Is the Steam DRM just a one-time verification check? Or is it much more?

[Shurdus]

You are claiming that something is being done that there is no evidence for. The burden of proof is not on me, it is on you. It is impossible to prove a negative.

Really?

Are you willing to accept that certain situations can be described negatively? That is, things can be A or non-A.

If I can prove that something is A, I proved that it is not non-A.

QED.

 

[tom2050]

Chalks, please calm down before you hurt yourself. Another user is simply trying to verify what Steam will do to his system without his knowledge before he installs it. A reasonable question.

You seem to know Steam much more closely than anyone else on the planet.. perhaps try just giving him the answers in a civilized way.

 

[CivilizedTiger]

I have to say I do like your attitude on this subject. Disarmingly reasonable to such a degree that I cannot fault you.

Are you going to be missing out on Civ 5 because of Steam? This would be an upsetting prospect.

I'm being unreasonable at times, unfortunately. But I am fond of reason and try to respect it usually , and it's irrational to make extraordinary claims without any kind of evidence. I dislike the principle of Steam having control, but I can't take it further than just a matter of principles.

And I've reconsidered my stance on Steam, mostly because I've realized that I've accepted some of the similar issues by playing some battlenet titles. I'll get the game even with the requirement I'm not that happy about. Besides... there is a leader I want to make for Civ5 and I want to play some games as that leader, if it's possible, so I have good enough motivation to get the game that it outweighs the dislikes.

 

[Chalks]

Really?

Are you willing to accept that certain situations can be described negatively? That is, things can be A or non-A.

If I can prove that something is A, I proved that it is not non-A.

QED.

Oh, you know what I mean Feel free to provide me with the technically correct phrasing that escapes me.

Chalks, please calm down before you hurt yourself. Another user is simply trying to verify what Steam will do to his system without his knowledge before he installs it. A reasonable question.

You seem to know Steam much more closely than anyone else on the planet.. perhaps try just giving him the answers in a civilized way.

He's not, Tommy. I already quoted the statements he made in another thread on the subject. Don't let the framing suck you into a false sense of what is going on.

This guy thinks that the corporations have a secret agreement to reach into your game of Civ 5, look at what mods you are playing and specifically delete the ones they don't like. That is the agenda here, and he is going to attempt to convince us of this fact.

I'm being unreasonable at times, unfortunately. But I am fond of reason and try to respect it usually , and it's irrational to make extraordinary claims without any kind of evidence. I dislike the principle of Steam having control, but I can't take it further than just a matter of principles.

And I've reconsidered my stance on Steam, mostly because I've realized that I've accepted some of the similar issues by playing some battlenet titles. I'll get the game even with the requirement I'm not that happy about. Besides... there is a leader I want to make for Civ5 and I want to play some games as that leader, if it's possible, so I have good enough motivation to get the game that it outweighs the dislikes.

Yeah. In an ideal world, I'd love to not have to have online activation either. I like the DD features of steam, but I don't think any player could possibly WANT to activate a game against their account and only be able to play it when it was verified.

It's like when you walk into an electronics store and there's a big beefy security guard watching you. It sucks. Or when you go into a corner shop in a dodgy area and you know the guy behind the counter probably has a gun or something. Or when there are security cameras around everything expensive.

It sucks that you basically spend your whole time being treated like you might be a criminal. But unfortunately, you might be.

I completely empathise, but the root cause is human nature I feel.

 

[Shurdus]

Chalks, please calm down before you hurt yourself. Another user is simply trying to verify what Steam will do to his system without his knowledge before he installs it. A reasonable question.

You seem to know Steam much more closely than anyone else on the planet.. perhaps try just giving him the answers in a civilized way.

Chalks pointed out time and time again what steam does. Any one with a basic understanding of the search function can look up what steam does.

Also one may google pretty much anything about steam. I grant you that questions may be answered in a civilised way, but if users are not willing to read anything, how is one supposed to instruct these people? Civfanatics is full of FAQ about steam by now. ANyone can do some reading, these boards are not about steam.

 

[mossmonster]

If you go check out the definition of a conspiracy you will certainly find it fitting for what you are saying.

It is paranoid and it is a rant. It's a completely apt description.

You're not a mod, get over it. If someone tells me I am not allowed to call you paranoid then I shall inquire as to how I should correctly address someone posting from a position of irrational paranoia, but until then, I'm going to keep on going.

I'm not the one with a long history of having the mods repeated warn me for flaming. You are. Do you understand what "civil discussion" means? I don't want your misbehavior to get this thread closed like you have in so many other threads.

You are claiming that something is being done that there is no evidence for. The burden of proof is not on me, it is on you. It is impossible to prove a negative.

Thanks for your interpretation again but I never said that either. Every one of the OP bullets is a question, followed by my best guess of an answer. Please read the OP:

- After the initial Civ5 DRM verification is completed can I remove Steam from my computer? No

- After I have started a game of Civ5 can I turn Steam off? No

- Does Steam differentiate between single-player vs multi-player or offline vs online? In other words can even I play a single-player offline game without Steam being required to start and constantly monitor my actions? No

- Additional cost game content is already being offered, a Babylonian civ and a Mesopotamia map, and DLC is promised. Can some corporate guy decide that an independent game mod or content, from any source, is too similar to the official paid content and ban it? Yes

- Can the Steam program be updated (when you connect to Steam, upload a patch, etc) to include a check for banned mods/content? Yes

- Because Steam is required to start and constantly run while playing Civ5, can it prevent me from playing with the now-banned mods/content in my game? Yes

If you have an actual answer instead of your opinion I welcome it. Please read the OP:

Please correct me, and add a link for verification, if you believe any of my answers are incorrect.

 

[tom2050]

I completely empathise, but the root cause is human nature I feel.

So you feel the root cause of the problem should be eliminated? Otherwise we have to suffer the consequences of Steam?

 

[BobDole]

Didn't you guys already get one thread locked over debating about this?

Anyway, as for my two cents, I think there's a little too much paranoia about Steam. Do you need Steam to be running? Yes, unless something changes, you will. But do you have to be online after the initial install? No. Are they going to be banning mods just so they can force you to buy DLC? Incredibly unlikely.
Is it really that big of a deal that you need to have Steam running, either in Online or Offline mode? There's already games that are Online Only even if it's a single player game (look at the mess over Assassin's Creed II). Pretty much every PC game is going to have something that is DRM or sort of related to DRM, be glad that you won't have to be online every single time you're on Civ V and remain connected or lose your progress. I think everyone would rather have Steam involved than have to be online every single time we try to play.

 

[CivilizedTiger]

@mossmonster
The burden of proof is ALWAYS on the party making a claim, not on the party skeptical to it. You can try to familiarize yourself with "Russell's teapot" if you want a demonstration of why things should be this way.

 

[mossmonster]

This guy thinks that the corporations have a secret agreement to reach into your game of Civ 5, look at what mods you are playing and specifically delete the ones they don't like. That is the agenda here, and he is going to attempt to convince us of this fact.

Thanks yet again for another of your colorful, but incorrect interpretations of my statements. I am concerned about what mods/content I will be permitted to use and would like to know who has the final authority of how I play Civ5 - me or Steam?

 

[tom2050]

Are they going to be banning mods just so they can force you to buy DLC? Incredibly unlikely.

Incredibly unlikely, but it is possible. The world has become an extremely politically correct place, and I will tell you there are mods out there in Civ 3 (and maybe 4 as well) that would not make it past the 2K/Firaxis/Valve Corporate Checkpoint.

This guy thinks that the corporations have a secret agreement to reach into your game of Civ 5, look at what mods you are playing and specifically delete the ones they don't like. That is the agenda here, and he is going to attempt to convince us of this fact.

You mean they don't?!? This is almost as bad as when I found out Santa doesn't really exist!

 

[Chalks]

mossmonster, here are two things to undermine your entire theory which you have already been told but appear to have forgotten:

In offline mode, Steam makes no contact with any servers. Steam can be set permanently to offline mode. [link]

The Steam user agreement explicitly states that no information gathered by Steam can be used to individually identify a particular user or interact with them. This makes it illegal for them to gather information in this way. [link]

You haven't a leg to stand on and this is the last time I will even attempt to argue with you on this ludicrous subject.

 

[mossmonster]

Didn't you guys already get one thread locked over debating about this?

Yes, which is why I posted the last line of the OP in the hopes of not repeating the same outcome.

Anyway, as for my two cents, I think there's a little too much paranoia about Steam. Do you need Steam to be running? Yes, unless something changes, you will. But do you have to be online after the initial install? No. Are they going to be banning mods just so they can force you to buy DLC? Incredibly unlikely.
Is it really that big of a deal that you need to have Steam running, either in Online or Offline mode? There's already games that are Online Only even if it's a single player game (look at the mess over Assassin's Creed II). Pretty much every PC game is going to have something that is DRM or sort of related to DRM, be glad that you won't have to be online every single time you're on Civ V and remain connected or lose your progress. I think everyone would rather have Steam involved than have to be online every single time we try to play.

Thank you.

 

[tom2050]

Steam can be set permanently to offline mode. [link]

Thing is, you have to set it to offline mode, otherwise it connects by itself from what the page states. Most people either won't know or won't care, so Steam will always be all over your computer like politicians over our wallets.

The Steam user agreement explicitly states that no information gathered by Steam can be used to individually identify a particular user or interact with them. This makes it illegal for them to gather information in this way. [link]

<Cough Cough>... Your personal info is not safe from Valve and it's third party blood-suckers, according to Valve.

Collection and Use of Information
By using Valve's online sites and products, users agree that Valve may collect aggregate information, individual information, and personally identifiable information, as defined below. Valve may share aggregate information and individual information with other parties. Valve shall not share personally identifiable information with other parties, except as described in the policy below.

Furthermore, external websites and companies with links to and from Valve's online sites and products may collect personal information about users. Valve's privacy policy does not extend to these external websites and companies.

 

[CivFanMUC]

it is possible. The world has become an extremely politically correct place, and I will tell you there are mods out there in Civ 3 (and maybe 4 as well) that would not make it past the 2K/Firaxis/Valve Corporate Checkpoint.

mhm, like this one http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=336721 ?

 

[PieceOfMind]

It's clear to me that many of you, especially Chalks, love an argument. Hey, I don't mind a good argument myself!

If you want Chalks to respond in a positive way, you should ask him questions rather than argue with him. That tends to work from my experience.

On topic: I find this argument fairly pointless. Probably for once I shouldn't stick my foot in.

 

[mossmonster]

@mossmonster
The burden of proof is ALWAYS on the party making a claim, not on the party skeptical to it. You can try to familiarize yourself with "Russell's teapot" if you want a demonstration of why things should be this way.

I understand this and that's why I posted questions followed by my best guess answers and asked for additional input. Nobody can say for sure what Civ5 with Steam will be like until it is released. I am not asking for proof.

 

[Chalks]

<Cough Cough>... Your personal info is not safe from Valve and it's third party blood-suckers, according to Valve.

Dude, you need to read on further than that. What is with people who see "As described below" then don't bother to read below? Why would you do that?

Steam collects two types of information:

Aggregate anonymous information and individual anonymous information.

For example, aggregate information is stuff like "25% of people who bought Civilization 3 also bought civilization 4". Entirely anonymous and summarised as groups and trends.

Individual anonymous information is things like "someone crashed while loading civilization 3 version 1.534. The crash was caused by this particular sound card driver". Information that is specific to one individual, but completely anonymous in that you cannot trace the information back to the actual person who submitted it.

Both types of information cannot be used to interact with the person the information was gathered from, which would be required for this theory to work.

The second part of their policy you picked out refers directly to websites. You need to pay more attention.

 

[tom2050]

mhm, like this one http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=336721 ?

Yes, just like that one! They may require that you change the word Terrorist Organizations, to Man-Made Disaster Organizations, or maybe Overseas Contingency Operators.

After all, we cannot offend anyone... it's just not Earthly to do so.

 

[Chalks]

It's clear to me that many of you, especially Chalks, love an argument.

This is absolute fact. Literally the only reason I read these boards is because I enjoy a good debate.