Investigation Thread ~ The People vs Chieftess

You're right, SD3. As Black_Hole posted in his charge against CT, he stated:
The only way she could have gve against this, was if snipelfritz(who was present at the chat) broke the tie, and she did not give him the oppurtunity to do that.

So we know that she went against the known protocols, as you mentioned above, we know that she told everyone at the chat that both Fanatikku and Zojoji had been switched to a Swordsman (when only Zojoji was), we know she had a discussion about the changes to be made in Zarnia with Deputy-Governor RegentMan prior to the T/C and was aware that a Colosseum was to be built. We know all of these things, can see that CT switched Zojoji to a Swordsman, and still we argue that CT has not broken the Law according to Article D of the Constitution?

Basically you have agreed with my statement SD3. :D Good!
 
Ginger_Ale said:
I just have one question: why are we discussing this? What will happen to the DG because of CC1? ie; what do I (as a citizen - not judiciary) do??
nothing right now, the dg will stay here, even if we have a CC.
after most of the discussion is completed and atleast 48 hours have passed(its in the judical procedure) the judge advocate will post a sentencing poll(with options guilty, innocent, and abstain). if guilty wins then their will be a sentencing poll(for punishment)
 
Cyc: As an added bonus, please recall the portion beginning with "I hereby present this Evidence". This brings up a reference to a prior act (uncharged) which gives the JA (and you) a pattern of events (okay, 1 event).
 
Ginger_Ale,

Good question - and Black_Hole answered it nicely above. I would correct that statement, though, to note we have a judgement poll for Innocence vs Guilt, then the Sentencing poll. The options for sentencing are varied(look at the Judicial thread for the options) and range from No Punishment to Impeachment or Moderator Action.

For right now, view all the evidence and arguements with an open mind, and determine for yourself if CT has committed the act she is charged with. Remember, she is innocent unless proven guilty.

Regardless, this may be the first CC in DG5, but hardly the first in DG history.

-- Ravensfire
 
ravensfire said:
Ginger_Ale,

Good question - and Black_Hole answered it nicely above. I would correct that statement, though, to note we have a judgement poll for Innocence vs Guilt, then the Sentencing poll. The options for sentencing are varied(look at the Judicial thread for the options) and range from No Punishment to Impeachment or Moderator Action.

For right now, view all the evidence and arguements with an open mind, and determine for yourself if CT has committed the act she is charged with. Remember, she is innocent unless proven guilty.

Regardless, this may be the first CC in DG5, but hardly the first in DG history.

-- Ravensfire
yes, i believe last game the options were up to the judge advocate, but must include no punishment, warning, and refer to moderator... if i remember correctly
 
ravensfire said:
Strider,

Continue reading my arguement. Assuming your position is correct, CT could then break the tie in the poll - cancel 1 pre-build, or cancel both prebuilds.

The posted instructions covered both possibilities for Zojoji. These instructions were not followed. The exact instructions have been posted in this thread as evidence.

-- Ravensfire

Oh, don't worry... I read all of it... Assuming my poistion is correct? You seem to misunderstand that I don't believe polls are legal instructions. As such, it was CT's decision as there WERE no instructions, over the issue.

Do I need to make myself clearer? I'll be happy to wipe that bloodlust out of your eyes.
 
Black_Hole said:
1.
strider he did have a preference!

That was his preference, several days ago, as a CITIZEN. Your talking about a preference that was outdated and posted under his responsibility as a citizen of the DG. Doesn't count.

Black_Hole said:
basically
2. she didnt follow the primary instructions(should have been followed) or the alternate instructions

Once again, as I've said, I don't believe the instructions were legal. As such, there were no instructions to be followed.
 
Strider said:
Oh, don't worry... I read all of it... Assuming my poistion is correct? You seem to misunderstand that I don't believe polls are legal instructions. As such, it was CT's decision as there WERE no instructions, over the issue.

Do I need to make myself clearer? I'll be happy to wipe that bloodlust out of your eyes.

I think you need to consider Ravensfire's main point, Strider. He's saying let's consider your point of view as fact. OK. Let's do it. Polls are not legal Instructions, therefore it was CT's decision to halt the pre-builds or keep them. Ok, she decides to halt them. The Instructions were to switch both cities to a Colosseum if the Wonders were not to be continued. Is that a little clearer? I also see no bloodlust in Ravenfire's eyes...
 
Black hole, we must first wait for CT or I to enter a plea.

While I have discussed this matter with CT, i forgot to specify a plea, and CT never mentioned how she wanted to proceed. The best course of action is to wait for CT to either contact me or she can post the plea (guilty not guilty).

While we wait, I would just like to comment on how miserable this game is quickly becoming with everyone pointing fingers. So far it seems as if everyone has made this out to be some conspiracy of CT TO TAKE OVER THE GAME!! :eek: Also, from Cyc's responses it sounds like he has made this into a personal attack by CT against him. This is obviously not the case and would like everyone to remember that.
Everyone should also remember: This is a game. If we have a swordsman instead of a colluseum, what difference will we see 50 turns down the road? We are playing this game against ourselves, there is no competition from another site. No ranking of how everyone played the original save.

In sum, CT made a mistake. People accuse her of having a hidden agenda and such. Why cannot everyone get at least ONE mistake. Has CT made more of these "mistakes" to complete her OBVIOUS role of CIVILIZATION domination? No. Why would this theory stand.
Also, If CT did take over the game and run, we have copies of at least recent saves. Kick out CT. And start with a new DP from the latest save.
So ask yourself WHYYYY would anyone try to input a hidden agenda into a Civ game? This is a silly and frivolous accusation!
 
Cyc said:
I think you need to consider Ravensfire's main point, Strider. He's saying let's consider your point of view as fact. OK. Let's do it. Polls are not legal Instructions, therefore it was CT's decision to halt the pre-builds or keep them. Ok, she decides to halt them. The Instructions were to switch both cities to a Colosseum if the Wonders were not to be continued. Is that a little clearer? I also see no bloodlust in Ravenfire's eyes...

What instructions, oh your talking about the illegal ones? Ahh, I'm starting to see your point. :rolleyes:
 
Strider said:
What instructions, oh your talking about the illegal ones? Ahh, I'm starting to see your point. :rolleyes:
why are they illegal? doesnt it better define the wotp then a discussion,
[reaching far]
wait, doesnt it better represent the wotp then one person(the dp) deciding for themselves?
[/reaching far]
with only 3 day between tcs we have to use polls that go unti the tc starts
 
Strider said:
What instructions, oh your talking about the illegal ones? Ahh, I'm starting to see your point. :rolleyes:

Ahh good - 'cause I'm still waiting to see your point. :crazyeye:

-- Ravensfire
 
ravensfire said:
Ahh good - 'cause I'm still waiting to see your point. :crazyeye:

-- Ravensfire

My point is? Before the case can continue we must have a judicial review over wether the instructions were illegal and if so, wether CT was in her rights to change the vote.
 
KCCrusader said:
Black hole, we must first wait for CT or I to enter a plea.

While I have discussed this matter with CT, i forgot to specify a plea, and CT never mentioned how she wanted to proceed. The best course of action is to wait for CT to either contact me or she can post the plea (guilty not guilty).

While we wait, I would just like to comment on how miserable this game is quickly becoming with everyone pointing fingers. So far it seems as if everyone has made this out to be some conspiracy of CT TO TAKE OVER THE GAME!! :eek: Also, from Cyc's responses it sounds like he has made this into a personal attack by CT against him. This is obviously not the case and would like everyone to remember that.
Everyone should also remember: This is a game. If we have a swordsman instead of a colluseum, what difference will we see 50 turns down the road? We are playing this game against ourselves, there is no competition from another site. No ranking of how everyone played the original save.

In sum, CT made a mistake. People accuse her of having a hidden agenda and such. Why cannot everyone get at least ONE mistake. Has CT made more of these "mistakes" to complete her OBVIOUS role of CIVILIZATION domination? No. Why would this theory stand.
Also, If CT did take over the game and run, we have copies of at least recent saves. Kick out CT. And start with a new DP from the latest save.
So ask yourself WHYYYY would anyone try to input a hidden agenda into a Civ game? This is a silly and frivolous accusation!

Yes, you're right KCCrusader. (I thought you'd never respond to my PM about this.) CT could end all this by pleading guilty to violating Article D of the Constitution.

But this game is not miserable. It is now focused on legal debate, yes. But that is a good thing to some. It is part of the Legal system we have developed and you seem to want to be a part of. :)

I know you have only been in the Demogame for a short while and this limits your experience in determining the ins and outs of the game. Some of us have been around since the begining and witnessed all aspects of the game, not just the legal end. There is much history and many different points of view to take into consideration before you claim to know the answer. :D
 
Strider said:
My point is? Before the case can continue we must have a judicial review over wether the instructions were illegal and if so, wether CT was in her rights to change the vote.
strider, I cannot understand your view on how polls arent legal instructions
 
Black_Hole said:
strider, I cannot understand your view on how polls arent legal instructions

1) It's impossible to tell the exact time a vote was made, it is quite possible for people to vote DURING the T/C, after the change was made, and there is no possible way to tell it.

For all we know, Rik Meleet might have made that vote 2 minutes BEFORE the T/C start, went and got a soda, came back and told CT he broke the tie and made the post in the thread. If this was the case, then CT did not actually break the tie, and she followed the instructions.

2) Unreliable, what if a forum outage occurs in the middle of a T/C? It's happened several times before. How is the DP suppose to look at a poll if the forum is down?

Also, I must ask that everyone make there decision by NOT basing it on the screenshots posted in this thread. Why? Simple enough, forgery.

I'll repeat this once again, this is pointless, it is just an attempt to discredit CT by showing you abunch of crap that proves nothing, and trying to make you think it actually means something.

There is no proof in this case that the tie was even broken after the start of the T/C.
 
Strider said:
1) It's impossible to tell the exact time a vote was made, it is quite possible for people to vote DURING the T/C, after the change was made, and there is no possible way to tell it.

For all we know, Rik Meleet might have made that vote 2 minutes BEFORE the T/C start, went and got a soda, came back and told CT he broke the tie and made the post in the thread. If this was the case, then CT did not actually break the tie, and she followed the instructions.

2) Unreliable, what if a forum outage occurs in the middle of a T/C? It's happened several times before. How is the DP suppose to look at a poll if the forum is down?

Also, I must ask that everyone make there decision by NOT basing it on the screenshots posted in this thread. Why? Simple enough, forgery.
i believe ct posted when she started the TC, and at that time it was 6-6
also number 2 : i dont think ct(or any dp) is gonna copy down all of the instructions, so that wont really matter either
 
Black_Hole said:
i believe ct posted when she started the TC, and at that time it was 6-6
also number 2 : i dont think ct(or any dp) is gonna copy down all of the instructions, so that wont really matter either

Still impossible to tell, you also have to take into consideration several factors.

1) Time differances (and I don't mean time zones), people clocks are differant, some might be 2 minutes ahead, some 2 minutes behind.

2) Did CT click on that poll 5, 10, 20 minutes ago and just didn't refresh when she said that? Was her statement the latest information? It's possible that CT clicked on the link, and just had the window up several minutes before saying that.

They don't need to copy down all of the instructions, once the turnchat thread is open, it's going to stay open even if the forums go down, she just can't refresh or going anywhere else.
 
ravensfire said:
Two questions for us to answer.

1 - What was the correct, legal instruction at the time the turn chat began.

2 - Did the DP follow those instructions.

From the evidence presented thus far, the poll was tied 6-6, at the start of the turn chat. Note the screenshot w/ the post by CT commenting on the poll being tied at the start of the turn chat. No attempt appears to have been made to determine the preference of the leader or deputy leader to break the tie. CT broke the tie as President and DP. Her vote, based the poll options, was to stop the prebuilds in both cities. Looking at the public poll breakdown, the acting provincial leader preferred to continue the prebuild in Zojoji only, as demonstrated by his vote.

My answer to question 1 is that the legal instruction for the city of Zojoji was to continue building the prebuild, using the acting provincial leader's preference to break the tie.

As a side note, even should we determine that the DP, and DP alone could break the tie, and ignore the acting provincial leader's preference, they could only choose amongst the poll options, in this case, cancel both prebuilds.

The instructions for Zojoji clearly stated that if the pre-build was cancelled to change to a Colloseum, and queue up Swordsmen.

The second question is much simpler to answer. The DP did not follow the legal instructions. The pre-build is not being built anymore, nor is a colloseum built in Zojoji.

Quite honestly, any reasons or excuse for why an instruction was not followed belongs in a penalty discussion, not in a fault discussion. I believe that the DP ignored the instructions of the leader to follow her preference. The leader clearly did plan for both situations in his instructions. These were not followed.

-- Ravensfire
I have to agree with you on all points, ravensfire.
 
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