Is 'choice' a choice?

[C~G]

The choice is kind of illusion.

Our brain works automatically doing the math in order to solve which is the best way for survival at that moment and we just watch it and play along.

So yes, it's predetermined based into what kind of information our brain has gathered and what kind of models of thoughts and actions it already has. Of course in the situation it can create a new model in order to make the best of it.

The nature of our conscience is the illusion with which we dabble with. "Free will" is just a word. Maybe it helps some people to create their modes of survival based into such thing.

 

[RameNoodle]

So I have a friend who is an atheist, and doesn't really believe in free will, and he has an excellent argument. He says that if God is all-knowing, then he knows the choices we will make and therefore our choices are not our own, because He already knows our choice. So, he covers both bases, making me refute either free will or the all-knowing quality of God.

 

[Pontiuth Pilate]

Free will is completely illusionary.

 

[Methos]

So I have a friend who is an atheist, and doesn't really believe in free will, and he has an excellent argument. He says that if God is all-knowing, then he knows the choices we will make and therefore our choices are not our own, because He already knows our choice. So, he covers both bases, making me refute either free will or the all-knowing quality of God.

You, or your friend to be more precise, provide a good point. In Church/Sunday School we were taught that God allowed us 'free will' to choose whether we wish to believe in Him as well as the choices we make in life. Yet, I also recall that God already knows the choices that we will make. So, does this mean we are set on a predefined course, or just that He knows the choices we make prior to us making them?

 

[Tulkas12]

So I have a friend who is an atheist, and doesn't really believe in free will, and he has an excellent argument. He says that if God is all-knowing, then he knows the choices we will make and therefore our choices are not our own, because He already knows our choice. So, he covers both bases, making me refute either free will or the all-knowing quality of God.

Its an old argument actuallly, not to denegrate your freind, but its been mulled over. It can be written away as he just realizes the choices, just because you know what will happen doesn't mean you controlled it after all. I like to believe we are a part of him and therefore our choices are his choices as we are all a little peice of God.

 

[classical_hero]

You, or your friend to be more precise, provide a good point. In Church/Sunday School we were taught that God allowed us 'free will' to choose whether we wish to believe in Him as well as the choices we make in life. Yet, I also recall that God already knows the choices that we will make. So, does this mean we are set on a predefined course, or just that He knows the choices we make prior to us making them?

You seem to be forgetting that God is outside of time so he knows all that has happened and will happen. The thing is that we do not know what will happen, so we do not know everything that will happen. It is like us saying that since we new what Hitler was going to do, that he has no free will. Free will is about us having the ability to choose when different paths are available to us.

 

[Pontiuth Pilate]

You seem to be forgetting that God is outside of time so he knows all that has happened and will happen. The thing is that we do not know what will happen, so we do not know everything that will happen. It is like us saying that since we new what Hitler was going to do, that he has no free will. Free will is about us having the ability to choose when different paths are available to us.

If God is already aware, then there is effectively no choice.

Let's say I have to choose between X and Y. God already knows I will choose X. Is it possible that I will choose Y? Clearly not. Therefore am I making a choice?

If God exists outside of time, doesn't that mean he foresaw the entire history of the universe in the moment of its creation? Didn't he foresee, at the moment of the creation of the universe, that I would choose X? Therefore am I making a choice?

Moreover God being omnipotent could have created any of an infinite variety of universes. He could have created a universe in which he foresaw me choosing Y, not X. Yet he chose to create a universe in which I choose X. So therefore, if and when I choose X, isn't it really God's choice? Basically, I have NO agency (ability to choose). All agency is God's.

If I am Hitler, and X is perpetrating the Holocaust, and Y is not perpetrating the Holocaust, I am having difficulties explaining how the Holocaust was not foreseen and approved by God in the moment he created the universe.

 

[Narz]

Free will is completely illusionary.

You can't prove it though. (and don't drag God into it, whether or not God exists has nothing at all to do with it)

I believe in free will.

People who believe in free will are generally more successful than people who don't.

I won't make any definitive statements (though I will certainly question those who do) because I am choosing not to get into an asinine argument over whether I can do what I want.

 

[Methos]

(and don't drag God into it, whether or not God exists has nothing at all to do with it)

No one said it did, it is merely being used as an example. Now if someone starts argueing whether or not God exists with these examples, than I would agree. But realize we use what we know or feel in our examples, and the one being used now fits well with the discussion.

Whether the reader is an atheist, religious, or whatever, shouldn't deter from the discussion.

 

[C~G]

People who believe in free will are generally more successful than people who don't.

Not sure of that.

Many people are succesful when they think everything is predestined to happen.

I think it's about keeping certain open mindedness in order to find the best possible solution to the current situation and also recover from it if everything goes wrong.

It's some sort of "more power to me from whenever it comes"-phenomena.
Nietzsche was right though. We do try to dominate ourselves and our enviroment, it's about will to do things whatever might happen.
It's about understanding the fact that we don't know what will happen before it actually happens.

People have to learn to live with the fact that the life is dilemma and there's no solution to it.
It's a process which you try to imagine like a mosaic piece by piece until it's over.
You should always prepare for and expect the unexpected.

Regarding the all-knowing God issue, just maybe God has simply forgotten what will happen next?

 

[Narz]

Not sure of that.

Many people are succesful when they think everything is predestined to happen.

I'm not going to go tit for tat with famous quotes from "successful" people (as success is a pretty meaningless term anyway, who can detirmine success by the man/woman himself?). Needless to say, I've read a fair amount of biographies and usually the pivotal moments in them are moments of choice. Decision. I can't argue that we are more than just biological robots but I believe it is so.

If there is no free will than someday perhaps human behavior will be able to be predicted based on genetics and the person's life experience. However I don't think that day will ever come. One reason it won't come is because of the complexity of the human mind but even if somehow all the factors could be tabulated. There's simply no accounting for the spirit of man. More than just man - life. Life always finds a way. It desires. It wants. It wills. No computer can be made to want, to will. The switch goes off and it's power down time (except in Terminator movies and one X-Files episode I saw). Until the will people deem false can be artificially created I will stand by my notion that free will does exist.

 

[C~G]

I can't argue that we are more than just biological robots but I believe it is so.

This might be surprise Narz, but I kinda agree with everything you said.
But for me "biological robots", "free will" and "destiny" are just words.
They have already meaning to us like if I would say that "man is an animal" some people would start to blame otherwise even before I can explain what I mean with the terms "man" and "animal". We have already labeled those words with such meaning that shuts down certain choices unless you try to look beyond them. IMHO same goes to such terms as I mentioned earlier.

For me saying that we are just pre-programmed biological robots is the same as saying that we are spiritual creatures trying to find the way home.

Mark my words, but they are just words.
- C~G

More than just man - life. Life always finds a way. It desires. It wants. It wills.

This is exactly how I see it also.

What I'm saying is that the will is just the will to survive and cope with everything that might happen. Simply, life evolves.

Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.
-Anais Nin

 

[Narz]

This moment, at 4:03AM I cannot think of how to respond. I suppose I was not meant to come up with anything clever or resonate at this time.

Simply said, I think we're on the same page. I kinda believe in destiny actually along with free will (they seem contradictory I know). What I mean to say is that... well, life is like a movie with a basic plot but no lines and no set amount of time/characters. Certain basic things must happen to further the plot but the sequence in which they must happen is very loose. Certain connections must be made, certain lessons must be learned but there is no curriculum or rather we attract to us the curriculum we need as we go along.

Got to check the stove now. I'm making some palm wax candles. Hope it's in my cards to make a profit off them. However, I plan to make intelligent choices to help destiny along. We're all on the road to nirvana but thru resistance and chasing false pots of gold we can certainly prolong the journey.

 

[Pyrite]

"You seem to be forgetting that God is outside of time "

This is a pretty bold statement. I seem to be forgetting where the bible delved into the FOURTH DIMENSION. But anyway, that seems like a cool chapter, got a referance?

"Simply said, I think we're on the same page. I kinda believe in destiny actually along with free will (they seem contradictory I know). What I mean to say is that... well, life is like a movie with a basic plot but no lines and no set amount of time/characters. Certain basic things must happen to further the plot but the sequence in which they must happen is very loose. Certain connections must be made, certain lessons must be learned but there is no curriculum or rather we attract to us the curriculum we need as we go along."

That wasn't simply said. What are you talking about?

 

[ChrTh]

The "God outside of time" is an argument that CS Lewis puts forth rather convincingly in Mere Christianity (I'm sure it's elsewhere as well). I think Classical Hero is right, though. Just because we read a history of the Battle of Stalingrad doesn't mean the battle turns out the way it does.

The one thing about "God knowing everything" that I have a slight issue with is the semantics of "knowing". Does God actually know, or does he have the ability to know? And if he has the ability to know, does that guarantee he does know? Does God have Free Will? Could God be so confident in His creation that he doesn't feel the need to look? (Granted, one who believes that God has repeatedly intervened in human affairs would say it's obvious that God knows. Those of a more Deist bent might be able to pursue the argument more)

 

[Sidhe]

If God doesn't exist there is free will if he does then were imprisoned in a cage of predeterminism without even knowing it, well I do, but no one believes me.

All I can say if you start a thread which is meant to mock the whole choice debate you better be sure to expect repurcusions this ones much better than mine I'd like to say. Is their a choice about choice and do we get to make that choice when it comes down to it? I don't know for sure, is it multiple choice? Or an essay question?

 

[classical_hero]

If God is already aware, then there is effectively no choice.

Let's say I have to choose between X and Y. God already knows I will choose X. Is it possible that I will choose Y? Clearly not. Therefore am I making a choice?

If God exists outside of time, doesn't that mean he foresaw the entire history of the universe in the moment of its creation? Didn't he foresee, at the moment of the creation of the universe, that I would choose X? Therefore am I making a choice?

Moreover God being omnipotent could have created any of an infinite variety of universes. He could have created a universe in which he foresaw me choosing Y, not X. Yet he chose to create a universe in which I choose X. So therefore, if and when I choose X, isn't it really God's choice? Basically, I have NO agency (ability to choose). All agency is God's.

If I am Hitler, and X is perpetrating the Holocaust, and Y is not perpetrating the Holocaust, I am having difficulties explaining how the Holocaust was not foreseen and approved by God in the moment he created the universe.

The choice is up to us, not God. He does not tell us to this and that and when he does say that we should be doing things, most people will do the exact opposite. Because God knows, since he has seen all time before and thus he will know everything, but we are inside of time and thus things are happening to us right now that we do. We do not know exactly what will happen in the future thus the future is not set for us because we are continually living it. I'll go back to my illustration. Are you going to say that Hitler has no free will since we know exactly what he did? This is the basic premise of what God knows. He knows everything because for him it is the past and thus he would have seen it.

 

[BCLG100]

Someone needs to go rewatch the Matrix films!

I'll use an example to illustrate what I'm discussing here:

A man walks into a bar, and decides to order a margarita instead of his typical martini. He may think he's made a choice born of free will, but in actuality he didn't: earlier in the day he heard "It's 5 o'clock somewhere" and made a subconscious connection to Jimmy Buffett and the song Margaritaville and this led him to order a Margarita tonight.

However, he may have not heard the song, but still chosen to order a Margarita, or he may have heard the song but still chose his normal Martini. Etc. Different philosophers may reach different conclusions, and I was polling our Civfanatic philosophers for their opinion.

And of course, the question becomes, if you or I have a Margarita tomorrow, is it because I posted this example?

i dont really like margaritas tbh, however im not sure why i choose what i do. I guess coming from differing upbringings may affect your decisions on some things.

 

[Sidhe]

The choice is up to us, not God. He does not tell us to this and that and when he does say that we should be doing things, most people will do the exact opposite. Because God knows, since he has seen all time before and thus he will know everything, but we are inside of time and thus things are happening to us right now that we do. We do not know exactly what will happen in the future thus the future is not set for us because we are continually living it. I'll go back to my illustration. Are you going to say that Hitler has no free will since we know exactly what he did? This is the basic premise of what God knows. He knows everything because for him it is the past and thus he would have seen it.

I'm sure I've had this discussion with Classical Hero before, he is certain that he is much cleverer than the religous scholars and has worked out a reason why humanity is not forced into a cage of predeterminism with Gods omniscience, if we have no choice in what we do whether we know it or you imply it with gods perfect knowledge, then we have no choice, free will is a sham, an unconcious prison maybe but it still means nothing we can ever do can be changed. Either you accept that or you redifine the terms of what free will means, or you accept that God cannot be omniscient and free will existant, or you accept God doesn't exist, even better go look up the debate and see if you can figure something out they haven't thought of in the last 2000 years that allows free will with divine omniscience, who knows it could happen?

 

[classical_hero]

I'm sure I've had this discussion with Classical Hero before, he is certain that he is much cleverer than the religous scholars and has worked out a reason why humanity is not forced into a cage of predeterminism with Gods omniscience, if we have no choice in what we do whether we know it or you imply it with gods perfect knowledge, then we have no choice, free will is a sham, an unconcious prison maybe but it still means nothing we can ever do can be changed. Either you accept that or you redifine the terms of what free will means, or you accept that God cannot be omniscient and free will existant, or you accept God doesn't exist, even better go look up the debate and see if you can figure something out they haven't thought of in the last 2000 years that allows free will with divine omniscience, who knows it could happen?

How would we know what we are going to do unless someone reveals it to us? It is only once we know of our future that we do not have a choice in it, but until then, we have free will unitl that day.