Is the Sacrificial Altar any good?

[Higher Game]

Marginally improved stack defense against a unit class that the unit isn't even generally designed to counter does not a good UU make. It doesn't even make an average one. It's like giving marines formation or something.

Without oil, I actually have used marines against AI mounted spam.

 

[Mylene]

@Keilah I don't understand his reasoning either
If i have more bonuses on 1 unit, i need less and can build more Trebs.
And they are also great at picking off single AI units, when a small stack of a mace and a Jumbo move around somewhere i'd prefer the mighty Knechts over an x-bow

I guess peoples just want to hate Charly

 

[Um the Muse]

He said that you might as well just use regular pikemen when you're going against knights. He probably does plan his stuff that well. Though I appreciate the landschnet, I know that it's at least partly because I'm not very experienced at Medieval combat (or regular combat, for that matter).

 

[obsolete]

It's a top tier UB in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing.

In other words, less than 1% of the civ community...

 

[Mylene]

Welcome back @Obs, i missed your uproar causing comments

 

[MyOtherName]

@Keilah I don't understand his reasoning either
If i have more bonuses on 1 unit, i need less and can build more Trebs.

(On defense) a Landschneckt does the duty of a Pikeman or (slightly worse than) a Crossbowman. It cannot do the duty of a Pikeman and a Crossbowman.

Off the top of my head, for stack defense, you can only get away with needing less in situations similar to one of these cases:

• You don't know the right mix of anti-mounted and anti-melee.
• You are going to fight a wave of mounted, heal up, then fight a wave of melee. (or similar)

Of course, if your stack is already bigger than what you need for defense (because, e.g., you need units to actually attack and garrison the cities), then the above benefit doesn't actually materialize.

(Drill's protection from collateral damage is probably a relevant point too)


TMIT's point, I think, that Landschneckts don't really let you do conquer better -- skewing your stack composition to have more of them in favor of Crossbowmen just gives you a safety net in case you are surprised by a mass of knights when you were preparing for Macemen, or vice versa. (Of course, it does leave you vulnerable to a surprise Crossbowman stack and to siege) And that the ability to attack a stack effectively once the Crossbowmen are gone isn't of much importance.


That said, it does sound like TMIT is offering a distilled opinion more-so than an explanation of his point.

 

[ecuwins]

How in the heck did teh "landookie" discussion spill over into here? I'm going to try that save, one day, after I attempt to edit the save down to Emperor

 

[Grassland Farm]

I rarely build Coliseums, unless in emergency happiness issue.


Courthouses, however...
And I can't recall a game where I didn't use slavery. Maybe a PHI beeline to CoL...

 

[vranasm]

@Keilah I don't understand his reasoning either
If i have more bonuses on 1 unit, i need less and can build more Trebs.
And they are also great at picking off single AI units, when a small stack of a mace and a Jumbo move around somewhere i'd prefer the mighty Knechts over an x-bow

I guess peoples just want to hate Charly

I admit I hate charly, I have couple of reasons, but none of this is tied to landsknecht ;-).

if anyone wants to hear me yet again rumble about him then...

1) HRE leader? WTH... i want my premysl otakar!
2) traits
3) starting techs

 

[TheMeInTeam]

That said, it does sound like TMIT is offering a distilled opinion more-so than an explanation of his point.

That's because I've beaten my point to death in other threads and yet some people still insist that this is somehow a good UU. Maybe they're thinking about civ V or something? It's not too bad at all there.

And you've outlined the reasoning I have used elsewhere well...although I did point out that it's low str makes it a bad base offensive unit against archery AND that it gets no special benefits against gunpowder/siege/etc in this very thread. How this thing would confer even a small benefit outside of simply allowing less planning is beyond me. It certainly will never threaten decent human players.

I guess you do make them and they can occasionally come in handy, so they're better than the panzer, but they still suck pretty badly.

 

[Um the Muse]

I don't mind off-topic remarks here. Previous comments have reminded/convinced me that the SA really is good when whipping a lot.

Thinking back on my experience with these "land knights" (I've given up trying to spell them lol), I think TMIT has hit the nail on the head when he mentions their value comes from needing less planning. Since I'm bad at getting the mixtures of troops right, I remember feeling glad whenever I found a spare LK to add to the city or stack.

It also allowed me to attack more often than a x-bow when the AI sends its units to attack my stack as long as they don't have an archery unit in there.

Lastly, is it my imagination, or do I remember it being a fairly decent pillager?

 

[psychodation]

all this slavery/happiness-thing is making me nervous while playing to be honest. add the slave-revolt (playing the german version, so I don't know the right name of the event), and the anarchy. so i almost never use slavery. which (yes, I know) is a big mistake.
what i'm looking for is a simple guide to whipping or something.
if i now try whipping i almost always do NOT get it right and my empires become ... unhappy.
is there any simple guide or thread with the math involved? it seems, that especially the happy-caps are a problem for me, for i tend to change difficulty almost every game (depending on number of AIs, knowledge of how the maps work,...)
help?

 

[lymond]

^^^there's some whip guides in the War Academy and Strat Article sub-forum. Check the WA or search the sub-forum. Sorry, I don't have links.

You'll find many experience players don't play with events or huts.

Whipping is about balance and usually getting the advantage of whip overflow, although sometimes you whip for emergencies regardless. Food and granaries are important, although if you have good food in your cap early, you might grow to 4 or 5 and whip your first settler. Whip it into a worker or another settler to speed that up and slow growth until unhappiness subsides. Later Monarchy (Hereditary Rule) civic or even Rep will allow you to stack some unhappiness to get out a quick army or expand fast. Of course, hook up/trade for happies as well.

Try to leverage Whip OF for Organized Religion to get up key buildings or wonders fast, or leverage it to speed up items that have innate bonuses (Creative>Libraries, IND>Forges, ORG>CHS, etc).

As for Math, simply use the BUG mod. Hover over the whip button to see your OF. This includes currently worked tiles so it won't always be accurate as you whip of tiles, but more so if you whip unhappy citizens, which is always a good idea or if you are working straight food.

Each citizen is 30H on Normal speed (not exactly sure on slower speeds but I think it is 35 to 40h). Often you will 2 or 3 pop - usually 2. So calculate such that you add those hammers to your base hammers minus what's left to complete build. The key is determining the point of the build not to exceed to keep the 2 pop whip. This simply takes practice.

 

[psychodation]

thanks. my prob with BUG is, that most tend to not have it installed when playing MP for semi-obvious reasons (though everyone should have it istalled so there'd be no prob MPwise)

i normally don't play with huts (and with no barbarians), but with events, as they do add flavour, but are no gamechangers. the slavery-event though is the only one that might be gamechanging if you get it early on.

up to prince i had no problems not using the whip, but ion higher difficulties I find myself in no position to get what i intend to do without producing settlers and workers faster than i do now...

 

[lymond]

Can't help you much with MP other than the whip is pretty darn important.

I assume you use BUG in SP.

IMO, in SP, playing with no barbs is not truly playing the game of CIV

 

[psychodation]

i mostly play earth 18civs or similar crowded maps, so there is hardly any room for barbs or anything else than just the civs...

 

[Utenlok]

barbs are important on Earth18. without barbs to balance out the land issues being Russia, Mongolia, Egypt, etc is cheese mode for peacefully expanding.

 

[Ataxerxes]

barbs are important on Earth18. without barbs to balance out the land issues being Russia, Mongolia, Egypt, etc is cheese mode for peacefully expanding.

Egypt at least has Stone for the Great Wall. I think you listed most of the Civs that are going to profit from it. I'm not sure Mongolia can peacefully expand that well. It's true, he has a lot of room, but the land in Siberia isn't that good.

You're making me think of RFC. At least three Civs there have the Great Wall as a "must-build". RFC barbarians at their scriped times are like a BTS player's worst nightmares.

 

[psychodation]

with earth18 i don't think that the barbs are such a big issue. more in earth 8civ, but as ataxerxes pointed out: GW for egypt. no prob.
edit: bit offtopic, sry

 

[Utenlok]

I always see tons of barbs coming down on Russia and Mongolia. I have seen Mongolia lose their capital several times to barbs.