Is the Sacrificial Altar any good?

[Um the Muse]

Hi guys. It's been awhile since I've posted here. Looking for a job, and all that jazz.

Anyway, taking a step back, I've noticed something interesting about the sacrifical altar (the UB of the Aztecas). I used to love this bad boy with an unholy fixation, but I've now decided it's not all that.

My thought behind that is based on the assumption that you don't stack anger. Now, the SA basically removes an unhappy for 15 turns (Marathon speed). An is worth the same as so the SA is basically giving you +1 temporarily. Compared to, say, the Ball Court, the SA is strictly weaker! Btw, it holds true even when you let the unhappiness stack.

Am I missing something?

 

[Gwynnja]

Marathon discourages whipping. Try normal speed.

 

[MarigoldRan]

The SA allows you to stack anger.

 

[Coffee Mug]

It's a lot easier to avoid stacking whip anger with an SA. It's also 30 hammers cheaper than a courthouse. Like most UBs, it provides a nice benefit but isn't game changing.

 

[civvver]

On the plus side it's a UB you will probably want to build anyway. I hate UB's that are jails, coliseums, aqueducts, cus I may never build those in many cities.

 

[ecuwins]

The SA allows you to stack anger.

This, and the fact that it costs less than a normal courthouse is icing. One could make a pretty strong argument that it's the best UB in the game on food abundant maps. Disclaimer: I only have experience with normal speed.

 

[OneLeggedRhino]

Marathon discourages whipping. Try normal speed.

I don't know if I'd whip more on Normal, but I mostly play Marathon and whipping is absolutely essential:

-Whips provide 3x as many hammers, but units cost 2x. This means you can whip more expensive units. (Catapults are excellent for whip overflow before forges).

-The extra time for production makes whips even more critical in an emergency.

-Well-managed whip overflow is still essential for fast wonders.

 

[squall78]

Marathon discourages whipping. Try normal speed.

How so? Wouldn't you get a good return on investment per whip because of the prolonged turns?

 

[lymond]

I'm not a Marathon player, although I've played a few games over the years. I would think Slavery absolutely rocks on Marathon. Due to the timing of things, you can mass whipe out units, stack anger, and get the most out of them. The AIs can't keep up with that. Thusly, the Sac Alter (as noted above, arguably the best UB in the game) is even more valuable on Marathon as it saves more turns of anger compared to the overall pace of the game. I'm not a big math guy in terms of Civ, but that seems pretty logical to me. I thought that was one of the main reasons why Marathon is considered easier than faster speeds.

Combine that with HR, and there are no worries at all about happiness. Who cares what other UBs provide - you don't have to build them. You build CHs, especially when they are cheap.

 

[ecuwins]

Also, don't forget that Monty is Spiritual which affords him a free switch to Slavery relatively at will. I do know that anarchy lasts longer on the slower speeds. Thus making this "synergy" even more powerful.

 

[Um the Muse]

Well, the HR thing is a good point, and I do appreciate the reduction in cost. It's still not enough to be the best UB, which is what I used to consider it.

Btw, I don't know why I brought up Mara or the no stacking assumption, as neither are relevant. Sorry. The facts should still remain that the SA provides, at most, 1/2 (well, +1 1/2 the time) to a single city. Right? Even worse, the 1/2 only applies in a limited case. You can't use it grow bigger or combat WW, for example.

I'm not saying it's the worst building. Like somebody mentioned earlier, you're going to want courthouses anyway. It's nice to get them cheap and more powerful.

 

[lymond]

Sorry, I'm not buying this logic at all.

 

[Keilah]

erm, lemme think:

with SA u can whip once every 5 turns and have a permanent 1

without SA if you whip once every 5 turns you will have
1 for t1-5
2 for t6-10
2 for t11-15
3 for t16-20
3 for t21-25
4 for t26-30

and so on and so on

There are many situations where whipping once every 5 turns is quite realistic, so I'd say the SA is real good because it turns serious anger into nearly nothing.

And in the situations where you want to whip once every 2-3 turns, it turns crippling anger into something much more manageable.

If you aren't wanting to whip so often, then SA is no big deal. A cheaper courthouse.

 

[azzaman333]

If abused well, it's gamebreakingly good. It's a top tier UB in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing.

 

[krikav]

Slavery is overpowered as it is.
Sacrificial altar makes it even more so.

I would assume that Scarificial altar is one of the reasons why "Monty stacks" is a common expression for WTH-huge stacks of units.

Synergy with spiritual is also awesome.

 

[mtr12]

Not as good as the Rauthaus

 

[azzaman333]

Not as good as the Rauthaus

Rathaus is one of the most overrated UBs in the game.

 

[Celebithil]

Keilah already gets it, but just to explain some more what the flaw in reasoning is in the OPs statement that the SA extra benefit is strictly less than 1 happy:

The OP assumes that you whip the same amount with or without SA. Of course with an SA you will whip more. In particular, if you want to whip as often as possible without stacking unhappiness you will have 1 whipping anger all the time with or without the SA, but you will whip twice as much with an SA.

The difference is thus extra whipping, not more happy.

 

[mtr12]

Rathaus is one of the most overrated UBs in the game.

Perhaps, but it's basically a Courthouse that's twice as effective, since you only pay 25% maintenance rather than 50%. If Charlemagne didn't have crappy traits and a really crappy UU, Holy Rome would be incredibly OP.

 

[vicawoo]

The issue is you can arbitrarily high unhappiness due to the way stacking whip anger works. You can't just wait 10 turns after your last whip and assume it all goes away.

But if you don't whip say 3 or 4 times, then the "happiness" isn't as useful. Or more accurately, extra happiness means you can chain whip. I seem to run caste a lot more these days, so there are some games where I don't really need the benefit.

The other thing is courthouses are generally useful in cities, whereas ballcourts and forums and hammams are buildings you wouldn't usually get in say, production cities.