Is there a guide to attack windows?

peppe1

Warlord
Joined
Nov 16, 2008
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I am thinking of switching to Epic or Marathon to expand the units that get built/used throughout the game. With that I will have some gaps on experience using some units. I am mostly a domination/conquest type player, but have taken to using the liberalism tech path, so the window for war is usually early with Axes and not again till rifling.

The early game is most critical. With no siege/spy support when is it time to stop pushing an attack and focus back on your land?

Quechua: Good till anything other than archer defending, which can be very brief.

Chariot: Good till Spearmen defending in numbers.

Axemen: Good till either Axe or Charriot defending.

Swordsmen: Good till Axe and culture defense 40%? I rarely use swords unless there is a lot of jungle around forcing earlier iron working. How does this attack go, does it come when spy support is available?

Never Tried: Horse Archers.

Spearman in this age mainly used for stack defense.

After one of these early attacks my next attack usually needs siege or a strong UU to push on as the defense bonuses start to build. I also usually avoid even attempting to attack a protective civ.

With Spy and/or Siege Support:
Axe/Swords/Spear: If i must secure more land at all cost, send anything i have accompanied by siege (half the stack).

Elephants: If i am lucky enough to have Ivory i make it a priority to use these. It is easy to go on a little rampage and they rarely have much trouble even with just them in the stack. You can usually use these for a long while before Pikemen come out and they aren't terrible against spearmen. I haven't found much that stops suicide catapults and elephants.

Macemen: I try to avoid machinery to prevent scientists offering optics for bulbing, so usually get these late and their window of use is over. Is there another tech path that makes these guys useful?

On defense do long bows and crossbows stop the above?

I think i have seen it mentioned crossbows can do well on the offensive. Is there a good attack window for these?

Knights? I don't usually go down the guilds line, so again see these very late. Any window of usefulness?


Mid-Game Attacks:
I usually b-line rifling, so don't use/see Cuirassier, Grenadier, Musketman.

I also tend to skip Trebs for siege and go cats to cannons. Is there an efficient attack in here with gunpowder units and Trebs?

Riflemen and Spies usually takes me through most defenses. Once Grenadiers come out in numbers, i try to update/upgrade to cannons.

Late-Game:
If riflemen/cannons didn't create an advantage then things are probably not going to plan. Again i like to b-line infantry and push unit/tech advantage. Sometimes I will b-line artillery, but cannons have a lot of staying power.

I rarely get to use planes, tanks, ships (other than transports), anti-tank, SAM, etc.

End-Game:
Its been a long time since i played through till modern age stuff comes out. Last time i did i believe I mainly used mechanized infantry and spies. No siege, just brute force against older units in a mop up phase.



What attacks do you setup and use for the various stages of the game?
 
I don't know of a guide per se. The issue comes down to having either superior tech or superior numbers, or hopefully both. If your superior tech leads to your unique unit, so much the better. You want to maximize the length of time in which you can exploit your advantage.

The AI is very fond of researching Feudalism, Machinery, and Engineering. If the AI beats you to these techs and you do not have numerical superiority, fighting will be a lost cause as your swordsmen try to take on longbows, crossbows, and pikemen. For this reason, many players skip the medieval war techs and backfill them later by trading with techs from the Liberalism path.

That said, if you take a non-Liberalism path (say, with a bunch of Caste System merchant specialists lightbulbing techs along the 'southern' tech route) you can sometimes pick up the medieval techs before the AI. All you really need is Civil Service, Machinery, and Engineering so you can have Maces, Trebs, and a few pikes. Trebs are great city attackers and have a noticably better survival rate compared to catapults.

I like muskets, but I am probably in the minority. They are versatile and have no hard countering unit. And frankly, after a city has been pounded with trebuchets, muskets' 9 strength is more than enough to take the city. And when you have a musket UU (Janissary, Oromo, Musketeer), it gets even better.

Cuirassers are a great unit but you have to go off the beaten tech path to get 'em. They are hard to counter (they are at even strength against both pikes and elephants, the traditional anti-mounted units) until your foe gets rifling. The other nice part about Cuirassers is that it lets you stay on the 'northern' end of the tech tree for Liberalism, then you just need to pick up Music, Gunpowder, and Military Tradition. Put another way, once you have Gunpowder all you need is Military Tradition and HBR to build Cuirassers.

If you go for Gunpowder via the 'northern' route, you can thereby pass on most of the Medieval war techs, still be on the general path to liberalism, and get a tech advantage for war.
 
Huide to attack windows? Just throw a rock.
Seriously tho. It depends on your enemy and other factors. If you attack with chariots (or war chariots or immortals) and manage to pillage their copper (and your enemy isn't Pacal II) then those chariots can remain useful for a long time.
 
Swordsmen/Praets: They tend to be unstoppable even with cultural defense 40% if not on a hill. Longbows stop them cold, but their usefulness resumes when catapults become available. Even better when paired with pikes and trebs. I'd say they are obsoleted by opponents having Macemen or guns, but even then, if we'd rather run feudalism instead of bureaucracy, it may be a good idea to avoid building maces ourselves because swords are relatively cheap, while relying on Crossbows or phants for melee defence.

Horse Archers: Hard to stop outside cities, they are pillaging machines. Usually they are built to harrass a neighbor or to tide over while waiting for Knights to become available. Speaking of which...

Knights: On the northern tech path knights are generally useless as you're likely to get macemen first. Southern tech path, Knights ASAP are hard to stop, when promoted with barracks/stable/vasslage they don't have much difficulty against spearmen let alone axes and swords. Your stack may be composed of knights, longbows and cats, at this stage. Their usefulness diminishes when pikes are developed by the enemy. (Better if you're Spain and you're playing Vanilla or Warlords. Not even Pikes are any match. Also Cataphracts, the mounted reincarnation of the Praetorian. BEWARE!)

Grenadiers: In one of my recent games, my next-door neighbor is about 4-5 tiles across the ocean and he had a lot of ships, so I didn't feel secure invading without frigates. Grenadiers were only 1 tech away so I went with them. They actually come out much faster than riflemen if beelined after gunpowder, and even better if frigates or ships of the line are needed to dominate the sea immediately.
 
Play small pangea maps and try for early conquests, you seem to understand a lot about midevil units over ancient. For me it's the other way around, lol.

Archers are basically dominant until you reach catapult, but archers don't stop pillaging.
 
1. Make random changes, in hexadecimal, to your registry.
2. Visit websites with Internet Explorer.
3. Run DOS games.
 
Mid-Game Attacks:
I usually b-line rifling, so don't use/see Cuirassier, Grenadier, Musketman.

I also tend to skip Trebs for siege and go cats to cannons. Is there an efficient attack in here with gunpowder units and Trebs?

Riflemen and Spies usually takes me through most defenses. Once Grenadiers come out in numbers, i try to update/upgrade to cannons.
I've found a much more effective war window by making the beeline to cannons instead of rifles. As you pointed out, cannons have a long useful life, but its the part when I get them while the AI still has longbows and melee units protecting it's cities that wins games for me. You can pretty much match them up any old mish-mash of troops and take city after city, (which is kind of the opposite of what you were exploring with the question of trebs+gunpowder units.) This move is also why I tend to build more muskets more than other people, and especially why I tend to really like playing as Napoleon with his fast promotions and fast musketeers running up from the rear to fortify and support the cannons.


Also, kind of what slobberinbear said, I will sometimes go on the offensive with trebs and muskets on my way to steel. I'd almost certainly be massing trebs for the mass-upgrade / devastating attack anyway, so if the target is weak enough, I'll go ahead and launch the attack with trebs/muskets and almost certainly some pikes and CR macemen. A big old stack of trebs will suffer some casualties and takes a while to blow away culture in some situations, but they will certainly do more than enough damage to take out most pre-gunpowder defenses. (Certain protective civs on hills would probably make me wait for steel.)
 
Thanks for the feedback and the nerdy jokes :P

This thread and the Least Important Unit thread raise some interesting uses for units and unit mixes I hadn't considered.

I think i may delay rifles and try to make some runs with cannons and the early gunpowder units instead of rushing to rifles/infantry.
 
This issue is too much dependent of the particularities of any specific game ( distance, starting BFC, dificulty,..... ) to give good awnsers. And it is perfectly feasible to win wars by massing outdated units :p
 
I am thinking of switching to Epic or Marathon to expand the units that get built/used throughout the game. With that I will have some gaps on experience using some units. I am mostly a domination/conquest type player, but have taken to using the liberalism tech path, so the window for war is usually early with Axes and not again till rifling.

The early game is most critical. With no siege/spy support when is it time to stop pushing an attack and focus back on your land?

Quechua: Good till anything other than archer defending, which can be very brief.

Chariot: Good till Spearmen defending in numbers.

Axemen: Good till either Axe or Charriot defending.

Swordsmen: Good till Axe and culture defense 40%? I rarely use swords unless there is a lot of jungle around forcing earlier iron working. How does this attack go, does it come when spy support is available?

Never Tried: Horse Archers.

Spearman in this age mainly used for stack defense.

After one of these early attacks my next attack usually needs siege or a strong UU to push on as the defense bonuses start to build. I also usually avoid even attempting to attack a protective civ.

With Spy and/or Siege Support:
Axe/Swords/Spear: If i must secure more land at all cost, send anything i have accompanied by siege (half the stack).

Elephants: If i am lucky enough to have Ivory i make it a priority to use these. It is easy to go on a little rampage and they rarely have much trouble even with just them in the stack. You can usually use these for a long while before Pikemen come out and they aren't terrible against spearmen. I haven't found much that stops suicide catapults and elephants.

Macemen: I try to avoid machinery to prevent scientists offering optics for bulbing, so usually get these late and their window of use is over. Is there another tech path that makes these guys useful?

On defense do long bows and crossbows stop the above?

I think i have seen it mentioned crossbows can do well on the offensive. Is there a good attack window for these?

Knights? I don't usually go down the guilds line, so again see these very late. Any window of usefulness?


Mid-Game Attacks:
I usually b-line rifling, so don't use/see Cuirassier, Grenadier, Musketman.

I also tend to skip Trebs for siege and go cats to cannons. Is there an efficient attack in here with gunpowder units and Trebs?

Riflemen and Spies usually takes me through most defenses. Once Grenadiers come out in numbers, i try to update/upgrade to cannons.

Late-Game:
If riflemen/cannons didn't create an advantage then things are probably not going to plan. Again i like to b-line infantry and push unit/tech advantage. Sometimes I will b-line artillery, but cannons have a lot of staying power.

I rarely get to use planes, tanks, ships (other than transports), anti-tank, SAM, etc.

End-Game:
Its been a long time since i played through till modern age stuff comes out. Last time i did i believe I mainly used mechanized infantry and spies. No siege, just brute force against older units in a mop up phase.



What attacks do you setup and use for the various stages of the game?

Ax/chariot rushes also take a beating when walls come online. For chariots, it is not so much spears en mass on defense, it is the AI quick whipping in 3 or 4 and completely nerfing your stack at a hill city.

HAs are good until the AI starts getting high cultural borders/walls or LBs.


Mace rushing isn't particularly useful, it is exceedingly difficult to get both machinery and CS before the AI gets LBs. Mainly they are just cleanup for trebs.

Xbows and LBs have an attack age prior to the AI getting LBs. Normally this is a NA/china gambit that requires some smooth Oracle play. DIV LBs/Xbows with SB are very good against archers + anything else (exception of Drill immune HA/phants). This is very hard to pull off on the higher difficulties and as noted requires you to dick around with the Oracle to get any substantial window.

Knight ownage requires a lib slingshot to MC and then GE bulbing to power out to guilds. With a good setup, you can slip out to guilds before all the targets get LBs. Spies + knights is pretty strong until pike show up. This, obviously is best for the Byzantines.

Curis are good until the AI has rifles or grenadiers. Pillage the iron and then use spies for a quick war, it is quite possible to take half a weak AI's land in the first 4 turns with mass upgraded Curis.

Oromos + trebs is pretty efficient, Jans + trebs is even better until either the AI spams huge numbers of muskets or gets rifling/mil sci/steel.

I would note that cannon + muskets tends to be stronger per :hammers: than rifles + trebs. Likewise rifles + arty tends to be stronger than infantry + cannons (both of which are dwarfed by air power, which is in turn dwarfed by nukes).

In any event, enough promos can win you down unit count and a tech. The real determinant is not if you can win the war, but at what cost, pyhrric victories are the far larger dangers than outright failure. This starts to ask about distance, which AI you face, etc.
 
Is there a guide to attack Windows?


Yes.

Lol.

Seriously though. You don't use macemen much? I love macemen. With a stack of siege they can kick some serious butt and if you make steel a priority they can keep taking down even gunpowder defenders if they have enough cannon support. On top of that I find it pretty easy to get a nice stack of CR 3 macemen that eventually gain promotions to CR Rifles or Infantry. Yummy.
 
Lol.

Seriously though. You don't use macemen much? I love macemen. With a stack of siege they can kick some serious butt and if you make steel a priority they can keep taking down even gunpowder defenders if they have enough cannon support. On top of that I find it pretty easy to get a nice stack of CR 3 macemen that eventually gain promotions to CR Rifles or Infantry. Yummy.

"with a stack of siege" anything wins. That's like saying spears own because you know...stack of siege and nothing that's been taken down by siege will hold up until well after gunpowder.

CR III on rifles is a bit overrated IMO. It costs a lot to set up and the marginal ability of a CR III vs combat II rifle vs previous era units...especially if led by cannons...isn't so impressive. If you're using cannons all you need is stack D and city garrison troops.
 
^Agreed, If you have cannons you only have to protect your stack. CR promotions on any units but cannons are imo just wasted in this case.
 
Agree with TMIT.

It's seige that's important.

On higher difficulties you won't see many early game wars (other than a stupid warrior-rush/choke on a close neighbor.) Your description of a dead time b/t axes and rifles is pretty accurate in the big picture.

If we drew a bell curve of when the most player-initiated wars occur the top part of the bell would be on Steel/Rifling.

The key "windows" are when you have Trebs or Cannons. A few up-to-date stack defense units (or even a lot of obsolete ones) these can walk the seige from town to town.

The AI tends to group its units in cities anyway - one large SOD engagement usually means the war.

Focus on hitting the currently modern seige weapon and having high unit production.
 
rushes (axe, chariot) become situational, not verbotten on higher difficulties. Immortals vs a metalless, non pro AI AI is a good rush even on deity.

Likewise hitting curis, catas, HA, or rifles without major siege support is quite viable if you use spies. Siege goes down hard, though, if the AI has hoardes of siege to throw back.
 
War Chariots with chariot Event- window one

Metal in Capitol, Axe or Spear Rush- window two

Archer Rush- window three

Horse Archers- window four

Construction- 8 million catapults or 8 million elephants- window five

India close by- window six

Pascal close by- window seven

Manahatten nukes and paratroopers or troops in transport- window eight

this has been a service of the Attacko Broadcasting Station
 
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