Is It Moral to Eat Meat?

Blanket statements like that are inane. Under some conditions, eating meat is counter-productive.

For modern post-industrial societies, where most food is factory farmed, meat production may indeed be counter-productive. There are good reasons for city dwellers to reduce, if not eliminate, meat from their diets, but such arguments don't hold across the whole of human society.

Pastoralists and hunter-gatherers, who by definition cause less environmental disruption and consume fewer resources than even a vegan, bicycle-riding, solar-powered urbanite, depend on meat to maintain themselves and their ways of life. Would it be more productive to truck/ship/air-drop tofu and sprouts to self-sufficient Mongol sheep-herders, pig-raising New Guinea highlanders, or seal-hunting Inuit traditionalists?

Your points are valid but you may be forgetting that the main thing that made meat-eating natives so sustainable if their incredibly low numbers.

You say "made meat-eating natives so sustainable" as though such cultures are already extinct. There are still plenty of people on this planet that must cultivate/gather/hunt all of their own sustenance. For such people, any debate over the morality of their choice of dinner is utterly invalid.

I understand, and agree with, many of the arguments for a meatless or reduced meat diet for those of us in the developed world, but I regularly hear brainless vegan/vege fanatics (pace Narz, not accusing you of being one) insist that either:

a. such people would be happier/healthier if only they became vegan/vege nevermind the impossibility of large-scale soya farming in regions with poor soil or the ecological havoc to be wrought if, for instance, forest-dwelling hunter-gatherers clear-cut yet more forest for crop production.

or

b. such people shouldn't live where they do, which strikes me as arrogant and bigoted. Further, should such people move to over-croweded urban areas, thus consuming even more resouces and contributing more to environmental degradation, just so they can meet a particular and narrowly-defined sense of morality?

The resource argument for conscientious dietary choices in our modern, urbanized world are compelling, but it's not as simple as "vegan/vege good, omnivore bad". A diet with a low environmental impact is first predicated upon one's environment. Eat what's available in one's local environment. I can't tell you how many times I've been lectured on the immorality of my taste for lobster, a taste I only indulge when in Maine, by some ninny who thinks nothing of living on bananas and pinapples in New England. Similarly, I gorge myself on bananas and mangos when in Guatemala or Thailand, but I wouldn't dream of eating one in Boston.

Also, the major resource/environmental slam against meat consumption is not meat eating, or even meat production, itself, but industrialized, factory farming techniques that can be devastating even when used to produce fruits, grains, and vegetables. Diversion of rivers to irrigation, pesticide and fertilizer run-off, land-clearance to expand cropland all mean that poorly-planned agriculture can result in wheat or tomatoes or cabbage that have, in effect, unintentionally killed off as many animals through habitat destruction as a well-structured, small-scale livestock operation does intentionally.
 
Also, the major resource/environmental slam against meat consumption is not meat eating, or even meat production, itself, but industrialized, factory farming techniques that can be devastating even when used to produce fruits, grains, and vegetables. Diversion of rivers to irrigation, pesticide and fertilizer run-off, land-clearance to expand cropland all mean that poorly-planned agriculture can result in wheat or tomatoes or cabbage that have, in effect, unintentionally killed off as many animals through habitat destruction as a well-structured, small-scale livestock operation does intentionally.

The last part of this actually reminded me of Maddox's slogan "Wheat is murder" from a (as per usual) funny article. The title was "Guiltless grill? Is there another kind?". Funny to read. Not exactly sure how true it all is though.
 
Really? So the same would go for genocide? I guess the Holocuast was wrong for us but right for the Nazis?

The same for you. I don't think you think that the Holocaust was right for the Nazis. I think you think that it's wrong period. Even you, Sharwood, Mr. Relativist.

The problem with relativism is that it's often used to encourage people to be more tolerant of and sensitive towards other cultures. Relativists often present themselves as the defenders of openmindedness, equality, and freedom, and those who oppose relativism are often portrayed as arrogant. That's what I think you guys are doing. You guys are trying very hard to appear sensitive and tolerant.

But only someone who rejects relativism can consider tolerance and sensitivity universally applicable virtues. To the group of religious zealots who believe that tolerance is bad and must execute all those with whom they disagree, you would say: tolerance is bad for them and they are right to execute dissenters!

Surely such a leap of logic you guys cannot stomach.
The problem is that there's no way we could know what is right and wrong because all definitions can be shown debatable and questionable.

And I'm relativist, or more accurately subjectivist on the matters of what's right and what's wrong. However that doesn't mean that we should tolerate some things because there are benefits of not tolerating them, even when there's no right and wrong.
 
You say "made meat-eating natives so sustainable" as though such cultures are already extinct. There are still plenty of people on this planet that must cultivate/gather/hunt all of their own sustenance. For such people, any debate over the morality of their choice of dinner is utterly invalid.

I understand, and agree with, many of the arguments for a meatless or reduced meat diet for those of us in the developed world, but I regularly hear brainless vegan/vege fanatics (pace Narz, not accusing you of being one) insist that either:

a. such people would be happier/healthier if only they became vegan/vege nevermind the impossibility of large-scale soya farming in regions with poor soil or the ecological havoc to be wrought if, for instance, forest-dwelling hunter-gatherers clear-cut yet more forest for crop production.

or

b. such people shouldn't live where they do, which strikes me as arrogant and bigoted. Further, should such people move to over-croweded urban areas, thus consuming even more resouces and contributing more to environmental degradation, just so they can meet a particular and narrowly-defined sense of morality?

The resource argument for conscientious dietary choices in our modern, urbanized world are compelling, but it's not as simple as "vegan/vege good, omnivore bad". A diet with a low environmental impact is first predicated upon one's environment. Eat what's available in one's local environment. I can't tell you how many times I've been lectured on the immorality of my taste for lobster, a taste I only indulge when in Maine, by some ninny who thinks nothing of living on bananas and pinapples in New England. Similarly, I gorge myself on bananas and mangos when in Guatemala or Thailand, but I wouldn't dream of eating one in Boston.

Also, the major resource/environmental slam against meat consumption is not meat eating, or even meat production, itself, but industrialized, factory farming techniques that can be devastating even when used to produce fruits, grains, and vegetables. Diversion of rivers to irrigation, pesticide and fertilizer run-off, land-clearance to expand cropland all mean that poorly-planned agriculture can result in wheat or tomatoes or cabbage that have, in effect, unintentionally killed off as many animals through habitat destruction as a well-structured, small-scale livestock operation does intentionally.
Miles, I agree with pretty much everything you said. :thumbsup:

The only thing I want to respond to is the first comment. I'm not meaning to treat indigenous meat eating cultures as if they're already gone. But the sad fact is, they may have to change their lifestyles whether they like it or not. Shifting climate factors, seafood depletion and other factors may drive them to have to consider other means of survival or at least supplementation of their traditional diets (ideally while still preserving the best of their cultures).
 
It is immoral and ignorant, and it shows a blatent inability of people to do what is best for them and the ecosystem - despite any amount of educational opportunity.

Third world family farms that use animals as food storage (capital) and insurance (against drought and personal disasters) are different. In that case, there is a survival need and a limit to the viability of long term sustainable development. A mixed short-term/long-term strategy is more reasonable when actualy starving to death is a possible consequence of plans. Using meat for sustinance is short-term planning (efficienct use of resources and eco-degredation).

And then there is the perpetuation of the acceptance of cruelty in factory farms.

Eating is one's first violent act everyday (excluding psychos who may do violent stuff before breakfast). It is our moral obligation to reduce the violence.
 
It is immoral and ignorant, and it shows a blatent inability of people to do what is best for them and the ecosystem - despite any amount of educational opportunity.

But it tastes...so...good! I agree with what you said, but I can't do it!

Even the best vegetarian food I've had (generally thai, indian, or italian dishes) is only as good as moderately good meat dishes (e.g. a pretty good steak). I have not met a vegetarian dish yet that can even begin to compete with the best meat dishes (i.e. an expertly prepared, high-quality steak). :(

And it hasn't been for lack of trying. I've tried lots of vegetarian dishes, both stuff I've prepared myself and stuff eaten at restaurants.

I imagine that once one spends enough time away from meat, you lose or at least lessen your taste for it, but I can't wait! The palates of extreme raw vegans are horrible anyways. All you have to do is mash up some random sampling of cacao, durian, a crap ton of fruit, and various veggies, and they'll swear its better than the best cooked food on earth. :lol:
 
But it tastes...so...good! I agree with what you said, but I can't do it!

Even the best vegetarian food I've had (generally thai, indian, or italian dishes) is only as good as moderately good meat dishes (e.g. a pretty good steak). I have not met a vegetarian dish yet that can even begin to compete with the best meat dishes (i.e. an expertly prepared, high-quality steak). :(

And it hasn't been for lack of trying. I've tried lots of vegetarian dishes, both stuff I've prepared myself and stuff eaten at restaurants.

I imagine that once one spends enough time away from meat, you lose or at least lessen your taste for it, but I can't wait! The palates of extreme raw vegans are horrible anyways. All you have to do is mash up some random sampling of cacao, durian, a crap ton of fruit, and various veggies, and they'll swear its better than the best cooked food on earth. :lol:

It takes time to change one's tastes.

For example: we have many fond memories of family barbaques, where family was together and happy. This emotional attachment to a food is the basis for most (or all) of our tastes (see also: 'comfort food'). Eat something for the first time unexpectedly (I thought red fish eggs were red hots) or have a bad experience in the presence of a certain food/meal, and you have negative connotations with that food. It works the same in reverse. Unfortunately, since meat 3 times a day has been a standard America diet for many years, most of our positive food experiences are associated with meat.

We are not really so fond of cutting up and barbaqueing animals with the same intelligence as our pets. We are fond of the memories it brings.

Have a few nice vegetarian meals with friends and your tastes will begin to change. It's not just about doing without the meat (thus reducing its cognitive grip on us). It's also developing new tastes through new positive experiences. You cannot change tastes with only 1/2 of the equation.

Anyway, it's nice to read someone who is rational about the subject, yet eats meat.

For personal and ecologic health, you should try for organic meat products and byproducts when possible. Unlike vegetables, there is actually a significant personal health impact.
 
Ecofarm said:
For example: we have many fond memories of family barbaques, where family was together and happy. This emotional attachment to a food is the basis for most (or all) of our tastes (see also: 'comfort food'). Eat something for the first time unexpectedly (I thought red fish eggs were red hots) or have a bad experience in the presence of a certain food/meal, and you have negative connotations with that food. It works the same in reverse.
While I do agree that this probably has a huge bearing on what we eat, I have to say that I don't entirely agree with it.

I don't remember many barbaques with my family. When we did, afterwards our family generally used to fight or not speak at all while eating.

I associate more with the taste of the food. My family gets together at Christmas every year and cooks crab legs and everybody is having a great time (myself included, though I don't eat them). "Sea spiders" make me want to hurl (even the mere scent).
 
You probably had a negative experience with sea spiders. Perhaps it was when you were young and you do not remember it. Could be a fishing dock (like NY's fish market) or any sort of encounter. Also, the post-drinking (presumably the source of bad attitudes) barbaque memories may be more recent and less influencial than the years before you noticed the negative stuff.

Of course, I can't prove my theory to be 100% correct and I respect your skepticism.
 
You bet your sweet bippy the Holocaust was right for the Nazis. As far as they were concerned, the Jews were a blight, and getting rid of them would make the world a better place. From their perspective, it would be immoral NOT to destroy the Jews.


I am open-minded. I don't want other people to be, except for a small minority of people I can debate subjects with in my spare time. I want most people to simply nod their heads and do exactly what I tell them. Makes things easier. And I don't believe those who aren't relativistic are arrogant, just closed-minded. And I'm not trying to appear anything. I believe every damn word I say, unless I'm joking, which I'm not.


I can stomach it just fine. Stop trying to tell me what I can and can't do. It's annoying, and it is arrogant to believe you know what I'm thinking better than I do.

And LesCanadiens, apparently so, if you're a closed-minded religious type.

...I'm just absolutely incredulous. You believe that the mass genocide of people was morally right for the Nazis? You condone this action? That's terrible.

This just confirms my views that relativists just want to appear open-minded. And in fact you appear to believe the same way too. I don't know if you're just saying outrageous things or if you truly, truly believe that it was justified for the genocide of 8 million people, but I'm willing to bet it's the former. I don't think people can have such a perverted method of thought.

How is it immoral for them not to kill the Jews? Gosh, I just can't wrap my brain around that thought.

Thanks Ecofarm, for your posts. :D
 
You don't understand LightFang; he's saying that from the Nazi perspective it was right to kill the Jews, not from his perspective. He's saying something that we should all know: no one really does anything if they genuinely believe it to be moral. Even an act such as the holocaust, perceived as it is by a vast majority of the world's population as immoral, can be viewed as moral from certain perspectives. The Nazis thought they were doing a good thing, even though we think otherwise. People will only do something they perceive is right, or at least one in which the good outweighs the bad.

Understanding =| sympathizing.
 
Right. But if to them it was justified, then that makes the act right! So he's implicitly condoning the action!
 
Relativism should be a mandatory class in highschool, entitled:

Apologism 101: "They really thought they were doing the right thing!"

Sure they did.

People know right from wrong. They are willing to do wrong if it benefits them.

How does this relate to vegetarianism? I suppose in the need for 3rd worlders to use meat and 1st worlders not to. However, 3rd worlders who eat meat are, in fact, doing the right thing. They need to eat and they don't have a supermarket with diverse sources of (local and organic, preferably) proteins.

Thus, the moral relativism of 1st vs 3rd world meat consumption is very real. However, the idea that evil people have good intentions is dumb. We have to be careful not to cross the line into apologism with the relativity of morals.

I'm not apologising for 3rd world meat consumption. I am recognizing the different circumstances and thus moral implications. This is different than saying that the Nazis honestly believed that they were not engaged in evil for personal benefit. There is no circumstance that effectively justifies genocide. Just as there is no circumstance that justifies targeting civilians. No moral relativism there. Just plain wrong. And they knew it/know it. Just like Saddam knew damn well that slaughtering 250k kurds with chemical weapons was wrong. Personal agendas that supercede basic human rights does not constitute moral relativism. It constitutes evil.


Well, that's quite a mess I've created. Can we just go back to vegetarian stuff?
 
Right. But if to them it was justified, then that makes the act right! So he's implicitly condoning the action!
I didn't condone anything Lightfang. Pull your head out of your backside. I'm saying that from the POV of the Nazis, genocide was a good thing. They genuinely believed they were doing the right thing, eliminating a disease from the gene pool. I don't condone genocide, and I can't think of a single situation off the top of my head where it would be a good thing.
 
It is moral to eat meat, because the last thing I want is to be a vegetarian and have my farts not smell.
 
It is moral to eat meat, because the last thing I want is to be a vegetarian and have my farts not smell.

You have to be vegan for your farts to stop smelling. There's alot of sulfur in eggs and cheese.

And, sometimes, I do miss being able to make a good stink. But mostly I'm happy to be able to quietly fart in class, in elevators, on trains, during sex, etc... without disturbing anyone. When a fart is unruly and makes a sound, the woman I am with almost invariably says "I'm glad your farts do not stink". I don't think, ever, one has said "man, I wish your farts stunk!"

And then there is leaving a bathroom without worrying that someone might go in right after you... Especially at parties.

Quite an unexpected benefit (I had no idea it would happen and had to look up why it was happening), even if I am left unarmed in stinky fart contests.
 
It is immoral and ignorant, and it shows a blatent inability of people to do what is best for them and the ecosystem - despite any amount of educational opportunity.

Agreed, though I'd say our addiction to the comforts of modern living - the internal combustion engine, electricity, plastics, and air-conditioning in particular - is a far more egregious assault on the ecosystem than meat-consumption in and of itself. Where meat - or fresh fruit, for that matter - consumption relies on such is where the damage is done, not in pulling a trout out of a local stream or raising chickens in your backyard.

In fact, the single greatest injury we as a species have inflicted upon nature has been overpopulation. This overpopulation is the direct result of our ancestors switch from a relatively meat-intensive hunter/gatherer diet, which constricted our capacity for population growth, to a grain-based agricultural one, which has not only facilitated, but encouraged rapid population expansion to provide the labor pool that agriculture demands. The switch to agriculture sparked a vicious cycle of land clearance (read: habitat destruction) for increased grain-production which led to population growth which demanded yet more land clearance, and so on. The great forests of Europe, and the animal inhabitants therein, were not lost to grazing land for fast-food hamburgers; they were lost to the cultivation of wheat or rye or barley.

Add to the above the "green revolution" of the 20th Century, with its emphasis on monoculture, and even more environmental degradation has come about in the quest to produce ever more grain. Monoculture requires intensive use of pesticides and fertilizers, reduces biodiversity, and relies heavily upon irrigation which can lead to salinization of farmland, destruction of riverine habitats, and depletion of underground aquifers. Until very recently, grain-consumption has done more environmental harm and, has quite possibly driven more species to extinction indirectly than has meat-consumption.

Now that we've reached our current population levels, what's to be done? Barring the traditional remedy - population crash due to plague/famine - or a radically inhumane program of purposeful population reduction/extermination, we need to modify both our food-consumption and our food-production behavior. This does not mean simply forswearing meat. It means returning to polyculture to produce our grains, our fruits, our vegetables. It means eating what's available LOCALLY and IN SEASON - there is no virtue in eating tofu if it has to be trucked in from a thousand miles away when there is a, hopefully organic, meat source nearby. It means eating less resource intensive protein souces, whether vegetarian or not. It means getting used to food sources that First Worlders find repulsive such as grasshoppers, termites, insect grubs and larvae - in other words, a primate's natural protein foods - that are rapidly replenishable with minimal resources. Most importantly, as consumers, it means to be willing to spend the money necessary to make environmentally sound food production, animal and otherwise, financially viable.

Third world family farms that use animals as food storage (capital) and insurance (against drought and personal disasters) are different. In that case, there is a survival need and a limit to the viability of long term sustainable development. A mixed short-term/long-term strategy is more reasonable when actualy starving to death is a possible consequence of plans. Using meat for sustinance is short-term planning (efficienct use of resources and eco-degredation).

Contrary to the assumptions of many First Worlders, Third World peasants are not ignorant. Many have well developed food production techniques that have sustained them for generations upon generations. All involve exploiting some animal resources. The apparent precariousness of such systems has less to due with their inherent weaknesses than with the way we in the First World have come to assume food production to be guaranteed because of our own unsustainable practices. Masai cowherds and Karen swidden-agriculturalists require few, if any, outside inputs, particularly petroleum products, to maintain themselves. Can the same be said of a vegan in London or Los Angeles?

Fishing/hunting/gathering/animal husbandry can indeed be long-term strategies, just as grain production can be a seriously short-term one. Most swidden (slash-and-burn) agriculture is highly unstable do to the eventuality of running out of new forest to clear. (The Karen mentioned above being an exception because they maintain an ingenious system of field-rotation rather than moving on to new areas when the old become infertile). Maintaining the family herd - be it goats, sheep, or cattle - on the other hand is often a multi-generational endeavor. Furthermore, in arid, low-fertility grasslands, pastoralism has a lower ecological footprint than either a resource- and infrasture-intense attempt to bring agriculture to such an area would have or settling such pastoralists in more urban settings just so they can partake of "cruelty-free" nourishment.

And then there is the perpetuation of the acceptance of cruelty in factory farms.

Eating is one's first violent act everyday (excluding psychos who may do violent stuff before breakfast). It is our moral obligation to reduce the violence.

The horror that is factory-farming has nothing to due with meat-eating itself. Small-scale, localized meat production does not necessarily involve the same deplorable disregard for animal welfare, the same environmental impact, or the same misallocation of limited resources as do giant feedlots or slaughterhouses. I've even read some old hippie's system for a self-sustaining catfish farm involving nothing more than two 55-gallon drums, earthworms, compost, and a steady water supply: one barrel is used as your compost heap, sped along by the assistance of the earthworms; the compost then goes to your garden while the worms are fed to the catfish in the other barrel. The author claimed such a sytem could even be set up on urban rooftops.

As another example, my uncle in Pennsylvania raises heirloom turkeys for the Thanksgiving and Christmas seasons. Not only are they free-range and organically fed, they are capable of natural reproduction - i.e., copulation - unlike factory-farmed species that must be artificially inseminated. This makes my uncle's birds smaller and more expensive, limits the number available, and makes them taste somewhat different from your standard store bought turkey, but it allows the turkeys to lead as normal a life as possible (at least until November). Also, heirloom farming keeps several species of bird alive that might otherwise be extinct if their wasn't a viable commercial market for their meat: Eat abird! Save a bird!

As for the violence of eating, it is an inescapable fact of life for all heterotrophic organisms - carnivore, omnivore, or herbivore. Excepting pure frugivores and folivores, to eat, something must die. The apparent horror and injustice of a dead animal on our plate has less to do with any inherent cruelty or bloodthirstiness than the fact that, in modern societies, we have separted ourselves from the food-chain - that we are no longer at risk of being stalked, killed, and eaten by a big cat and, that most of us never come into contact with the animals that are consumed, so some of us project more empathy upon them than do those who actually rear them.

The point is that while our (that is, we rich modern urbanites') current dietary (and other) habits definitely have to be reexamined for their sustainability, and one's choice of sustenance does have a moral component, oversimplifying the predicament to simply "meat bad, meatless good" does not even begin to address the full range of practical and moral ramifacations that our status as heterotrophic organisms and masters of our environment entails. Further, by couching such legitimate concerns in simplistic, near Manichean parameters, many who do eat meat simply turn off from the conversation, thus closing the door on the potential to make real progress on an issue of true import.
 
I didn't condone anything Lightfang. Pull your head out of your backside. I'm saying that from the POV of the Nazis, genocide was a good thing. They genuinely believed they were doing the right thing, eliminating a disease from the gene pool. I don't condone genocide, and I can't think of a single situation off the top of my head where it would be a good thing.

So you do believe in absolutes!
 
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