Iran nuke deal

If it's obvious you must know something I don't. Please give me the knowledge.
I suggest you research it yourself. It is common knowledge that the vast majority of ultraconservatives are extremely authoritarian, both in the US and in Israel as well as most of the rest of the world. The only real exception I know about are conservative libertarians in the US. And even they are frequently more authoritarian than many liberals and moderates/ But as the political compass of various presidential candidates clearly shows, Ron Paul is nowhere near as authoritarian as the other ultraconservatives.

All that democracy means is that every resident of a given country gets a vote in running the affairs of it. Dictatorship is hardly the only alternative.
Exactly what other form of government do you think these xenophobic, theocratic, reactionary, and authoritarian Israelis are referring to? Communism in a non-dictatorial form? Anarchy?

It's also not exactly shocking that a regional power in a region where other powers gave nuclear weapons would also want them. If they're actually not pursuing them then that's really quite admirable restraint.
If I was being constantly threatened by the US and Israel I'd definitely want to develop nukes. That is the only way they will ever leave you alone. It certainly seems to be working for North Korea now. They finally feel fairly secure they will not be the next invasion victim by a Republican president who labels them a part of the Axis of Evil.
 
Iran going nuclear is third or fourth on the list of dangerous consequences of this deal.

First is the $150B+ in assets that will be freed, which will no doubt be spent heavily on conventional weapons and conitnued sponsoring of terrorist organizations in the region. Frankly, I don't believe the Iranian people have the stomach to demand those funds be used to build non-military infrastructure or develop social programs, let alone the stomach to act on those demands when Khamenei says, "No."
As of now, best guess for Iranian expenditure on their military puts it somewhere around $8 billion to $14 billion. For comparison, Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States spend about $72 billion (numbers from Stockholm International Peace Research Institute). Iran has a long way to go before it equals the Saudis and the Gulf States.
Additionally, the two largest recipients of Iranian aid in the region are Iraq and Syria -both of whom are nominally secular governments fighting against a radical, barbaric, Islamist state. Relations with Hezbollah have soured due to Hezbollah's increasingly frosty relations with the Syrian government. As far as Yemen goes, the county is sufficiently fallen apart it really isn't clear if there is a state there any more.
Rather, it is more likely the released assets will go toward re-establishing food subsidies (food prices in Iran are rising fast enough it is starting to become a major issue) and kick start its decrepit economy. Iran's population is on average young and nominally westernized (socially at least). The government has no desire to have a large number of well educated people with no jobs capable of protesting the government.

Second is the threat of Iran going nuclear, which will push neighboring Arab states to go nuclear themselves, probably before Iran achieves it, assuming they even abide by Obama's empty promises of verification.
Getting nuclear weapons is a very expensive proposition. FWIW, the Manhattan project cost about as much as the US's entire small arms production in the war or the amount the UK spent on Bomber Command. While things have gotten cheaper, instructions from transitioning from civilian and scientific reactors to getting working, useable nuclear weapons and delivery systems is challenging at best.
It took India almost 30 years to get a useable nuclear weapon, and that was without crippling sanctions on nuclear technology and with unintended Canadian assistance.

Third is the threat of any Arab nation's nukes falling into the hands of religious extremists. The Iranian government may only want nukes as a status symbol, but the likelihood that fringe elements actively willing to use a nuke will obtain one is greatly increased.
Since Iran lacks nuclear weapons, we have no idea what their control method will be, but it is likely they will follow the Pakistani method of splitting the nuclear weapon and its delivery method into basic parts (warhead, detonator, missile, engine, guidance system) and spreading them around the country to secured positions.

Obama's claims of negotiating from a "position of strength and principle," when the deal violates several of Obama's stated principles and demonstrates a complete willingness to cave into Tehran, would make for some great punchlines, but Hollywood is very effective at blacklisting anyone critical of the administration.
Could you demonstrate how the deal showed 'caving to Tehran'? The talks managed to avert what really looked like was going to escalate into a war back into 2013, and we got something demonstrating an international consensus. Plus, it gets Iran invested in the international community. Pariah states aren't responsive to international pressure because the international community has no levers to push on. Given the issues going on in the Middle East -notably ISIS, a group Iran staunchly opposes- getting one of the regions half-decent democracies* working with the international community can't be that bad of a thing.
*Remember the protests back in 2009 (I think it was)? Those were because Iranians felt the government had rigged the election, demonstrating that they believed it was at least somewhat a free and fair election.

I can only wonder at what sort of positive engagement with the West we can expect as a result, from a people who openly despise our stance on social issues such as the legalization of same-sex marriage. I'm sure in their arrogance they believe Hollywood will conquer all, even though that's a top target for anti-American hatred.
Yes, because opinions on same-sex marriage it totally a reason to avoid having functioning diplomatic relations with a county. :rolleyes:
Saudi Arabia prevents women from driving and beheads people and every US President I can think of since Saudi Arabia found oil has considered them a valuable ally in the region. The Egyptian government just had a military coup and is busy rounding up journalists and handing out mass death sentences, yet we still cooperate with them.

It's not as though Iran promised to cease sponsoring terrorists groups, or even to soften its official stance against America or Israel.
And what is that stance? Rouhani can't be a huge fan of America and Israel -too much lingering distrust- but so what?
It hasn't even been a week since their leaders proudly marched in Quds Day celebrations. They openly profess their continued hatred for the West, especially America and Israel, and continue to claim the agreement does nothing to prevent them from developing nuclear weapons.
Source please, for the developing nuclear weapons.
FWIW, the Mossad has said that they do not believe Iran is developing nuclear weapons.
BBC said:
Bottom line: though Iran at this stage is not performing the activity necessary to produce weapons, it is working to close gaps in areas that appear legitimate such as enrichment, reactors, which will reduce the time required to produce weapons from the time the instruction is actually given
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-31596640

It prohibits nukes in statement only. They have plenty of time to hide any illicit refinement or research before inspectors are allowed in, given the required 24 day notice of inspection. They've just been given a sizeable cash infusion for the procurement of conventional weapons, including missiles capable of delivering warheads. They openly state that their intentions have not changed one bit. They've repeatedly undermined past verification efforts.
UN Sanctions on the import of ballistic missile technology remains in place for another 8 or 10 years (I forgot which).

Only a fool would think this deal is anything but an invitation for more conflict in the region, with a potential to grow into a major regional, and from there global, conflict. And with China laying claim to the South China Sea, and from there the rest of the South Pacific, it's entirely possible the the US will be unable to deploy forces in a timely manner if necessary.
America possesses enough enough nukes to vaporize the planet several times over, more aircraft carriers than the next six countries combined (and that is assuming India's jury-rigged ex-Soviet carrier; the bucket of bolts that is the Kuznetsov; and the soon to be 60 year old Sao Paolo in the Brazilian navy are in any way vaguely comparable to a supercarrier), allies around the world -which becomes even greater when thinking about push-comes-to-shove allies*- and a defense budget that nobody else in the world comes near to matching, and you are afraid we can't project power if we really needed to?
*Take the South China Sea for example. Excepting Japan, the Philippines, and Australia, our relations with the other countries are mediocre at best. However, all of those countries would prefer to work with a status-quo maintaining America half a world away than a revanchist, frisky China breathing down their necks.



Unrelated, but Robert Fisk is as interesting as always:
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...man-in-the-gulf-it-could-happen-10154920.html
 
I suggest you research it yourself. It is common knowledge that the vast majority of ultraconservatives are extremely authoritarian, both in the US and in Israel as well as most of the rest of the world. The only real exception I know about are conservative libertarians in the US. And even they are frequently more authoritarian than many liberals and moderates/ But as the political compass of various presidential candidates clearly shows, Ron Paul is nowhere near as authoritarian as the other ultraconservatives.

'Conservative' means entirely different things from country to country. And in the US the non-libertarian conservatives believe in more freedom for business than progressives. I think that certainly makes the left more authoritarian, if we go by a proper definition of the word.

(Not that I think it's a bad thing.)

Exactly what other form of government do you think these xenophobic, theocratic, reactionary, and authoritarian Israelis are referring to? Communism in a non-dictatorial form? Anarchy?

No, if we're talking about citizenship on an ethnic basis, or making the West Bank into a series of vassal 'cantons', then we certainly aren't talking about a dictatorship, which is defined as: "a form of government where political authority is monopolized by a person or political entity, and exercised through various mechanisms to ensure the entities power remains strong. A dictatorship is a type of authoritarianism, in which politicians regulate nearly every aspect of the public and private behavior of normal people."

Do recall that I entered the thread because if this specific claim you made.

If I was being constantly threatened by the US and Israel I'd definitely want to develop nukes. That is the only way they will ever leave you alone.

I would also control various Shiite organizations across the Middle East, extending my influence into Iraq, Yemen, and Lebanon and sparking the occasional brutal civil war. :goodjob:

It certainly seems to be working for North Korea now. They finally feel fairly secure they will not be the next invasion victim by a Republican president who labels them a part of the Axis of Evil.

Secure enough to threaten war every few years and then say "joking!"
 
Don't you find that blatantly hypocritical? Why should we even pretend to support a "rogue nation" which continues to engage in terrorism? A nation which literally stole our nuclear secrets?

If you wish to discuss Israel and its politcal setup or regional involvement in (proxy) wars I am not sure its really about Iran or even nuclear weapons in the Middle East though.

As for blatantly hypocritical: no, Israel does exercise its right just the same as India did as a non-signatory. As with India its blatantly a failure of the US (et al.) to adhere to their commitments as signatory of the NPT by allowing India (back) into the civilian nuclear club after they had the bomb and helping Israel to develop its civilian nuclear capabilities - its not at all hypocritical of Israel to demand someone else adhere to treaties they are party of even if Israel is not also party to that same treaty. Its merely ineffectual, counterproductive to Israeli interests and overall part of what I called impotent threats.
 
If you wish to discuss Israel and its politcal setup or regional involvement in (proxy) wars I am not sure its really about Iran or even nuclear weapons in the Middle East though.
That was trying to respond to Mouthwash's posts. I guess I should have known better given his track record derailing threads in this very manner.

As for blatantly hypocritical: no, Israel does exercise its right just the same as India did as a non-signatory. As with India its blatantly a failure of the US (et al.) to adhere to their commitments as signatory of the NPT by allowing India (back) into the civilian nuclear club after they had the bomb and helping Israel to develop its civilian nuclear capabilities - its not at all hypocritical of Israel to demand someone else adhere to treaties they are party of even if Israel is not also party to that same treaty. Its merely ineffectual, counterproductive to Israeli interests and overall part of what I called impotent threats.
There are only 4 non-signatories of the NPT in the entire world. They all should be treated like rogue states until they decide to sign the treaty. Great pressure should be brought to bear on them to sign the treaty and destroy their weapons. If anybody should face sanctions it is them. This is particularly true since the US provided both India and Pakistan access to the equipment which they used to build their weapons through the "Atoms for Peace" program. And Israel stole our nuclear secrets, yet they have not been held accountable for doing so.

If we do not do so, I think we have no right to try to force Iran to not create their own nuclear weapons to defend themselves with similar weapons as their enemies.

As for the hypocrisy, I also think Israel has no right to try to force other nations to not build nuclear weapons to defend themselves from their overt threats. They should be told so in no uncertain terms that their opinions simply do not matter given that they are the primary instigator of the issue. If they wish to sign the NPT and destroy their weapons that is an entirely different matter. Then they have a legitimate reason to be concerned that their enemy might develop nuclear weapons in the future when they have none themselves.

That is if the US decides to stop bullying Iran as well. Until we do so, they have the right to defend themselves from us much as North Korea has done.
 
Israel really has no right to complain about the enforcement of a treaty it is not a party to. Sign it and then you can complain.
 
That was trying to respond to Mouthwash's posts. I guess I should have known better given his track record derailing threads in this very manner.

There are only 4 non-signatories of the NPT in the entire world. They all should be treated like rogue states until they decide to sign the treaty. Great pressure should be brought to bear on all of them to sign the treaty and destroy their weapons.

If we do not do so, I think we have no right to try to force Iran to not create their own nuclear weapons to defend themselves with similar weapons as their enemies.

As for the hypocrisy, Israel has no right to try to force other nations to not build nuclear weapons to defend themselves from their overt threats. They should be told so in no uncertain terms. If they wish to sign the NPT and destroy their weapons that is an entirely different matter. Then they have a legitimate reason to be concerned. That is if the US decides to stop bullying Iran as well.

with the special status in the NPT invented for India the ship has sailed for anything other than Israel receiving that same status (civilian program under IAEA auspices and military program seperated from that and not monitored) - also Israel is a rather special case in that the generally accepted timeline would likely place its first nuke into the time frame that the nuclear power in the NPT were defined (they did not test it though in the right time frame).

Edit: by the way just for the record: I believe the NPT died with the India deal, Israel at least doesn't openly declare its satus and flaunt the NPT (though that is merely a nuance). The sanctions regime visavis Iran also has its roots not so much in the enforcement of NPT than in the fact that it is (and more so was in the past) regarded as a threat to the interests of European and US interests in the region - otherwise it would have more likely fared like Iran with some cutting off from the nuclear market for a while and acceptance of its new status once it tested the bomb thereafter. Now though those same US and European interests have shifted in importance to their policy makers at least and thus sanctions are lifted. As with everything though merely admitting defeat/the nonsensical nature of the policy is not politically viable, anywhere, hence the hoops they had to jump through to get where we are now. Also I agree the treaty will do nothing to prevent a nuclear armed Iran, but that ship sailed a long while ago anyways and as I said the NPT is dead.
Curiously I doubt that Israel has to fear all that much from Iran at all (and the reverse is true as well), it is much more of a threat to the regional interests of its more direct neighbors and with less restrictions on its economy should be a factor in a rather stronger change in the regional situation as a whole. If that is for good or bad from where I stand is something I am not sure about, but that does not really matter all that much.
 
Israel really has not right to complain about the enforcement of a treaty it is not a party to. Sign it and then you can complain.
Indeed.

with the special status in the NPT invented for India the ship has sailed for anything other than Israel receiving that same status (civilian program under IAEA auspices and military program seperated from that and not monitored) - also Israel is a rather special case in that the generally accepted timeline would likely place its first nuke into the time frame that the nuclear power in the NPT were defined (they did not test it though in the right time frame).
Israel still hasn't even admitted they have a single nuclear weapon, much less an arsenal. So I would think it would be rather difficult for them to tell the international community now when it was first produced. It is also doubtful they produced one by 1968. Even so, the nuclear states are specifically enumerated in the treaty so it doesn't really matter. The treaty was extended indefinitely in 1995. I also suspect that Israel has found ways to test their weapons in secret, or perhaps even with the aid of the US government.

Either way, if Israel continues to have nuclear weapons they can hardly complain that Iran is merely taking steps to protect itself from their continual aggression (either directly or through their proxy, the US), espionage, spying, and terrorist acts against its citizens.
 
Iran going nuclear is third or fourth on the list of dangerous consequences of this deal.

First is the $150B+ in assets that will be freed, which will no doubt be spent heavily on conventional weapons and conitnued sponsoring of terrorist organizations in the region. Frankly, I don't believe the Iranian people have the stomach to demand those funds be used to build non-military infrastructure or develop social programs, let alone the stomach to act on those demands when Khamenei says, "No."

Second is the threat of Iran going nuclear, which will push neighboring Arab states to go nuclear themselves, probably before Iran achieves it, assuming they even abide by Obama's empty promises of verification.

Third is the threat of any Arab nation's nukes falling into the hands of religious extremists. The Iranian government may only want nukes as a status symbol, but the likelihood that fringe elements actively willing to use a nuke will obtain one is greatly increased.

Obama's claims of negotiating from a "position of strength and principle," when the deal violates several of Obama's stated principles and demonstrates a complete willingness to cave into Tehran, would make for some great punchlines, but Hollywood is very effective at blacklisting anyone critical of the administration.

I can only wonder at what sort of positive engagement with the West we can expect as a result, from a people who openly despise our stance on social issues such as the legalization of same-sex marriage. I'm sure in their arrogance they believe Hollywood will conquer all, even though that's a top target for anti-American hatred.

It's not as though Iran promised to cease sponsoring terrorists groups, or even to soften its official stance against America or Israel. It hasn't even been a week since their leaders proudly marched in Quds Day celebrations. They openly profess their continued hatred for the West, especially America and Israel, and continue to claim the agreement does nothing to prevent them from developing nuclear weapons.

Meanwhile, Congress is powerless to stop the agreement. It can vote against it, which Obama will veto, but assuming the Democrats obey their party taskmasters, and they always do, there's no way for Congress to overturn the veto. This puts any consequences firmly on the shoulders of Obama and Kerry (and the Euro negotiators), but given the left's dominance of academia and education, it could be a century or more before historians even openly admit as much. No doubt for the next several decades, if a nuke is used in the Middle East by anyone other than the West or Israel, they'll bend over backwards to blame it on Bush.

The whole thing reeks of an arrogant administration too self-absorbed to know better. Truly, history is poorly taught in American schools. Above all other obligations, we should be striving to keep nuclear weapons in as few hands as possible. It's our own damn fault they even exist.

It prohibits nukes in statement only. They have plenty of time to hide any illicit refinement or research before inspectors are allowed in, given the required 24 day notice of inspection. They've just been given a sizeable cash infusion for the procurement of conventional weapons, including missiles capable of delivering warheads. They openly state that their intentions have not changed one bit. They've repeatedly undermined past verification efforts.

And the deal openly allows them to pursue nukes inside a decade, assuming they dutifully obey it.

Only a fool would think this deal is anything but an invitation for more conflict in the region, with a potential to grow into a major regional, and from there global, conflict. And with China laying claim to the South China Sea, and from there the rest of the South Pacific, it's entirely possible the the US will be unable to deploy forces in a timely manner if necessary.

It would have been far better to continue sanctions until ISIS was literally invading, rather than essentially arming them to fight ISIS, while giving every other Arab state cause to secretly develop their own nuclear weapons, exponentially increasing the likelihood that one or more fall into the hands of extremists and are actually used.
Iran is likely to spend a bit of their unlocked hard currency on conventional weapons because ISIS has stated it is going to exterminate Shiites which is the official religion of Iran. Rouhani I am sure is going to spend a solid chunk of this currency and lifting of sanctions on food subsidies which will help calm the Iranian people down and also for him to invest it in the economy. He is going to invest in the economy as it will help assure him reelection.

I suggest you research it yourself. It is common knowledge that the vast majority of ultraconservatives are extremely authoritarian, both in the US and in Israel as well as most of the rest of the world. The only real exception I know about are conservative libertarians in the US. And even they are frequently more authoritarian than many liberals and moderates/ But as the political compass of various presidential candidates clearly shows, Ron Paul is nowhere near as authoritarian as the other ultraconservatives.

Exactly what other form of government do you think these xenophobic, theocratic, reactionary, and authoritarian Israelis are referring to? Communism in a non-dictatorial form? Anarchy?

If I was being constantly threatened by the US and Israel I'd definitely want to develop nukes. That is the only way they will ever leave you alone. It certainly seems to be working for North Korea now. They finally feel fairly secure they will not be the next invasion victim by a Republican president who labels them a part of the Axis of Evil.

Israel could turn further into a Herrenvolk democracy which is not actually a type of dictatorship.
 
Iran going nuclear is third or fourth on the list of dangerous consequences of this deal.

Not really. As mentioned in the terms of the current deal, Iran has agreed to reduce their nuclear potential. Plus all nuclear installations will now fall under IAEA supervision.

Doesn't anyone bother to actually read the terms of this deal before throwing their 'opinions' around?
 
Not really. As mentioned in the terms of the current deal, Iran has agreed to reduce their nuclear potential. Plus all nuclear installations will now fall under IAEA supervision.

Doesn't anyone bother to actually read the terms of this deal before throwing their 'opinions' around?

Facts are irrelevant when there's fearmongering to be done.
 
Not really. As mentioned in the terms of the current deal, Iran has agreed to reduce their nuclear potential. Plus all nuclear installations will now fall under IAEA supervision.

Doesn't anyone bother to actually read the terms of this deal before throwing their 'opinions' around?
They've repeatedly violated every agreement they've made.

What makes this one special? Because Obama says so? That's no assurance at all.
 
They've repeatedly violated every agreement they've made.

What makes this one special? Because Obama says so? That's no assurance at all.

There was so far only one (and a half) agreement on this which was the safeguards agreement of 1974 which Iran certainly breached with non-disclosure of some of its strategic work and the half being the additional protocol they signed in2003 but never ratified - they are also arguably in breach of that but since it never went into force that point is moot. So the argument they repeatedly violated everything they agreed to is actually false as they simply did not agree to anything binding from the revolution to date.
Now they are also arguably in breach of some Security council resolutions on the matter (though I don't know the texts of those well enough to judge) - but going there is not feasible I think with regards to deciding whether this agreement is a good one or not.

Bottomline: this is the first time they agreed to specific safeguards with regards to their nuclear activities since essentially they acceded to the NPT and as such the point about previous agreements having been disregarded is a non-argument.
 
Not really. As mentioned in the terms of the current deal, Iran has agreed to reduce their nuclear potential. Plus all nuclear installations will now fall under IAEA supervision.

Doesn't anyone bother to actually read the terms of this deal before throwing their 'opinions' around?

You mean how there was such a deal already on the books for this to happen and ye they illegally built two nuclear facilities under the sanctions? Iran has violated the sanctions before and they got rewarded with this deal, so what motivation do you think they would have to make sure that they will allow inspections to happen. Quite frankly the inspection clause is not worth the piece of paper it is written on.

This is compared to the deal the previous President Bush got with Lybia and it's nuclear program, where he got them to give over all their nuclear material
 
CH, aren't you supposed to be one of those crazy zealots that are eager about armageddon? If this is such a mistake shouldn't you be celebrating?
 
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History will repeat itself.
 
Yeah we better not repeat our mistake there. Of course the mistake was that we elected a paranoia spouting GWBush administration that said "despite all appearances that indicate North Korea is complying with the agreement, we believe they are the axis of evil and are going to impose sanctions on them for non compliance." Clearly, following this agreement with Iran returning the paranoid loons to power would be a truly horrible and repetitious mistake.

Lesson: NEVER, under any circumstances, let Dick Cheney and his neo-con disciples anywhere near ANY position in the defense, state, or intelligence departments. In fact, it would be best to prosecute them all and execute the lot of them.
 
curious if there were changes in US policies at all between 1994 and 2006...

Anyhow if history repeats itself and Iran gets its first "nuclear device" in a decade and still does not have a bomb by then then the current deal is a major success, hell if it does not have a bomb in a year its a success as everyone involved essentially agrees that Iran could build a bomb within a year now if they wanted and nobody would stop them from doing so without a diplomatic settlement. Those decrying this deal as somehow paving the way to an Iranian bomb utterly fail at providing anything resembling a sane nevermind a realistic plan to keep Iran from getting a bomb without this deal. More sanctions is not going to cut it as everyone who is not willfully blind can see that the current sanctions are not sustainable never mind escalating those.
 
Bill Clinton's mistake was trusting that North Korea wouldn't try to break the deal once the United States got a weak President.
 
Bill Clinton's mistake was trusting that North Korea wouldn't try to break the deal once the United States got a weak President.

By all appearances the weak president broke the deal first. Pretty much the same as he did with Iraq.
 
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