Investigation Thread ~ The People vs Chieftess

[Black_Hole]

Still impossible to tell, you also have to take into consideration several factors.

1) Time differances (and I don't mean time zones), people clocks are differant, some might be 2 minutes ahead, some 2 minutes behind.

2) Did CT click on that poll 5, 10, 20 minutes ago and just didn't refresh when she said that? Was her statement the latest information? It's possible that CT clicked on the link, and just had the window up several minutes before saying that.

They don't need to copy down all of the instructions, once the turnchat thread is open, it's going to stay open even if the forums go down, she just can't refresh or going anywhere else.

as you can see strider:

Sep 26, 2004, 12:01 PM

which is my time, not shur on everyone elses timezone, but that is 1 minute after, which you can see is after the tc 'started', the changse of her having that page open for 15 minutes is very low strider and you know it

without polls, most of the people wouldnt be voiced in our governemnt
if we just take discussions, which ususually include only people that are active this lets the dp infer what the people want(theres no numbers)

we cant have the minister post in his/her instructions the poll results at that time, what if they are close? what if the minister is busy the next day and haven forbid post the insructions a day in advance! usually by that time the poll has only been open for 12 hours at the most, so we have no real deterination of the will of the people

 

[Strider]

as you can see strider:
which is my time, not shur on everyone elses timezone, but that is 1 minute after, which you can see is after the tc 'started', the changse of her having that page open for 15 minutes is very low strider and you know it

without polls, most of the people wouldnt be voiced in our governemnt
if we just take discussions, which ususually include only people that are active this lets the dp infer what the people want(theres no numbers)

we cant have the minister post in his/her instructions the poll results at that time, what if they are close? what if the minister is busy the next day and haven forbid post the insructions a day in advance! usually by that time the poll has only been open for 12 hours at the most, so we have no real deterination of the will of the people

Actually, the chance is VERY high, as I believe CT opens up all of the polls before starting the T/C. There is actually a huge chance that she just didn't have the most up to date information, even if so, there is no proof to prove it one way or the other, and to try to claim it any other way would be unfair.

The point is if they are close, also it takes 5 minutes to post instructions, and there is always the deputy, no one is that busy.

 

[Black_Hole]

Actually, the chance is VERY high, as I believe CT opens up all of the polls before starting the T/C. There is actually a huge chance that she just didn't have the most up to date information, even if so, there is no proof to prove it one way or the other, and to try to claim it any other way would be unfair.

The point is if they are close, also it takes 5 minutes to post instructions, and there is always the deputy, no one is that busy.

its no uncommon for someone to be out of town during the morning, having a tc at noon, and the deputy is busy/doesnt notice instructions arent posted

well i shur would hope our dp doesnt open up a poll 15 minutes in advance and call that the poll's final resul, especially when the poll is tied.
If the poll is tied 15 min b4 the tc and you are dp, arent you gonna refresh the page when the cc starts?

 

[DaveShack]

Strider -- settle down a bit here. There is way too much precedent in the results of polls being accepted as legal instructions to win that battle.

As for the facts in the case, it seems to me that it's pretty clear that a colloseum should have been built according to the instructions. A wonder prebuild should always be converted to the highest shield value item available, to minimize waste. I haven't been following the game closely enough to know how many shields would have been wasted by building something other than a colloseum, or even what else was built, but that is the real impact of not following instructions in this case.

 

[Strider]

Strider -- settle down a bit here. There is way too much precedent in the results of polls being accepted as legal instructions to win that battle.

Actually, I'm guessing that I can easily win that battle. By implementing a set limit between turnchats, IE only one turnchat every 4 days (this gives 2 days for discussion and 2 for polling). It can easily be passed, trust me this CC will likely point out many mistakes in the current system. Which should only aid my effort to scrap everything and start over.

Also, as I've said, there is not enough solid proof to prove that CT did not follow instructions. Sure, there's enough to GUESS, but not enough to find her guilty.

 

[Ashburnham]

I don't know, Strider. The facts seem fairly damning as far as Chieftess is concerned. Hopefully-- and most likely-- it was a simple error that we can forgive and accept. I don't think an overhaul of the Demogame system is necessary. Extending the period between TC's sounds like a valid improvement, given the tight schedule of discussing and polling, but scrapping everything? I'm not so sure.

 

[Strider]

I don't know, Strider. The facts seem fairly damning as far as Chieftess is concerned. Hopefully-- and most likely-- it was a simple error that we can forgive and accept. I don't think an overhaul of the Demogame system is necessary. Extending the period between TC's sounds like a valid improvement, given the tight schedule of discussing and polling, but scrapping everything? I'm not so sure.

haha, trust me, we'd be much better off.

Like I said, there is enough to make a guess, there is not enough evidence to find her guilty however.

 

[Black_Hole]

haha, trust me, we'd be much better off.

Like I said, there is enough to make a guess, there is not enough evidence to find her guilty however.

how is this a guess strider?!?!? we know she is guilty, what we dont know is if she did it purposely or by accident(which we hope it is).
this is just like guessing will I turn 15 on my next birthdy? well unless in a the smallest decimal of a percent of chance that I die before then is the only way that could be true.

i dont see how you can argue she didnt break the instructions with all of that evidence

 

[Donovan Zoi]

Dave, IIRC the Colosseum switch would have wasted 29 shields. Also, I believe a Colosseum is 100 shields, while a Swordsman is 30 shields. Therefore, the decision to build the Swordsman resulted in 99 shields wasted. And I don't remember that number being presented in chat, at least in the findings presented here thus far.

As far as conspiracy theories go, it is definitely an overstatement to say that Chieftess is taking over the game. However, we are dealing with someone who has left the DemoGame twice when not awarded an open Moderator position, and was on the verge of leaving a third time when not initially awarded the spot upon my resignation. TF stepped in, and our President is now running yet another forum. To her credit, her tenure as DG mod has produced only one questionable ban of a political opponent to my knowledge. Yet this is the first time that the primary moderator of the DG has not nurtured the legal aspect of the game. And the DG has certainly suffered because of that, even with the hard work of some dedicated citizens. But I digress.

This CC is definitely about the broken rules of the game, but is also about the sense of arrogance and entitlement that our current President seems to wield whenever she is in control of the game. She also tends to downplay her legal missteps by reminding us that "this is just a game," and we should all lighten up.

If we want to just play a "game", CFC offers several opportunities in the Succession Games forum, as well as other contests of skill and fun. But we are trying to run a mock government here; a place where the laws do matter. And for that reason, we need to make sure those laws are followed for the good of the game. After all, it's a much better game when played correctly.

 

[classical_hero]

Actually, I'm guessing that I can easily win that battle. By implementing a set limit between turnchats, IE only one turnchat every 4 days (this gives 2 days for discussion and 2 for polling). It can easily be passed, trust me this CC will likely point out many mistakes in the current system. Which should only aid my effort to scrap everything and start over.

Also, as I've said, there is not enough solid proof to prove that CT did not follow instructions. Sure, there's enough to GUESS, but not enough to find her guilty.

I do like that Idea of making sure each TC has polls that are completed, so that ministry instructions are final and certain. I do hope that out of this CC we get a clearer picture of how this game will be run. I believe that every ministry should be present, either the Minister and/or Deputy be there, or someone who has been given some authority from the relevant ministry and is 100% sure of what the ministries stand is. That person, whoever it is should be made accountable for the relevant actions that are needed to be taken. I do not believe that Cheiftess is wholly to blame for this issue. While she did disregard the instructions, the instruction could have been intepreted in different ways, as some people have done. I believe that some ministers should also take responsiblity for the resultant.

 

[Sir Donald III]

Actually, I'm guessing that I can easily win that battle. By implementing a set limit between turnchats, IE only one turnchat every 4 days (this gives 2 days for discussion and 2 for polling). It can easily be passed, trust me this CC will likely point out many mistakes in the current system.

Well, still, it'd be up to the Officers to come up with a plan.

Which should only aid my effort to scrap everything and start over.

And what, praytell, would that solve? More than likely, such a scenario would see Cyc as President for Term 1 rather than Chieftess.

Also, as I've said, there is not enough solid proof to prove that CT did not follow instructions. Sure, there's enough to GUESS, but not enough to find her guilty.

Actually, I personally would argue that the charge of "not following instructions" is not as important as the charge I make in Post #39 and which had been listed as a factual statement in Black Hole's submission of charges.

The only way she could have gve against this, was if snipelfritz(who was present at the chat) broke the tie, and she did not give him the oppurtunity to do that.

 

[Rik Meleet]

Actually, the chance is VERY high, as I believe CT opens up all of the polls before starting the T/C. There is actually a huge chance that she just didn't have the most up to date information, even if so, there is no proof to prove it one way or the other, and to try to claim it any other way would be unfair.

The point is if they are close, also it takes 5 minutes to post instructions, and there is always the deputy, no one is that busy.

I volunteer to be a witness. This is my statement.

I opened the poll after I read in the TC that the poll was tied. I wanted to look which poll and saw I hadn't voted in it yet. Since the poll was still open I voted. I then looked at the top 2 options and saw that my vote made it 6-7. So before I voted it must have been 6-6. That means Chieftess had sufficiently up-to-date information at the start of the turnchat.
After seeing the 6-7 vote for the top 2 options I posted in the thread and told in the TC that the tie was broken.

BTW I 'never' leave the chatroom and log when I'm present. That means I can determine whether snipelfritz was present at the time of my vote in the poll. Is the Judiciary branch interested in this evidence ?

 

[Provolution]

My 5 cents

The annihilation of the wonder prebuild in exchange for swordsmen actually compares to a major warcrime for DG purposes. This was not "any" change of build queues, his was the obliteration of the democratic product of long discussion threads and numerus polls on the issue of wonders. In fact, exchanging wonders for swordsmen AGAINST the will of the people is irreversible and undeniably a major violation of the spirit of the demogame. As soon as that production was changed, after successive mockeries of the "lighthouse" as a Giant Spotlight, which many players, CT and SD3 included advocated for in order to hide our continental extermination to new continents, this was a decision that virtually obliterated the wonder strategy of the game for terms to come. Certainly, if this was a minor change from spearman to swordsman, I would not even lift an eyebrow, and would laugh calmly to the hysterical drama unfolding.

However, extinguising the Great Lighthouse for a quick extra swordsman against the polled majority, and as made crystal clear by the criteria poised by Ravensfire, the very CC by Blackhole, the evidence provided by Cyc and finally the witness brought by Rik Meleet. In fact, Rik Meleet was one of the initial people that inspired me to enter this very game with his clear and concise counsel on how to maneuver, so I do take his witness very seriously. Again, I see no need to make this a major personal vendetta, or to mete out any harsh punishments. Maybe this CC would stand as a reminder for future elections and as a statutory monument on how abuse can happen.

 

[ravensfire]

Unless I am mistaken, this term will end without this trial being completed - there is not enough time left.

I ask the court to consider closing this case, and continuing it on to the next court for them to handle. This does mean the process will need to start again. Likewise, we probably should never have started this case under this court as the minimum time for a full trial is 6 days.

This case is a prime example of the need for a remedy system similar to DG4 - I hope the next court considers the use of such a system. I feel it's been demonstrated that a mistake was made and an instruction not followed. It happens. If there was a remedy system available, I would have suggested that a warning be given to CT, and request that she slow down a bit and review the instructions a bit more carefully before using her preferences. This should have been handled in 1-2 days.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Cyc]

As posted in the Term 2 Judicial thread:

You are correct in stating that the Term will soon be over, Ravensfire. This Citizen Complaint was filed around four days ago (88 hours ago), therefore we were given ample time to prep for the case and get the ball rolling, so to speak. In this Court's opinion, closing this case now, after the Investigation Thread has reached a point of rehashing evidence given in the opening statements, would be a travesty of Justice. It would also be denying Black_Hole his Constitutional rights according to Article A of the Constitution:

Article A.  All Civfanatics Forum users who register in the Citizen 
            Registry are citizens of our country. Citizens have the 
            right to assemble, the right to free movement, the right 
            to free speech, the right to a fair trial, the right to 
            representation, [b]the right to seek to redress grievances[/b] 
            and the right to vote.

As Chieftess has already presented evidence to her defense, closing this case now would also be infringing on the President's rights afforded to her by the same Article of the Constitution. (the right to a fair trial, the right to representation)

This Court, or ANY Court, shouldn't be in the practice of denying citizens the rights they are gauranteed in the Constitution. No Chief Justice should be breaking the Law according to Article A of the Constitution, and I will not place myself in that position.

Therefore this case will continue on into the next Term and hopefully, our next Chief Justice, gert-janl will sufficently provide Black_Hole and Chieftess their rights in this matter. The Trial poll will bridge the two Terms and the Sentancing Poll will be generated in Term 3, should the defendant be found guilty.

 

[Cyc]

This investigation is now closed, as no new evidence has been presented by the Prosecution or the Defense since the begining of this thread. This thread has degenerated in to bickering and side accusations and is counter-productive to the well being of Japanatica. You may continue to post your opinions or discuss the case, but the Citizen's Complaint has moved onto the next phase. Thank you for your participation,

CJ Cyc


A Trial Poll has been opened here.

 

[donsig]

I know it's a bit late but here's my two cents.

1) The governor was absent as noted by a post in the official absence thread.

2) The deputy governor posted build queues.

3) These queues were not followed.

Conclusion: The posted instructions were legal. They were not followed and so the charge is valid.

I do sympathize with CT one point. The posted build queues do not follow our *normal* format and are there a bit confusing (even to someone without a vision impairment).

Beyond that there is a veritable slew of things to comment on in this case. The constitution is written so as to invite problems such as this. One article puts the Cultural Minister in charge of building Wonders while another gives Governors the authority to set the build queues in cities. This is not a good way of dividing responsibility and directly led to the confusion here. Until we can settle on a constitution that can be carried forward from game to game we will continue to have problems. We had a great constitution in DG3 and our worst mistake was abandoning it for DG4 and those cursed Three Books.

Another on going DG problem is polling. This case takes us back to one of the fundamental problems that have plagued the DGs since the first: last minute polls that are poorly written and even more poorly interpreted. Why can't we get polls up that are actually closed before game play is scheduled to start?

Another continuing problem is our reliance on the bloody chat. If there were no blasted chat then we'd ensure polls were up and done in time for instructions to be posted by leaders. We'd ensure that these instructions were posted well before game play was scheduled so that we, the citizens, could examine said instructions and take our leaders to task for and problems - and we'd be able to do this before game play in a proactive way rather than react through these cursed CCs (or whatever they are called in this day and age).
This business of posting conditional orders dependeant on the outcome of a still open poll is bad stuff and should be curtailed.
Another problem I see creeping up in this thread is the talk of polls being valid and legal instructions. How absurd! Instructions are legal and valid only when posted by the proper leader. Polls can be evidence of the *Will of the People* and can therefore be used to justify said orders (as the Deputy Governor did in this case) or to show that a leader is violating the constitution by not following the WotP but in and of themselves polls are not legal instructions!
BTW, I do not see how the poll brought into evidence in this thread has any bearing on this case. The deputy governor's instructions were explicit and gave the DP no leeway to change them. Even arguing that a tie existed in the poll and granting the DP the right to break the tie in the poll would not enable CT to change the build queue to swordsman since the Cultural Minister's instruction also clearly (and correctly) states that in the event the pre-builds are stopped it is up to the governor (or in this case deputy governor) to formulate the build queues.

 

[Black_Hole]

strider as I dont want to liter the trial poll with arguements, I ask you clarify this:

Oh, I already started to solve it. I sent a judicial review to the Term 3 judiciary over the matter.

this is in response to

Originally Posted by blackheart
Maybe CT will speak for herself about this matter.

why are you filing a JR forcing CT to defend herself?!?

 

[blackheart]

why are you filing a JR forcing CT to defend herself?!?

I'm not really sure what you mean here. I didn't file anything against anyone. The question was more directed towards Strider for his overzealous defense of CT when she hasn't said as much as him.

 

[Black_Hole]

I'm not really sure what you mean here. I didn't file anything against anyone. The question was more directed towards Strider for his overzealous defense of CT when she hasn't said as much as him.

and i was directing that question at strider, since he is the one filing a JR....