please see those times of the screenshots?

The poll of 8-7 says "4:33 pm", however CT's post at "turnchat time" was 12:01 (deadline for instructions). And Rik's post at 12:02, *after the tcit was "closed", said "7-6". That means, that when CT posted, and got the results for the poll, it was 6-6, a tie.

So...what did she do wrong?



Fyi: I do make mistakes reading and interpreting the Constitution and CoL and whatever laws we have - so maybe I misread something, in that case, if I did, sorry.

The formatting of the charges is not a professional job. Black_Hole did the best he could. You might be seeing the different time zones on the transfer of info. I don't know, I don't have to look back to know everything he posted is true.

The Culture poll, although the DP handled that wrong too, is just a catalyst to the main crime. Indeed, without the poll, there wouldn't have been a reason to change production. But because CT decided that Wonders were now out the window, she should have made the changes that she was Instructed to do. She didn't. In fact, in the Chat Log CT stated to the participants that both Fanatikku and Zojoji were changed to Swordsman, which was not true. She had switched Fanatikku to a Colosseum, as shown in the pre-turn save. Now ask yourself, if the Instructions were so baffling and confusing, how did CT know to change Fanatikku to a Colosseum?

 

[Chieftess]

You're right, Shaitan was a President in DG3, but I would not dare compare his playing style to yours, CT. He was a Master. If you are referring to yourself, I've already mentioned how you neglected Governor's Instructions in DG2. That's why you were convicted by the people in 3 PIs/CCs. You broke the rules and paid the price.

Yes, as I just said, when you break the rules for your own personal satisfaction, you pay the price.


Seems to me you're the only one being charged with a crime, CT. Has someone else been charged? You just like to type that word, huh.

So now it's a requirement for everyone to play to your expectations?

BTW, the only reason I knew about the 2nd colloseum is because I read about it a bit in the forums, and some mentioned it in #civfanatics when we were talking about the demogame. And why do you think I'm "breaking the rules for my own satisfaction" as if I'm doing them on purpose?

Think about it. Had I wanted to do that, I would've totally ignored the city builds that we did, and other stuff.

 

[Strider]

Once again... troll thread.

I'll repeat again, this is pointless, in the occurance that CT did happen to see the change in the vote, the poll was still only 6-6 at the start of the turnchat.

In my view, polls are not to be considered legal instructions. Not only are the misleading, they also cause confusion and this crap. None of this "per the result of this poll" crap, and I can list several reasons why, but I'm not going to waste my time on this pointless crap unless I really have to.

Posted by Cyc
Seems to me you're the only one being charged with a crime, CT. Has someone else been charged? You just like to type that word, huh.

Are you sure about that? Post reported, trolling, flaming, and insulting another user.

 

[Cyc]

1. I never said anyone had to play to my standards or expectations. I don't know where you get that from.

2. Strider??? What are you talking about now? Chieftess is the one who has been insulting me. She has used the words Conspiracy and paranoid in almost evry post she has directed at me. Please, as Ravensfire has suggested, let's keep on topic. Whether you think this CC is worthless crap or not doesn't belong here. Whether you think CT is guilty of the charges does. Keep it civil.

 

[Black_Hole]

hmmm i might have messed up some of the dates because of my timezone... not really shur what i could do ga....

 

[Black_Hole]

So now it's a requirement for everyone to play to your expectations?

BTW, the only reason I knew about the 2nd colloseum is because I read about it a bit in the forums, and some mentioned it in #civfanatics when we were talking about the demogame. And why do you think I'm "breaking the rules for my own satisfaction" as if I'm doing them on purpose?

Think about it. Had I wanted to do that, I would've totally ignored the city builds that we did, and other stuff.

which would have launched a larger cc, and it would have been harder to hide
ct i believe(as cyc posted), you had a conversation with regentman about it, that should be enough to know

 

[Ginger_Ale]

Yep, I was just curious about this. @Cyc: I don't know how - I wasn't present, I didn't look at the preturn save - what do you want me to say?

And everytime there is a CC...it turns into an argument...

 

[Black_Hole]

Yep, I was just curious about this. @Cyc: I don't know how - I wasn't present, I didn't look at the preturn save - what do you want me to say?

And everytime there is a CC...it turns into an argument...

well its basically a court case, have you seen courtrooms ever be calm?

 

[Chieftess]

1. I never said anyone had to play to my standards or expectations. I don't know where you get that from.

2. Strider??? What are you talking about now? Chieftess is the one who has been insulting me. She has used the words Conspiracy and paranoid in almost evry post she has directed at me. Please, as Ravensfire has suggested, let's keep on topic. Whether you think this CC is worthless crap or not doesn't belong here. Whether you think CT is guilty of the charges does. Keep it civil.

I haven't been insulting you. It's the other way around. You just need to calm down...

 

[Strider]

Two questions for us to answer.

1 - What was the correct, legal instruction at the time the turn chat began.

2 - Did the DP follow those instructions.

From the evidence presented thus far, the poll was tied 6-6, at the start of the turn chat. Note the screenshot w/ the post by CT commenting on the poll being tied at the start of the turn chat. No attempt appears to have been made to determine the preference of the leader or deputy leader to break the tie. CT broke the tie as President and DP. Her vote, based the poll options, was to stop the prebuilds in both cities. Looking at the public poll breakdown, the acting provincial leader preferred to continue the prebuild in Zojoji only, as demonstrated by his vote.

My answer to question 1 is that the legal instruction for the city of Zojoji was to continue building the prebuild, using the acting provincial leader's preference to break the tie.

As a side note, even should we determine that the DP, and DP alone could break the tie, and ignore the acting provincial leader's preference, they could only choose amongst the poll options, in this case, cancel both prebuilds.

The instructions for Zojoji clearly stated that if the pre-build was cancelled to change to a Colloseum, and queue up Swordsmen.

The second question is much simpler to answer. The DP did not follow the legal instructions. The pre-build is not being built anymore, nor is a colloseum built in Zojoji.

Quite honestly, any reasons or excuse for why an instruction was not followed belongs in a penalty discussion, not in a fault discussion. I believe that the DP ignored the instructions of the leader to follow her preference. The leader clearly did plan for both situations in his instructions. These were not followed.

-- Ravensfire

EDIT: Changed "two" to "to" in intro sentance

The preference of the leader can not and should not be decided by a leaders vote on a subject. Why? Thing's change, unluckily a vote you made several days ago does not. Unless it was specifically in that leaders instructions that in the result of a tie, the pre-build is to be continued, it shouldn't matter.

So... my answer to question 1:

As the leader did not state a preference (understandably so), CT was well within her rights to break the tie.

Question 2:

The instructions were followed, the instructions were to do the result of that poll, and the result was to end both pre-builds.

 

[Black_Hole]

The preference of the leader can not and should not be decided by a leaders vote on a subject. Why? Thing's change, unluckily a vote you made several days ago does not. Unless it was specifically in that leaders instructions that in the result of a tie, the pre-build is to be continued, it shouldn't matter.

So... my answer to question 1:

As the leader did not state a preference (understandably so), CT was well within her rights to break the tie.

Question 2:

The instructions were followed, the instructions were to do the result of that poll, and the result was to end both pre-builds.

1.
strider he did have a preference!

Great Lighthouse Pre-build (If the above poll changes before the chat, change this to a colosseum (Mayor Cyc's preference))

basically
2. she didnt follow the primary instructions(should have been followed) or the alternate instructions

 

[ravensfire]

Strider,

Continue reading my arguement. Assuming your position is correct, CT could then break the tie in the poll - cancel 1 pre-build, or cancel both prebuilds.

The posted instructions covered both possibilities for Zojoji. These instructions were not followed. The exact instructions have been posted in this thread as evidence.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Civanator]

Technically, she would have to change to a Coloseum no matter how the poll went, because the instructions only said that you cancel the prebuild if the poll changes, not which way it changes to.

But she is at fault by not changing to a Coloseum. Personally, this is trivial as the city isn't in riot right now, but she didn't follow the instructions. It may just have been human error, it could have been deliberate. What ever it was, Chieftess did not follow the instructions. But then again what can we do about it? The CC was filed in Term 2 and Term 3 is just coming up, so you can't kick her out of office as she is already back in office for Term 3, whcih begins Friday.

 

[Black_Hole]

Technically, she would have to change to a Coloseum no matter how the poll went, because the instructions only said that you cancel the prebuild if the poll changes, not which way it changes to.

But she is at fault by not changing to a Coloseum. Personally, this is trivial as the city isn't in riot right now, but she didn't follow the instructions. It may just have been human error, it could have been deliberate. What ever it was, Chieftess did not follow the instructions. But then again what can we do about it? The CC was filed in Term 2 and Term 3 is just coming up, so you can't kick her out of office as she is already back in office for Term 3, whcih begins Friday.

ahem civanator:

Great Lighthouse Pre-build (If the above poll changes before the chat, change this to a colosseum (Mayor Cyc's preference))

it says change to colloseum if the poll changes, it does NOT say keep prebuild if poll changes

 

[Furiey]

As Ravensfire said there are 2 questions to be answered:

1 - What was the correct, legal instruction at the time the turn chat began.
2 - Did the DP follow those instructions.

The answers to these questions should be based on the law and known fact, and kept separate from personal feelings, intentions (accidental or deliberate), and what would happen if guilt were found.

So – my thoughts:

Question 1. The poll stated it would be open until the start of the turnchat. It was still open beyond this point, and after the DP stated the 6-6 tie result, a further vote was cast with a post making it 7-6, followed sometime later by 2 further votes making it 8-7 for stopping both prebuilds.

Sniplefritz’s culture instruction were:

Pending on This poll we will either continue pre-builds or stop them by city. If any of the pre-builds are stopped, what they are changed to shall be chosen by RegentMan ,as I know he is in posting Zarnia's instuctions and has already begun discussion on this subject.

These do not mention what option to choose in the case of a tie, although as the minister in charge he could/would have the deciding vote, but that decision was not posted as part of the instruction.

At the time of the turnchat, the vote was therefore tied, with no deciding vote indicated, so what happens then? The DP has to decide. The DP can ask the chat goers and appropriate minister if they are in the chat for advice, but that is all. It is therefore the DP’s choice. So the DP broke the tie. But the DP should act in accordance with the will of the people, and another option in the poll which had some support, but not a lot, was to continue both prebuilds, so the number of people who wanted to continue the prebuild in Zojoji could be taken as the sum of both options! But this is going beyond what the instruction was, and the instruction did not give which option to follow in the event of a tie, and therefore although the choice may be debated, the DP broke the tie and chose an option to follow. That was to stop both prebuilds.

Question 2. No. Queues were given in the event of either option being followed. One option would continue the prebuilds, the other would result in a Coliseum in Zojoji. The prebuilds were stopped and there is no Coliseum in Zojoji, so whatever the interpretation of Question 1, the answer to Question 2 is no.

 

[Cyc]

Technically, in answer to Civ's post, RegentMan inferred that the poll showed "staying with the pre-builds" at the time of his posting. By "the poll changing" he meant if the then current leader in the poll were to change as the final result.

In Governor Zarn's absence, I am posting the queues. For reference, here is the pre-build poll, which shows Zojoji gaining support to build a wonder (as of this post).

Fanatikku
Colosseum (Will waste 29 shields)
Swordsman
Swordsman (Produce until end of chat)

Zojoji
Great Lighthouse Pre-build (If the above poll changes before the chat, change this to a colosseum (Mayor Cyc's preference))

 

[Sir Donald III]

The Culture poll, although the DP handled that wrong too, is just a catalyst to the main crime. Indeed, without the poll, there wouldn't have been a reason to change production.

Excuse me, Chief Justice. AND MEMBERS OF THE JURY! But after careful research, I beleive that this is untrue. The Culture Poll, to me, stands at the crux of the entire matter, and indeed where CT has violated a Minister's prerogative. If I may bring this up:

Majority Opinion ~ For the purposes of not having an impossibly deadlocked poll, it is within the power of the minister whose jurisdiction encompases the poll in question to break a tie.

Link to DG5JR9,

The initator of the Poll in question was not Governor Zarn of Zarnia, or his Deputy Regentman, but Culture Minister Snipelfritz. This is because it the two cities in question were making pre-builds for Wonders which are in the Culture Minister's Charge.

6. The Minister of Culture shall be responsible for the keeping of the peace and the construction of wonders.

Therefore, if there was any "preference" involved, it would've been Snipelfritz' rather than Zarn's or Regentman's.

Sniplefritz did not make any specification, either in the poll (by vote or contingency), or by contingency in the TCIT. However, if he was in the chat, he could've been consulted to break the tie.

So, let's see whther Snipelfritz was in the chat at the time of the instructions.

Start of #turnchat buffer: Sun Sep 26 15:24:47 2004
...[13:02] <!Chieftess> It's tied!
...
[13:06] * +snipelfritz is listening to Limozeen "Because it's
Midnite"

Now, by itself, we would not know whether Snipelfritz was in or not.

However, add the presence of these lines about an hour later...

[13:55] <+Epimethius> i'll e back for a bit in a few minutes
[13:55] * +Epimethius (jirc@3b87238b.2f2211d7.client.comcast.net)
Quit (Quit: Leaving)

...

[14:11] * SirDon3 (~jirc@3682fb09.1908d3ef.at.cox.net) has joined
#turnchat
[14:11] <+Furiey> hi SD3
[14:11] <SirDon3> And I thought that I woudn't be in today...
[14:11] * RikMeleet sets mode: +v SirDon3

..means that the Chatlog records when people arrive or depart.

Therefore, I can determine that Snipelfritz was in the chat at the time Chieftess broke the tie.

Again, the "Tie-Breaking":

[13:01] <+SaaMSAT> whats the prebuild poll result?
[13:02] <!Chieftess> It's tied!
[13:02] <+SaaMSAT> grr
[13:02] <!Chieftess> 6-6
[13:02] <+SaaMSAT> who gets to decide (if its you, i know how it
goes)
[13:02] <!Chieftess> And I've voting we need swords instead of a
giant spotlight
[13:02] * @RikMeleet is now Playing:4 Queen & David Bowie -
Pressure
[13:02] <!Chieftess> *yeah! Let's blind our enemies with a huge
spotlight!*
[13:03] <+Furiey> or put them under pressure with swords instead
[13:03] <@RikMeleet> I broke the tie ....
[13:03] <!Chieftess> yay!
[13:03] <@RikMeleet> CT: Tie is briken
[13:03] <@RikMeleet> ok

Minister Snipelfritz, who was present, and thusly would have authority by DG5JR9, was not consulted!
In fact, Chieftess did not have even the thought to consult anyone who could've had the preogative.


I hereby present this as Evidence:

From the 110 AD Turnchat on 22 September.

Start of #turnchat buffer: Wed Sep 22 20:19:02 2004...
[19:12] <!Chieftess> Looks like the French embassy poll passed
[19:12] <SirDon3> Yep.
[19:12] <SirDon3> Babs Failed.
[19:12] <SirDon3> And Zulu.... Tied...
[19:12] <!Chieftess> France is building a sword
[19:12] <!Chieftess> not anymore
[19:13] <!Chieftess> Screenie taken
[19:13] <+Ashburnham> it passed?
[19:13] <!Chieftess> will upload latter
[19:13] <!Chieftess> Zulu embassy failed
[19:13] <!Chieftess> 8-9
[19:13] * SirDon3 loves Chieftess

Now, this was while my instructions were being determined.

The FA Deputy posted a contingency instruction that said that only the French Embassy would be constructed. However, this instruction was not referenced in Chiefess' decision! Instead, she cast a tie-breaking vote during the turnchat.

While I persoanlly approved of the result, and the FA's instructions were in line with the final result, the fact remains that Chieftess directly broke the tie, without going through the proper channels.


In Sum, it is Chieftess' actions against Snipelfritz that, in my opinion, make her culpable.

 

[Ashburnham]

I think the only thing to say after ravensfire's post is: case closed.