Is the Steam DRM just a one-time verification check? Or is it much more?

[mjs0]

I agree to this. It was caused by others which have taken this section as "excuse" on behalf of Steam.

I suspected as much, no problem...don't let them get to you.

I think we are very close to at least understanding each other my friend...thanks for keeping this civil.

Well, in this regard I still cannot agree with you.
Most probably just because we have different technical understanding of network technologies and I will admit that in this area am very much the "Joe Average".

But "Joe Average" - about this I am pretty sure - does understand "offline" as "no connections will be established; even not just for checking what kind of service might be available".

...but when I put Windows Live Messenger (a classic Joe Average social networking tool) in 'Offline' (hidden) mode it still goes out on the network and gets a list of your contacts that are online in case you still want to talk to them. This is clear in the interface as the available online contacts are highlighted and even Joe Average would realise this has to mean the application is talking to something out there.

And, as Ori has put it into words above, this is what is my concern with Steam as far as this special topic is concerned.
A company shall be clear in their statements - meaning that "Joe Average" has to have a chance to understand what they are talking about.
If this means that an additional paragraph has to be included in the EULA, privacy policy or whatever, then it has to be done.

I was nodding in partial agreement until you got to this point, unfortunately I think you are giving Joe Average too much credit here, in fact I would go as far as to say you may be projecting your own feelings and misgivings onto Joe Average...(I'm tempted to put this in bold)...Joe and Jane Average do not read any of the above documents...something looks interesting they buy it, they download it and install it, Joe and Jane Average think nothing of signing up at Facebook, twitter, LOLCats, etc etc they just install and run. They don't read the fine print. I can't imagine anything that would be able to communicate this to them in a reliable way

Especially, when the customers on average are of an age of 20 or younger, as Steam states.

Of course this is the same demographic that goes gaga over iPhones and iPads, home of the most restrictive anti-consumer corporate policies you can imagine. That iPhone app you bought and love can be gone at Apple's slightest whim.

And one last thing: if Steam starts with Windows, yet has been set into the miraculous "offline mode", then all this accessing of sockets is not needed.
Yes, it looks like the Steam engine has a history of having been developed for online access. Therefore, it may be very difficult to drive around these things and - maybe, maybe not - not really worth the effort.

But again, then I would expect a paragraph somewhere which reads:
"Although due to technical restrictions the Steam software will access existing internet connections when started, no data will be transferred. Such access will be only an availability check and is performed only once during the start sequence."

No matter. As I said, it is highly appreciated.

I still don't think this statement matters to more than a handful of potential customers, but you are right adding something similar to that to the fine print would be the best way to placate those who are perturbed by its absence.

 

[Greybriar]

Unfortunately, this is true. I am trying hard to find the correct expressions and terms, but for sure sometimes I am just translating a German expression word by word which then may cause confusion.


I am absolutely fine with this. I am always trying to improve my English, which for sure has suffered since during the past years I have spoken English mainly with other non-native speakers from varioius countries.
Anyway, any meaningful criticism and correction is highly appreciated. ....

I wish my German were as good as your English! I have not had a problem understanding what you post. I think you are doing an admirable job and value your input on this forum.

Please carry on!

 

[mjs0]

I don't think 2K is misinformed, they say they have direct lines of communication with Firaxis and Valve in 2K threads... and that they can discuss information at any time; and keep in contact often.

They even stated that what they say can be seen as Firaxis saying it themselves, since they are "one and the same".

This leaves out misinformed. Which brings up the possibility that Valve is deliberately misleading everyone. We all know that lawyers writing legal jargon do this intentionally to safeguard themselves while keeping all abilities to maximize their own freedoms intact, so consumers do not know the whole truth.

Tom, with respect I don't think misinformed can be dismissed this easily.

Even an expert in one part of the Steam Client is almost guaranteed not to know the inner workings of other parts of the client. This is especially true of core functionality which will be used by the higher level user-facing features as a black box. This is the nature of modern OO development. It is almost certain that anyone Elizabeth speaks to at Valve does not know the detailed inner workings of every component of the Steam client-server stack.

Another real world example...if I run a SQL Server client/server app a pool of connections shared amongst users on the client is maintained by the infrastructure.
As far as the client app is concerned connections are opened and closed at particular places in the code but the actual infrastructure opens and allocates connections from the shared pool such that the application writer literally has no insight into the lifecycle of the actual physical connections. This is very common in any software that performs communication.

Of course your interpretation may well be correct, but I would hope it is not and certainly wouldn't dismiss other equally likely explanations without more evidence.

 

[evrett37]

I don't think 2K is misinformed, they say they have direct lines of communication with Firaxis and Valve in 2K threads... and that they can discuss information at any time; and keep in contact often.

They even stated that what they say can be seen as Firaxis saying it themselves, since they are "one and the same".

I hate to keep repeating myself but it must be said again - 2k Elizebeth and 2k Greg are employed by 2k Games MARKETING department. While Firaxis was purchased by the mothership - 2kE and 2kG are not devs nor involved in any game development and we do not know how Firaxis employees treat 2k Marketing people. We do know they are geographically far away so any communication is email or over the phone. Its possible they just send off questions and the devs answer them or dont akin to the same "direct lines" gaming journalist and magazines have. Its also important to keep in mind that even if their product is a pile of crap that kills its user upon opening - its their job to convince us otherwise and get us to buy it.

Anyone remember Real Audio player when it first came out..that company had to be sued before it would admit it collected user data. That just how these big companies work..they get away with as much as they can for as long as they can. Look at BP or Massy energy for crying out loud..or EA or Sony..no one should be saving a great place in their hearts for 2k games or giving them the benefit of the doubt. If you do I've got a bundle of Master of Orion 3 and Vangaurd Saga of Heroes to sell you.

 

[tom2050]

It also important to keep in mind that even if their product is a pile of crap that kills its user upon opening - its their job to convince us otherwise and get us to buy it.

Not only is it 2k's job, but there has been some CFC work in upper level also to convince us otherwise. These CFC folk have likely been misinformed also, but that is just speculation, same with everything else. I will speak of it no further, for fear of my account being permanently done away with.

 

[evrett37]

Not only is it 2k's job, but there has been some CFC work in upper level also to convince us otherwise. These CFC folk have likely been misinformed also, but that is just speculation, same with everything else. I will speak of it no further, for fear of my account being permanently done away with.

Any CFC who is commenting doesnt have access to the game as he/she would be muzzled at the moment by the NDA. Another part of my discomfort with all this is the community leaders have all effectively been silenced by involvement in testing. Thats why the outrage appears to only be coming from people like me with 37 posts or whatever. And Ori

Point being any answer out now either cant be trusted or is speculative..assuming Civ 5 steam version is unique

 

[surv]

I like steam.

I have close to 50 games tied to my steam account and I'm very happy. I never had any problem with steam service.

Once I had to communicate with them because my account had been hacked and I was very well taken care of. Within 4 hours I was back in gaming.

The most beautiful thing about steam is that it's FREE!!! You can't beat steam for its price. It's the best service in gaming industry nowadays.

All you have to do is buy the game you want, register with steam and off you go. You'll always have people on-line with whom to play and you can keep contact with your gaming friends and organize tournaments and so much more.

The longer you miss out on steam the bigger the regret will be later on. But steam will make you so happy it won't even matter.

Join the future before it passes you by

 

[The_Coyote]

Hello surv,

welcome to the fanatics. Glad to see that you registered to post your opinion about steam.

Unfortunally i´m only a classical single player civ gamer and have only one gaming pc. Also no steam feature or functionality - i know - really offers me an additional use (most of them i simply don´t care, some of them i don´t want), therefore i must say, i can´t share your praise of steam. Steam offers no use for me and therefore i don´t want it.

Glad for you that you have use for it, have a nice time here

 

[tom2050]

I brought about a thread with the sole intent to show after 1 day of being up that:

* Civ 5 is requiring that you purchase/own an unrelated service in order to install the game.
* Civ 5 is requiring that you install a 3rd party "big brother" program in order to install and play the game.

This is along the lines that other companies have failed in and have had great outcry against, requiring unrelated services to install and play the game. The difference is minimal, yet suddenly others condemn this while they promote the Civ 5 method (they are virtually similar with minor differences in a broad sense).

My thread was immediately shut down and 'punishment' was handed out before I could even make my point. Ori is likely viewed as an outcast by bringing reasonable questions because CFC does not want this at all.

CFC wants everybody to step in line with this, and be happy with the DRM, or else face "punishment" because Civ 5 will bring ALOT of new members, and possible revenue to the site. They do not want to be seen as Dis-trustful of the controversial DRM methods being forced here. They want maximum number of users to think it is 'nothing to worry about' to maximize the use of the site.

Oddly, "punishment" is handed out more often against certain users who are using the same rhetoric as other users have used, with the only difference being the viewpoint that user has taken on the DRM.

So far, 2K has been misinformed (or misleading) in 1 aspect of what they have said about Steam (even though Valve's statement, which is semi-misleading, is correct), with only the forum members research to bring the truth to light. So far, no relevant questions have been answered, but when they are answered, ONLY EXPECT the positives to be answered, because these people are being paid to "Sell You".

The fact 2K has hired multiple people to "Sell You" a system that requires 3rd Party software and requires you to purchase/own an unrelated service to play their game speaks for itself. They are desperate to slowly ease people into thinking it is the best thing in the world. (If you wish to play online, then internet is obviously required, thus making this a necessity is not controversial; same with online updates/patches/DLC)

Yet most everyone agrees Ubisoft's methods are not good, requiring you to purchase/own an unrelated service to install and play their games. The point is why do some that think Ubisoft internet methods are bad, and yet stick up for Firaxis methods, which are identical with only minor differences.

I will likely be attacked for writing this by many. Some of this are facts, some are my opinions. You can decide.

 

[The_J]

Yes, I am the embodiment of evil and hatred. You have finally uncovered my secret.

You've already stated that you own steam, no need to repeat that.

Even an expert in one part of the Steam Client is almost guaranteed not to know the inner workings of other parts of the client. This is especially true of core functionality which will be used by the higher level user-facing features as a black box. This is the nature of modern OO development. It is almost certain that anyone Elizabeth speaks to at Valve does not know the detailed inner workings of every component of the Steam client-server stack.

Like i've already said: At this critical points (if not security, then sure marketing) the code should be reviewed, so that someones does know what's going on.

CFC wants everybody to step in line with this, and be happy with the DRM

If it was the case we would not be allowed to rage here .

So far, 2K has been misinformed (or misleading) in 1 aspect of what they have said about Steam

Only in the same way like the customers like some of the people around here are missinformed.
It's Valve's fault that you can't trust their information.

The fact 2K has hired multiple people to "Sell You"

The job description for the community manager contained some things more .

 

[evrett37]

So far, 2K has been misinformed (or misleading) in 1 aspect of what they have said about Steam

2K has also claimed "we" the community requested Steam in research they conducted yet so far has refused to show any evidence of this. Its this lack of willingness to "show your work" that suggests to me they cant be trusted to actually know whether what steam does under the hood. In all likelyhood the 2K reps here just send an email asking what happens with Steam under the hood and process out whatever they get as 2 tablets off a mountain. An answer that likely comes from management not engineers.

 

[2K Greg]

The fact 2K has hired multiple people to "Sell You" [...] speaks for itself.

I hope that what it speaks is that 2K cares about its community. The civilization community is important enough that they wanted a dedicated person (me!) just for you guys.

I know you only have my word to go on for that, but it is true. There's a reason they hired someone who was passionate about Civilization.

Also, I am not actually in the marketing department; rather I am in the web department.

 

[jrregan]

* Civ 5 is requiring that you purchase/own an unrelated service in order to install the game.

Steam is a DRM, patch, and DLC service. DRM has always been needed, and always will be, needed for first release programs. Steam allows auto detection and upgrading for program patching. DLC is a distribution method that supplants the standard optional 'Unit Packs' (ala TA), or 'Unit Groups' (ala Total War). All of those services require a core file to be housed somewhere. In the old days ftp.firaxis.com would be the place. The when ftp servers went out of style downloads.firaxis.com http approaches took place. Finally About:CheckForUpgrades approach resolved as the best manner for the majority of players. Steam is obviously the best mechanism at the best price that Firaxis / 2k Games decided would meet their goals.

* Civ 5 is requiring that you install a 3rd party "big brother" program in order to install and play the game.

This is a redudant restatement of your previous bullet point, made in an inflamatory language...

My thread was immediately shut down and 'punishment' was handed out before I could even make my point. Ori is likely viewed as an outcast by bringing reasonable questions because CFC does not want this at all.

My opinion is that the (incompo)Topic Cops haven't been nearly as active as they should be for the mess of OT and OThread postings (in the Civ 5 forum). I'm guilty of OTing also.

CFC wants everybody to step in line with this, and be happy with the DRM, or else face "punishment" because Civ 5 will bring ALOT of new members, and possible revenue to the site. They do not want to be seen as Dis-trustful of the controversial DRM methods being forced here. They want maximum number of users to think it is 'nothing to worry about' to maximize the use of the site.

Oddly, "punishment" is handed out more often against certain users who are using the same rhetoric as other users have used, with the only difference being the viewpoint that user has taken on the DRM.

Can you define this "punishment"? Who is the "punisher"? 2K? Firaxis? CFC? Everybody?

So far, 2K has been misinformed (or misleading) in 1 aspect of what they have said about Steam (even though Valve's statement, which is semi-misleading, is correct), with only the forum members research to bring the truth to light. So far, no relevant questions have been answered, but when they are answered, ONLY EXPECT the positives to be answered, because these people are being paid to "Sell You".

And what point is that? I too wish this was August, then 90% of the questions active and unanswered today would be already answered.

The fact 2K has hired multiple people to "Sell You" a system that requires 3rd Party software and requires you to purchase/own an unrelated service to play their game speaks for itself. They are desperate to slowly ease people into thinking it is the best thing in the world. (If you wish to play online, then internet is obviously required, thus making this a necessity is not controversial; same with online updates/patches/DLC)

Community Liason is a job position that are on every software vendors jobs page. There job is to SELL and assist. So what is your issue? You are mis-stating that Steam is an un-related service, aren't you? You yourself have indicated that Steam will be required, that makes in related by default, no? If you don't want Steam on your computer, then you'll have to settle for another turn-based strategy game this year. Bummer, but true.

I will likely be attacked for writing this by many. Some of this are facts, some are my opinions. You can decide.

I promise, in public, not to attack you. But I reserve the right to state my opinion and point out your mis-statements / mis-directions.

 

[frekk]

I understand that it can be pretty confusing with all these people ranting, but there's really nothing scary about steam.

You register the game against your account and you play it. You'll get a shortcut on your desktop that you'll double click on, the game will load as if steam isn't even there.

There is no reason for it to freak you out and you shouldn't avoid getting the game because of this. It isn't going to actually affect anyone.

Wrong. It is going to affect me, right off the bat ... digital distro doesn't work for me. It doesn't really work for most people in Canada. Our providers (Cogeco, Rogers, etc) have all implemented bitcaps with expensive overage charges. Just my regular Internet usage puts me nearly at the limit.

A game that communicates with the Internet regularly is also pretty much out of the question for me, since I'd have to upgrade my package - in effect, a monthly fee to play offline.

And what if I want to take it off my HDD for awhile? Oh ... download again ... there goes another $20 in overages.

So yeah, Steam is freaking me out. Digital distro is a no-go.

 

[jrregan]

Wrong. It is going to affect me, right off the bat ... digital distro doesn't work for me. It doesn't really work for most people in Canada. Our providers (Cogeco, Rogers, etc) have all implemented bitcaps with expensive overage charges. Just my regular Internet usage puts me nearly at the limit.

A game that communicates with the Internet regularly is also pretty much out of the question for me, since I'd have to upgrade my package - in effect, a monthly fee to play offline.

And what if I want to take it off my HDD for awhile? Oh ... download again ... there goes another $20 in overages.

So yeah, Steam is freaking me out. Digital distro is a no-go.

Then you'll just have to do it the old fashion way...

http://www.ebgames.com/Catalog/ProductDetails.aspx?product_id=77189

EBGames and search Civilization.

 

[tom2050]

I hope that what it speaks is that 2K cares about its community. The civilization community is important enough that they wanted a dedicated person (me!) just for you guys.

I know you only have my word to go on for that, but it is true. There's a reason they hired someone who was passionate about Civilization.

Also, I am not actually in the marketing department; rather I am in the web department.

EDIT: So your goal is not marketing/communications? You are here for web (development?). Just saying Hi?

So what you say is true, but sales is a very strong component of marketing. You will not communicate all the downsides of the product in respect to what your goal is. You will likely give all the positives in communications aspect.

Hopefully 2K (you) will listen though, and possibly relay any concerns to higher-ups. So if anyone has any concerns, now is the time to let them know about it, and hope they listen in respect to future titles. But bottom line with this is Valve, and 2K has no control over them. (if they continue with them)

Valve will do what it does; and will not change it. Therefore I take 2K and Firaxis stance exactly as Valve's stance is. Steam is fine; going the Ubisoft route is not fine.

 

[tom2050]

. DRM has always been needed, and always will be, needed for first release programs. Steam allows auto detection and upgrading for program patching.

DRM is expected nowadays. I agree, cannot do without it. No one wants auto-updates. It caused alot of problems in Civ 4 making mods unplayable until the mod could be fixed. People are not so lazy that they can't handle a patch themselves.

This is a redudant restatement of your previous bullet point, made in an inflamatory language...

Both bullet points are talking about 2 completely seperate things. The first is a requirement to make an ADDITIONAL PURCHASE OF ANOTHER COMPANIES GOODS OR SERVICES (or own that service) in order to use the Civ 5 product. (This is not like having to buy gas for a car you just bought, because you are not required to do so to drive the car off the lot).

If you do not purchase or own another companies product, and buy Civ 5, you are out of your money 100% with no chance of return (unless the store takes it back, rare these days for opened packages).

2nd bullet point is referring to the requirement of 3rd party software. 3rd party software should be optional to run the game. I play only offline, I have no need for it and don't want it ALWAYS being there. If you need a patch, then require it. Play online, then require it. To install the game, it is ridiculous to force it.

Can you define this "punishment"? Who is the "punisher"?

I'm not getting blasted and kicked off the site to answer this question. I've already been warned for nothing.

Community Liason is a job position that are on every software vendors jobs page. There job is to SELL and assist. So what is your issue? You are mis-stating that Steam is an un-related service, aren't you? You yourself have indicated that Steam will be required, that makes in related by default, no? If you don't want Steam on your computer, then you'll have to settle for another turn-based strategy game this year. Bummer, but true.

Unrelated products that require being purchased or owned is internet. Internet is not as vast stretching as some may think. Many cannot afford internet monthly payments of $50+ month; slow connections are almost worthless nowadays. It is almost 'ignorant' towards customers to force this on them to play offline.

Saying things like I've heard others say "if you can't afford internet, then you shouldn't be playing games" is also petty. Some may not want the expenditure. I probably will be without internet for a while this year. It doesn't mean that they cannot plan to purchase a software title they have been waiting for and are excited to play.

----------------------

And still... IF SOMEONE THINKS UBISOFT internet methods are bad of forced internet to play... forced internet to install is not drastically different. It's one small step below their method.

 

[Xiao Xiong]

Unrelated products that require being purchased or owned is internet.

Give it a rest. You aren't going to persuade anyone who isn't already a believer and all you're doing at this point is annoying everyone. Cloud computing is the way of the future. Expect to see practically everything you do move into the connected world over the next few years.

By the way, I have played lots of games from steam and they're great, it's an excellent service, a fantastic way to acquire and manage your games.

Back in the days before steam if your computer got lost or the hard drive died you could very well be out of pocket for all your games. Now you just buy a new computer, sign onto Steam, and voila, all your games are back. Even better with steam cloud your personal settings are restored.

There are SO MANY advantages to steam over the old fashioned way of doing things that your petty little grievances are just that: petty little grievances.

The rest of us want a modern gaming distribution platform, and that is what Steam is.

 

[Xiao Xiong]

And no, I do not want to manually patch my own games. I want steam to do it for me. I have MUCH better things to do with my time than go find out if there are any patches, download them, and figure out what I'm supposed to do to apply them. Better things like... PLAY MY GAMES.

I've got lots of steam games and what I can tell you from my own personal experience is that my games Just Work. They get patched, I hardly notice. It works, and it works well.

 

[tom2050]

Civ 4 had many problems with auto-patch... mods did not continue to function. Since you have no choice in the matter, you would be stuck not being able to play the mod until the modders found out the problem and fixed it. It does not work well in this situation.

By the way, I have played lots of games from steam and they're great, it's an excellent service, a fantastic way to acquire and manage your games.

Back in the days before steam if your computer got lost or the hard drive died you could very well be out of pocket for all your games. Now you just buy a new computer, sign onto Steam, and voila, all your games are back. Even better with steam cloud your personal settings are restored.

I agree, it is an excellent service.

If your computer got lost? In those days, and in current days, you reinstall the game from disc and download w/e patches you wish. If you buy it off digital download, then you download the game again.

These are good things; and users can go whichever route they wish. I have no problem with this, I've done it myself.

26% have internet... 74% do not have internet. Approx figures. Minority has internet.

Everything is connected nowadays... what does that have to do with playing a game OFFLINE? Nothing at all. It is foolish to stomp out 74% of people by making internet required to install. That was my whole point I laid out and you somehow missed it. That is the reason I have to say it over and over.

Now they may 'know' people who have internet, and do it that way. They are playing "Daddy" with you, and like good little kids they want everyone to go along with their schedule. You get updates when we tell you, you must have internet to put the game on your HDD, etc...

I guess I'm old school, and I'm not used to the "I'm too lazy to download a patch" kind of thing.