Is it just me or is monument start crazy now?

[walkerjks]

Not when playing Siam*. In fact, any other civ won't work, as universities aren't cultural buildings. Somehow, since Wats are cultural, they count for the Legalism SP (according to the earlier post). That is, at first glance with no play testing, insanely unbalanced (did I emphasize that enough?).

*Edit to add - Wats don't require libraries, which is partially what makes Siam a great choice for Science and Diplomatic victories - they can tech really fast with very small cities (aka ICS).

 

[Ironlyon]

It will build a Monastary before it builds a Wat if you have the required Luxury nearby and haven't built the Monastary yet. you will have the tech due to it being a pre req for Education anyways.

Just tried this and it put 3 wats, 1 Monastary in my cities.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Not when playing Siam*. In fact, any other civ won't work, as universities aren't cultural buildings. Somehow, since Wats are cultural, they count for the Legalism SP (according to the earlier post). That is, at first glance with no play testing, insanely unbalanced (did I emphasize that enough?).

*Edit to add - Wats don't require libraries, which is partially what makes Siam a great choice for Science and Diplomatic victories - they can tech really fast with very small cities (aka ICS).

Ah, I assumed they required libraries like the University. Which would still make them good but close this loophole.

 

[formivore]

The wats actually work?!

Hehe I wonder if someone actually decided to allow them, or if it was an oversight. I suppose legalism could just be using some internal AI list for culture buildings. That would explain why Askia's mosques preempt monuments, since they have as good culture/hammers and the comp presumably builds them first if it is trying to run culture.

Anyone know if public schools work? Not nearly as useful (you would have to build opera houses) but still.

 

[Calouste]

Sometimes yes; sometimes not. But if the tile you want it to work is 2 tiles away instead of 3 tiles you have a much better shot at culture naturally expanding there, particularly if the tile isn't a resource.
In any case a view of the city buy tile mode will tell you which tile(s) your city is currently prioritizing for cultural expansion.

?

Cultural expansion favors resource tiles over non-resource tiles, not the other way around. A bit too much even, as it at the moment will pick a resource tile in the 4th ring (which you can't work) over non-resource tiles that are closer.

The problem is not really getting the resource tiles, you can get those via cultural expansion, helped with some strategic buying of second ring tiles next to third ring resources. It's getting hills and forests after you have already got all the resource tiles, they have low priority in cultural expansion but are the tiles worth working early in the game.

 

[Ironlyon]

Ok so I tried this with Siam/Immortal/Standard/Continents with ancient ruins turned off because I wanted to take the randomness out of it.

NC first
Tradition- Liberty - Citizen - Merit (GE rushed Stonehenge) - Collective rule for 4th city - Legalism

I don't remember how many turns that took but it was very quick. I find that I am way behind in economy and Science and am struggling with that along with unhappiness due to having to focus all money and building on temples/monuments. When the 3 wats finished it put me at 76 Beakers/turn. Maybe I just had a crap map or maybe it does sacrifice too much to get that initial culture boost.

My continent has me/China/America. I was leading them and was optimistic until I finally got to meet the others, who all double us in score 16% ahead in Tech.

Now at turn 150 I am at 36% Lit, the highest AI is 52%. Egypt has built 13 wonders (all but 2 available so far) is 6 policies ahead of me including the unlocks. I do usually lag behind in tech in immortal/deity for a while at the start, but never 20% behind.

Edit : Initially was only able to sell off one resource to my starting neighbours. Along with open borders as often as possible to both and cleaned up 3 barb camps. In terms of early finance.

 

[joncnunn]

Perhaps I should have clarified to getting the resource on the 3rd ring when there's no resource in the second ring adjoining it.

Yes, once the city finally takes in the second ring no resource tile adjoining to the 3rd ring, it does take in that resource quickly.

But if not; your waiting ages for it to get around to that adjoining intermediate tile while it continues to pick other tiles also in the second ring (that in isolation would have been better). (Unless you have cash to buy that intermediate tile)

?

Cultural expansion favors resource tiles over non-resource tiles, not the other way around. A bit too much even, as it at the moment will pick a resource tile in the 4th ring (which you can't work) over non-resource tiles that are closer.

The problem is not really getting the resource tiles, you can get those via cultural expansion, helped with some strategic buying of second ring tiles next to third ring resources. It's getting hills and forests after you have already got all the resource tiles, they have low priority in cultural expansion but are the tiles worth working early in the game.

 

[Martin Alvito]

You'll need cash to buy some buildings and happiness will be an issue at higher difficulty levels, but at first glance, this looks like a ridiculously fast way to get 4 unis (well, wats) on the ground early.

Forget cash. I usually build Colosseums with before starting on Wats. If you time things right, you can start on the Wats very shortly after Education lands via RA. Instead of building the Colosseums to fuel the second wave, build a Monument and a Temple instead, then drop Legalism once all of that is ready. Then push Rationalism and Secularism (and Freedom?) by buying some Cultural allies while spamming Settlers from the capital for the second wave.

You should find that you can buy the 3 RAs for the Astronomy slingshot and just use to get the Monuments and Temples up at the right time. After that, just juggle as needed with buildings to expand.

 

[vexing]

Anyone know if public schools work? Not nearly as useful (you would have to build opera houses) but still.

i suspect it simply chooses the highest raw culture producing building available in the city, so if you have the tech for public schools, universities and opera houses built it'll give you public schools. if that's true you could not get broadcast towers even if you had museums and radio... they provide no raw culture.

 

[walkerjks]

With very minimal attempts to optimize things on a silver-heavy start, Legalism provided me with 3 Wats on turn 92. Education was actually turn 77 through an RA. Legalism was the 5th social policy (Went Tradition -> Liberty -> Collective Rule -> Citizenship -> Legalism). I suspect had I not gone Tradition first (and not got a culture ruins), I could have timed it better so Legalism would have been a bit earlier (and closer to Education) as the 4th SP.

A couple citires aren't quite ready to take advantage of both specialist slots yet. I guess getting monument/temple built while still growing to size 4 is harder than I thought. With a more aggressive cash approach (selling open borders and strategic resources), I likely could have allied a maritime CS, which would have put the secondary city pops at 4 allowing them to immediately fill both specialist slots.

Watch where you settle, as incense or wine will create a monastery rather than a wat (hence the 3 wats rather than 4).

Overall, this seems like an incredibly powerful opening for Siam. Base science is healthy. GSs are going to start popping out quickly. Base culture is also surprisingly healthy at this point, though that may cost you on Rationalism tree as that will suddenly be the 5th (or 6th or 7th) SP rather than 3rd or 4th (so it will cost a lot more).

 

[vexing]

i suspect it simply chooses the highest raw culture producing building available in the city, so if you have the tech for public schools, universities and opera houses built it'll give you public schools. if that's true you could not get broadcast towers even if you had museums and radio... they provide no raw culture.

i tested with india, my assumptions were correct.

you cannot get broadcast towers, you can get public schools,
if a city has walls and nothing else, it'll get monument over mughal fort (both 2 culture)

 

[elthrasher]

I was able to pop four wats on deity around turn 90 despite a little misunderstanding with some barbarians and one of my settlers. My main problem was the maintenance costs of four monuments, four temples and four wats was just killing me. I was selling luxuries as fast as I could and trying to keep alliances with three city-states (got a bit lucky on some barb quests). I got in markets, but it only helped a little. I was okay, though unable to afford as many RAs as I wanted, until Napoleon started bidding against my city-states. I got up to infantry first, but don't have the money to field a large army, bring home my city-states and sign new RAs.

Of course part of the problem was the AI settling right on top of me so there was nowhere I could put new cities. I had a really central start with no easy blocks. Any suggestions on how to make this work? Should I have gone to war with longswords? Try again and hope for a better map with more elbow room?

 

[walkerjks]

It might make sense to sell the temples and/or monuments once you pop the wats.

I also need to play around a bit to see if popping 2 wats (3 might be a stretch) at turn 72 or so (as soon as you get education) is better than popping 4 at turn 90. Delaying until the pre-reqs are in place in all 4 cities is giving up a lot of bulbs and GP points.

 

[The Mike]

I've found that barreling through the Tradition (Tradition->Legalism->Landed Elite) tree while building the National College is a very strong opener. In fact, I'm thinking about skipping Liberty altogether in my next game, since the NC allows Piety to open up pretty darn fast.

Also, skipping Stonehenge just feels smarter and more effective every time I do it. The Oracle still rules though, especially since it doesn't increase policy cost (like Stonehenge does indirectly) and it becomes available when I've got more infrastructure set up.

Basically, after the NC is built, you are primed for some highly productive REX. I think getting Landed Elite early is more important than we realize. My next three cities get the +2 food, +15% growth and a free monument (not to mention cheaper tile acquisition).

I tried mucking around with delaying Legalism to get free Temples, but I think the cost of delaying Landed Elite, as well as the sudden increase in building maintenance makes this sub optimal (Siam and Songhai notwithstanding, of course).

 

[RealHuhn]

[...] My main problem was the maintenance costs of four monuments, four temples and four wats was just killing me. [...]

Same for me. Four wats at turn 90 but negative 15-20 GPT (without focus on gold). Of course, teching speed was awesome (bronze and ironworking 1 turn each ) but two specialists per city slowed down production, I had to avoid growth due to happiness and I couldn't buy or upgrade anything.

I've found that barreling through the Tradition (Tradition->Legalism->Landed Elite) tree while building the National College is a very strong opener. In fact, I'm thinking about skipping Liberty altogether in my next game, since the NC allows Piety to open up pretty darn fast.

Also, skipping Stonehenge just feels smarter and more effective every time I do it. The Oracle still rules though, especially since it doesn't increase policy cost (like Stonehenge does indirectly) and it becomes available when I've got more infrastructure set up.

Basically, after the NC is built, you are primed for some highly productive REX. I think getting Landed Elite early is more important than we realize. My next three cities get the +2 food, +15% growth and a free monument (not to mention cheaper tile acquisition).

I tried mucking around with delaying Legalism to get free Temples, but I think the cost of delaying Landed Elite, as well as the sudden increase in building maintenance makes this sub optimal (Siam and Songhai notwithstanding, of course).

Yes, Landed Elite is the best early policy! You can work more hammer tiles, build granaries and watermills, and work even more hammers. I often research engineering first and build aqueducts and/or workshops before universities because whenever I beeline education, my cities don't have enough production.

Although in my opinion, tradition is better for a 3-city NC strategy (buying the library in the 3rd city).
Border expansion is just awesome after the free monuments and you get much more total production this way.
Producing settlers without Liberty is just too slow for a NC first build.

 

[elthrasher]

It might make sense to sell the temples and/or monuments once you pop the wats.

I think what would have helped me more is getting another round of settlers out to claim more luxuries and work some trading posts and build some markets. I always find I have a great economy if I have a big empire and it's tough if I have a small empire.

I'm not sure I'm good enough yet to have 8 cities and 4 wats by turn 90 on deity. I'd go down to immortal, but I can already beat immortal blindfolded with one arm behind my back....

 

[Martin Alvito]

I'm not sure that you need or want 8 cities if you're landing all of the Wats that early. I think you only need six to max Great Scientist production given Hagia and Democracy, and it may be better to stay at four for SP purposes. I'll have to play with the math a bit.

I was able to pop four wats on deity around turn 90 despite a little misunderstanding with some barbarians and one of my settlers. My main problem was the maintenance costs of four monuments, four temples and four

I was able to get it all just after 80 in what MadDjinn calls a Skillderado game. The cities weren't the production workhorses I'd like, although they were stacked with luxuries.

Buy the Temple in the bottleneck. This helps quite a bit.

It might make sense to sell the temples and/or monuments once you pop the wats.

I wouldn't sell the Culture buildings. They're expensive, but you're going to want 3 Culture per turn from the specialist slot over a single Hammer. Add it all up and you're looking at 24 Culture for 12/turn, which is better than buying another Cultural since there's no cost up front.

I think you're going to need to max out on RAs right from the get-go for maximum speed. If all you do is block Bronze and Masonry/Construction and research relevant Classical prereqs and Theology, a full round of RAs will snag Education and Chivalry as well as two Renaissance techs. The next round will bag Scientific Theory, and you might be able to force Steam Power with Oxford and Porcelain Tower so that you can actually build the Public Schools.

Making war for Workers is vital.

 

[ras9929]

Ok so I tried this with Siam/Immortal/Standard/Continents with ancient ruins turned off because I wanted to take the randomness out of it.

NC first
Tradition- Liberty - Citizen - Merit (GE rushed Stonehenge) - Collective rule for 4th city - Legalism

I don't remember how many turns that took but it was very quick. I find that I am way behind in economy and Science and am struggling with that along with unhappiness due to having to focus all money and building on temples/monuments. When the 3 wats finished it put me at 76 Beakers/turn. Maybe I just had a crap map or maybe it does sacrifice too much to get that initial culture boost.

My continent has me/China/America. I was leading them and was optimistic until I finally got to meet the others, who all double us in score 16% ahead in Tech.

Now at turn 150 I am at 36% Lit, the highest AI is 52%. Egypt has built 13 wonders (all but 2 available so far) is 6 policies ahead of me including the unlocks. I do usually lag behind in tech in immortal/deity for a while at the start, but never 20% behind.

Edit : Initially was only able to sell off one resource to my starting neighbours. Along with open borders as often as possible to both and cleaned up 3 barb camps. In terms of early finance.

I stacked the deck and went abundant resources in my Wat/Legalism game. I was able to sell of 3 or 4 pretty quickly

 

[elthrasher]

I'm not sure that you need or want 8 cities if you're landing all of the Wats that early. I think you only need six to max Great Scientist production given Hagia and Democracy, and it may be better to stay at four for SP purposes. I'll have to play with the math a bit.

So how do I deal with money? I'm going to need troops eventually, right? In my game I have three silver plus marble, whales and sugar, 8 iron, 4 horses, 7 coal and 3 oil and I've been selling them for top prices as well as open borders quite a lot. I've hit a point where I know war is coming. I can't buy any military. I can't afford another RA. I'm in danger of losing my city-states.

I was thinking more cities would bring in more cash. I was almost able to settle some cotton but Napoleon got there fast.

Do you think I got unlucky in resources? I certainly have done better than that in four cities but I've also done worse.

 

[MadDjinn]

I was able to get it all just after 80 in what MadDjinn calls a Skillderado game. The cities weren't the production workhorses I'd like, although they were stacked with luxuries.

To be fair, TheMeinTeam said it first on one of the polycasts. I just thought it was funny and appropriate.

Skilldorado does make things faster though. As long as you spend it wisely.

Otherwise... I'm definitely adding the Wats to my list of things needing a fix, for game balance purposes. It's beyond balanced to allow a single civ the option (not even a UA or function of the UB) to get those so easily. (no libraries, no build - use Legalism)