Is the single biggest issue the tech web?

[GAGA Extrem]

Well, it can work if it is done right (like in Sword of the Stars).

Totally random research (like in SMAC) is a bit "eh", because randomness on that level is (imho) not really great. But I am not against randomizing the available techs each game (and even hiding available techs can work). As long as everybody has the same chances and opportunities (= the same set of randomly available techs), that's a legit way to do things.

 

[kipwheeler]

Am I the only one who enjoys research that has random elements to it so each game is different? .

Nope. I'm also in the camp of liking semi-random research--one in which the shape of the web would vary slightly between games. There's an older thread on this topic, but the feeling I got was that I was definitely in the minority of opinion in that regard, however.

 

[Endar]

Tech Web is one of the few things in BE that are actually good and why I enjoyed playing it.

Slingshots are not a problem, they are viable strategy imho.
Like that crossbowman slingshot in Civ4 (piramids + great engi + oracle = tech to produce crossbowmans in ancient era). Takes some effort to execute but the result is fun)

 

[nimling]

I think that unit upgrades ought to be tied to more than just affinity levels, and that a wider variety of upgrades ought to be available (that aren't locked-in like the affinity upgrades to units).

Tech web itself is fine, but as OP or someone on page one mentioned there ought to be more good stuff attached to each tech rather than just getting your affinity levels.

 

[The Naug]

I think the biggest problem is that there's only 4 tiers of techs. Another tier and higher costs or perhaps some stricter prerequisites for techs could slow down beelining a lot if you wanted to.

 

[Dargov]

I would argue that instead of adding a higher tier of tech, you should be prevented from researching T3 techs until you have researched a certain number of T2 techs, and Tier 4 Techs until you have researched at least a certain number of T3 techs.

This would essentially add a system of era's into BE, and add much needed punctuation in the game play experience, as well as preventing the issues with slingshots.

 

[Galgus]

Nope. I'm also in the camp of liking semi-random research--one in which the shape of the web would vary slightly between games. There's an older thread on this topic, but the feeling I got was that I was definitely in the minority of opinion in that regard, however.

The most randomness I like is randomly getting a discount on some tech.

It would just be annoying if I couldn't plan out a route to tech reliably.

@Dargov

Free tech is the only reason Slingshots are a problem. Easiest answer would be to remove free techs.

 

[Dargov]

The reason not to remove free techs is that people like them, and for a lot of players they don't cause a problem; mainly those not playing mulitplayer or below Soyouz difficulty.

That said, I see this as a much less important issue compared to:
A) Highly prescribed game play
B) Lack of punctuation in game play
C) Limited interaction with game elements

I'm confident Rising Tide will help with a lot of these issues. Look at the Civ 5 expansions and how they improved upon the Vanilla experience.

 

[Gorbles]

I would argue that instead of adding a higher tier of tech, you should be prevented from researching T3 techs until you have researched a certain number of T2 techs, and Tier 4 Techs until you have researched at least a certain number of T3 techs.

This would essentially add a system of era's into BE, and add much needed punctuation in the game play experience, as well as preventing the issues with slingshots.

I could be wrong, but the whole point of eras in CiV is what makes slingshot an effective mechanic. Later eras unlock better bonuses, and stack onto unlocked mechanics (Spies, World Congress, etc).

As the guy above said, free techs also compound that problem.

In a strict mechanical comparison, Affinity levels do a better job of punctuating tech bonuses on your civilisation than Eras do. The problem is that Affinity XP doesn't scale amazingly well; it's very easy to grab a bunch at once and the highest levels feel like a lot of grinding.

Compound this with average game length and that's when problems kick in.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

I actually don't think that slingshotting is a big problem in BE (or: not anymore). The problem is more about beelining the few key techs (e.g. Cognition) and the imbalance of power within techs of the same tier. Most T2 techs are pretty weak and there really isn't any reason to get the T3 ones except for grabbing Affinity points.

Free techs are quite okay if they come sufficiently late (= mid game). The one from the Institute, for example, is "nice to have", but far from game breaking. At that point nothing within the tech tree gives you an overpowered advantage, even if you'd rush it.

I think even old problems like the Slavic Fed Battlesuit slingshot are now resolved, considering that the Affinity units got much weaker. The only proper slingshot targets at this point would probably be Cognition and Computing.

 

[Gorbles]

Computing's the definite one I think (Cognition solely due to Academies), mainly due to it holding up several key objects in one (Spies and Naval for starters). Separating that out into two technologies would greatly help balance that part of the tech web.

 

[Dargov]

In a strict mechanical comparison, Affinity levels do a better job of punctuating tech bonuses on your civilisation than Eras do. The problem is that Affinity XP doesn't scale amazingly well; it's very easy to grab a bunch at once and the highest levels feel like a lot of grinding.

Mechanically, sure. But not from the player perspective, because affinity level 4-6 all feels very much the same, even if there is quite a big difference in the military capabilities with respect to specific units.

Compare this to Civ 5: when you move from the Medieval to Renaissance, Oceans cease to become boundaries, contact can be made with civs on other continents, the world congress can start, the spy game begins.

When you move to from the Renaissance to Industrial era, Ideologies become available, the appearance of your units change, and 4 (Oil, Coal, Aluminium, Artefacts) critical late game resource massively alters the value of different areas of the map.

This is just 2 of the era changes, admittedly they are 2 of the biggest ones, but they illustrate my point. Civ 5 alters game play, visuals, mechanics and perspective during era changes. Beyond Earth tinkers around the edges, lets it's game play changes gradually seep into the game at different speeds for different players.

But to return to the OP point- I think the tech web causes issues, but I don't think the problems are inherent to the tech webs. The are ways round this, such as requiring a certain number of leaf techs or affinity points before you can progress into each circle of the tech web. Or having a Chapter and verse system for affinity levels, rather than linear progression.

 

[kipwheeler]

The most randomness I like is randomly getting a discount on some tech.

It would just be annoying if I couldn't plan out a route to tech reliably.

Galgus, yes, I understand your position. That was also why I was the minority in that other thread, as most strategy gamers seem to share a desire for predictability in this regard.

On the other hand, I find it annoying that players *can* plan out a route to tech reliably--since it breaks my immersion in the game in that it seems unrealistic to me to be able to predict what routes of research will be productive or unproductive in advance or know what techs will lead to what specifically. To me, that feels meta-gamey rather than exploring "mankind's uncertain future," as the designers originally claimed was the point of a radiating web.

However, tastes vary here. This must be a matter of different tastes desiring different gaming experiences, and I simply must have odd tastes in this regard.

 

[Gorbles]

A blind / randomised tech web would be interesting, a bit like the game option in SMAC (but given tech's linear progression in that game, it'd work out better here I think). You could give research goals, or only see the next (primary?) techs from your current node, etc.

Would work best as a game option, obviously. Not sure how to balance base gameplay around it.

 

[Natura]

To me, that feels meta-gamey rather than exploring "mankind's uncertain future," as the designers originally claimed was the point of a radiating web.

One of the biggest meta-gamey aspects I find is that immediately when you touch down on the planet, you get a number of Victory quests telling you to research distant technologies. Furthermore, simply from an immersion aspect, it seems odd that immediately upon landing scientists know that there's a gigantic hive mind on the planet, or that a pressing immediate concern for the colonists on a distant, alien world will be to build gigantic, impossible to build Warpgates to travel back to Earth. I'd much prefer if those showed up later.

Would work best as a game option, obviously. Not sure how to balance base gameplay around it.

You could perhaps work it like Fog of War. All your initial, Tier 1 circle techs are revealed, and researching one will reveal techs linked to it. But as you radiate out everything is randomized, so each time you reveal new techs it's a gamble.

It would probably be hugely frustrating and, with the way the tech web is designed currently, make victory quite luck based.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I actually don't think that slingshotting is a big problem in BE (or: not anymore). The problem is more about beelining the few key techs (e.g. Cognition) and the imbalance of power within techs of the same tier. Most T2 techs are pretty weak and there really isn't any reason to get the T3 ones except for grabbing Affinity points.

Free techs are quite okay if they come sufficiently late (= mid game). The one from the Institute, for example, is "nice to have", but far from game breaking. At that point nothing within the tech tree gives you an overpowered advantage, even if you'd rush it.

I think even old problems like the Slavic Fed Battlesuit slingshot are now resolved, considering that the Affinity units got much weaker. The only proper slingshot targets at this point would probably be Cognition and Computing.

I think that is the real problem, the techs are terribly imbalanced.
If almost all of them grant affinity now, then the 'other stuff'..buildings/abilities can be balanced separately.

 

[Gorbles]

Well, it can work if it is done right (like in Sword of the Stars).

Totally random research (like in SMAC) is a bit "eh", because randomness on that level is (imho) not really great. But I am not against randomizing the available techs each game (and even hiding available techs can work). As long as everybody has the same chances and opportunities (= the same set of randomly available techs), that's a legit way to do things.

I missed this post, this would actually be a good way to introduce a "randomised" game option. If all players share the same random seed, you can set it so that all players have the same randomised web. Or you just copy the same randomised web to all ingame players, whichever way works best for the game logic.

That would also incentive teamplay and exploring different options / paths (because you can feed back to team knowledge about where each path goes).

 

[Ryika]

I still think it works better if you do it the other way around. Tie the stuff that you can unlock more to the terrain ("+2 Food from Resourse X"/"+1 Food from Grassland"/Have more strategic Resources and spread them in "local clusters" + stuff to use them in the tech web, etc. etc. - balance them somewhat and there you go, you have a game where every single game you use a different strategy.

A "Blind" techweb on the other hand is just randomness that takes away your strategic choices. It's certainly cool as an additional option for people who like that idea, but it doesn't solve the issues that the techweb has for people who want a playingfield that rewards good choices.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Well there is a difference between
'pure blind'-I dump research into a pot and get random benefits occasionally
v.
'random research available and visible'- I see the options for me to research but not what other research it will lead to.

So the strategic choice is between what options you can research right now. (Same as a Random map gives you choices of where to settle, but a particular terrain setup is not necessarily in the game (and if it is you have to find it.

 

[Galgus]

I still think it works better if you do it the other way around. Tie the stuff that you can unlock more to the terrain ("+2 Food from Resourse X"/"+1 Food from Grassland"/Have more strategic Resources and spread them in "local clusters" + stuff to use them in the tech web, etc. etc. - balance them somewhat and there you go, you have a game where every single game you use a different strategy.

A "Blind" techweb on the other hand is just randomness that takes away your strategic choices. It's certainly cool as an additional option for people who like that idea, but it doesn't solve the issues that the techweb has for people who want a playingfield that rewards good choices.

I definitely agree that more tie-in to the terrain would help to make each playthrough feel different.

Resources generally feel somewhat negligible come mid-game at the moment.