Is a word which is offensive to some people some of the time...

[PrinceOfLeigh]

offensive all of the time?

This is a subject which may get close to the bone so lets try to maintain a sense of decency otherwise it’s going to get closed before it gets off the ground.

We all know that there are certain terms relating to groups of people which are not accepted and are effectively banned from common use. These terms have been used in the past, still by some today, to marginalise, ridicule or subjected groups of people. I’m thinking of the “N” word and others.

Spoiler story :

Quite understandably these words cause great offence to some. But not to all, and not in every context. You only need to listen to the latest Rap Chart to hear the word being used repeatedly. I saw recently on “Big Brother” (not a great social experiment I know), whereas a young white rap fan was Rapping to himself and effectively leaving blanks where the “N” word was used. A black man in the same house told the white rap fan that he could use the word if he wanted because “those are the lyrics and I know that’s the only reason you’re saying it”.

In that case should people be free to use that word provided they don’t mean to cause offence to those who hear it?

The other issue of ‘offensiveness’ I wanted to bring up is perhaps demonstrated by a couple of stories which occurred to people I know.

Spoiler story :

Recently at my former place of work a lady stated that she was receiving calls on her phone from someone wanting to speak to someone else. She said that the person had rang on a number of occasions and sounded foreign. Another lady asked where the man was from. The lady receiving the calls stated that she didn’t know but he sounded like a “Paki fella”. The lady making the remark was overheard by one of the Bosses and very nearly lost her job. “Paki” the shortened term for Pakistani has been utilised by many racist groups as a derogatory term aimed at anyone in the Asian sub-continent. Clearly the way such groups use the term is offensive to those people. However the lady in this story never had that intention. Her intention was merely to denote where she believed the caller originated from.

Should someone therefore take offence at the word “Paki” at all times, or is it the case that it is a viable word to use if there is no intention to cause harm? Other countries have the name shortened without taking offence, Brit, Aussie ect. Should the same standard not apply to Pakistan?

Spoiler story :

The second story happened when I was a camp* counsellor in the US. Two kids had got into an argument and one had referred to the other as a “dumb Mexican”. The kid who made the remark was American and the other kid was born in Mexico. The America kid was kicked off camp. I thought this was rather harsh. To me, the issue here is one kid calling another “dumb”. After all, the lad was in fact Mexican. Why should it be assumed that the Mexican kids would be offended by someone calling him Mexican? I wouldn’t be offended if someone referred to me as English. We were called “Dumb Brits” on many occasions whilst we failed to tip, walked on “pavements” and abused the “honor system”.

In my view the American Lad had referred to the Mexican one as Mexican because he was one. Should have been punished then only for referring to someone as “dumb”?

In conclusion, should someone take offence when another person makes a remark that is offensive to them, even if the person making the remark did not intend harm?

I’m not expressing a view one way or another and I hope that this OP doesn’t show a slant to either side. I’m merely throwing it out there for debate.



*That’s a vacation camp, not a counsellor who wears pink and waxes his legs
** Apologies for the length of the OP, there was alot to cover

 

[Bozo Erectus]

The N-word was effectively removed from public discourse until black people themselves started using it in Rap. So now here it is again. If black people want to call each other that, and then at the same time tell white people that the word is off limits to them, doesnt make much sense to me, but we have no choice but to go along with it.

As far as 'Paki' goes, I dont see whats so offensive about it, its just a shortening of 'Pakistani'. But anyway, like with the n-word, if it offends Pakistani people, then it shouldnt be used. Its just common courtesy. If your name is Phillip and make it clear thats how you want to be addressed, it would be pretty silly of me to insist on calling you 'Phillybaby'.

 

[JonnyB]

Calling a person from Mexico a Mexican isn't racist, but thinking the word Mexican is racist is kind of racist.

 

[El_Machinae]

Good question:
There are many words (labels) that have a 'negative' connotation and others that have a 'neutral' connotation. Calling someone "Pakistani" cannot be any more offensive that calling someone else "Korean". However, "Paki" and "Slant eyes" are clearly racial attacks (thought it might not be to some observers).

"Paki" is a funny one, because it's a racial attack - even though Pakistan is a country. I was reading another forum, and watched Inqvisitor refer repeatedly to someone as a "Paki" despite the protestations that the man was from India.

We still live in a world where people mix up their cultural bias and their racial bias; and the PC movement is endeavouring to change and evolve this meme. An arab man's political and religious views are MUCH more important (when it comes to discrimination, etc.) than his racial heritage, and it's important to discriminate based on those, rather than race.

 

[Tank_Guy#3]

I have had several college classes that have dealt heavily with harassment. All it takes is to have it be offensive once, and that can often be enough to terminate you, especially if you have signed a document of ethics, then there is no leeway. This is nearly always the case in an office environment, though harassment rules are generally lax in the manufacturing/industrial sectors of the business world, though this is starting to change.

In that case should people be free to use that word provided they don’t mean to cause offence to those who hear it?

You, and everyone else, must bear this in mind AT ALL TIMES: it is not how you mean it, it is how it's percieved.

If you refer to a very good friend of yours that's handicapped as "Hey cripple", and he refers to you as "jock" or whatever he says. Even if he (the handicapped friend) isn't offended and takes it as a joke it can still be considered harassment if someone walking by found it as such.

PC is the way to be (even if you despise it).



(PC is Politically Correct if you didn't know).

 

[skadistic]

To consider the word niggger as applicable only to blacks is niggerish.

 

[GoodEnoughForMe]

PC is the way to be (even if you despise it).

The PC movement is trying to convince me that it's "white ignorance" and "inequality" that is the cause for our misunderstanding of the N word, and that blakcs should be able to say it, and phuey on us for not "getting" it. PCers say this is equality in action. And yet, I see white kids threatened to be beaten up when they discuss this.

Equality is letting everyone use the word, not a particular race.

 

[PrinceOfLeigh]

"Paki" is a funny one, because it's a racial attack - even though Pakistan is a country. I was reading another forum, and watched Inqvisitor refer repeatedly to someone as a "Paki" despite the protestations that the man was from India.

I think that's why the term is deemed to be offensive. Simply because people use it not just in relation to people actually from Pakistan, but in relation to anyone from the Asian Sub-Continent.

You, and everyone else, must bear this in mind AT ALL TIMES: it is not how you mean it, it is how it's percieved.

If you refer to a very good friend of yours that's handicapped as "Hey cripple", and he refers to you as "jock" or whatever he says. Even if he (the handicapped friend) isn't offended and takes it as a joke it can still be considered harassment if someone walking by found it as such.

PC is the way to be (even if you despise it). (PC is Politically Correct if you didn't know).

Can I just draw your attention to this line of the OP:

I’m not expressing a view one way or another and I hope that this OP doesn’t show a slant to either side. I’m merely throwing it out there for debate.

Don't say "you" meaning I should bear this in mind as if I don't. I'm merely bringing the issue up so that we can debate the pro-con's of it all and to allow each person to give his view. As I've started the thread, as a rule I generally don't give my views as I believe it to be the role of the OP to keep the debate on topic and moving forward. Not to preach at others what their view should be. I'm not going to flood this thread with articles for/against PC and I can assure you, I know what PC means.

 

[Tank_Guy#3]

The PC movement is trying to convince me that it's "white ignorance" and "inequality" that is the cause for our misunderstanding of the N word, and that blakcs should be able to say it, and phuey on us for not "getting" it. PCers say this is equality in action. And yet, I see white kids threatened to be beaten up when they discuss this.

Equality is letting everyone use the word, not a particular race.

I agree. Not so much white ignorance, but white arrogance and inequality that's the cause.

But if you want to hold onto your job, then stick with PC. I despise PC more than the average person, as I hold the 1st Amendment very close, but I still stick with it.

PC is out of hand. If you don't like following it, get a manufacturing job or maybe as a bartender, as those are the only ones that can really get away with being PC-free.

OK, enough rhyming.

 

[warpus]

I'm Polish and I don't find 'Pollack' particularly offensive. Yet if someone uses the term against me (which is usually done in a joking manner), they can expect to hear about their mom's recent sexual escapade (which might or might not be based on reality).

As for the N-word, it's all about context.

 

[Yuri2356]

I think that's why the term is deemed to be offensive. Simply because people use it not just in relation to people actually from Pakistan, but in relation to anyone from the Asian Sub-Continent.

I agree. As a reference to actual Pakistanis, it just seems like a logical abbreviation. I've never heard similar issues come up with residents of the other -stan countries. (Uzbeks, Kazakhs, Afghans, etc)

 

[Veritass]

Let's not forget people getting fired for using the word niggardly (miserly).

Really, the whole Jesse Jackson BS about creating a moratorium on the word is the wrong approach, in my opinion. This will just give the word that much more power when it is used.

Think of the F-word. It used to have power. I can still remember when I found out that it was "...the nastiest word there is." What power! The F-word has been overused to the point where no one really cares about it any more.

Think of the Q-word (queer). It used to be quite a slanderous term. The gay population took charge of the word, co-opted it for their own use, and now it is not big deal.

 

[PrinceOfLeigh]

Perhaps the social exclusion effect of using such terms is the source of it's offensiveness then? For instance, I've no objection to be labeled as a "pom" by an Aussie*. However, if I was living in Australia and I was labelled as a bloody pom in order to exclude me from their group I'd probably start to feel agreived at the use of the word.

Whether I'd be offended enough to be offended irrelevant of whether the user intended it to be offensive I don't know.


*Actual historical relevance of such word perhaps not for this thead

 

[AL_DA_GREAT]

THe n word is the correct way in english to reffer to a black person. Just because they where treated badly doesn't mean they need their names changed. We treat dogs badly but when are we going to reffer to them as a four legged individual. (note I am not comparing black people to animals and I am not racist because of skin colour)

 

[amadeus]

That is true. Largely before the 20th century, that word was considered neutral and only meant to denote a person's race.

 

[silver 2039]

I'm brown. Thus I can never be rascist. A nice little benefit eh?

 

[Bozo Erectus]

I'm brown. Thus I can never be rascist. A nice little benefit eh?

Youre joking, right?

 

[silver 2039]

Youre joking, right?

Making a comment on political correctness.

 

[Fugitive Sisyphus]

I'm brown. Thus I can never be rascist. A nice little benefit eh?

Yeah, it would be racists to call a brown person racist.

 

[REDY]

I'm brown. Thus I can never be rascist. A nice little benefit eh?

You made point.