Is there really racism in America?

[Bozo Erectus]

Originally posted by Dumb pothead
Lets say theres a white person who's never harmed a black person at all nor has any desire to ever, has never even been rude to one, who believes that they are entitled to all the rights white people enjoy and wishes them nothing but luck. However, this white person also has no desire to live among them or associate with them when it can be avoided. Can this person be classified as racist?

Sheesh, hey thanks alot for the great replies Should have figured, why waste time on racism when you can talk about oh so naughty butt sex instead

 

[Zarn]

Originally posted by naervod


Just a correction, Fascists are generally racist, but not all Fascists are racist. For example, I am pretty sure Simon Darkshade is a Fascist, but I am also pretty sure he is not racist.

That still doesn't mean it would be wise for me to be around them.

Of course, Darkshade is still the exception.

 

[phoenix_night]

Originally posted by sims2789

but you said this:

<quote>

if you dislike someone for being gay, then that's discrimination!!

No, that would be to treat them differently. I did not say that was okay.

Originally posted by Benderino
Oh, well, if we have to make it this BIG thing...



I only mean to say not that Europe is more racist than anywhere else, just that Europe isn't excused of racism. I hope I didn't offend you or anything, I just see it as a very arrogant thing when someone says "Europe is the only place where racism doesn't exist" because that's simply not true.

No, it doesn't have to be a big thing...

I'm not going to try and say Europe doesn't have racism, very few (if any) places can make that claim. But I don't think Europe is worse than anywhere else. There are obviously some racist Europeans, and you will find places in, for example Germany that could be described as racist. But they are isolated cases.

I don't think Europe has that much of a problem, it is often overstated. Especailly with the like of immigration. Just because a country doesn't allow many immigrants does not make it racist. Just because people are opposed to immigration does not make them racist. There have been many tensions concerning the likes of immigrants in the UK for example; but not so much racism.

And you talk about split communities as if the USA doesn't have them. But the USA is clearly split in terms of colour. There are plenty of exclusively white or black communities in the USA. Integration in the USA is far less apparent than it is in Europe. And I would say so is casual racism, far more prevalent in my opinion.

Originally posted by DvR
How do you know it 'does change' ???
One does not hang a sign around his neck saying: I'M GAY! after which you can judge wether he acts normal or not..
For all I care even your closest friend could be gay without you knowing about it..

I said it will change people and to varying degrees, and it will. It will alter people's lifestyle and personalities; whether it is clear to all or not, whether it is simply the sexual orientation or more.

But regardless of the impact it has on a person, great or small, some people will find the homosexual attribute enough to make them dislike, or to not like a person.

It's not a case of it being clear for all to see or hidden from sight. Regardless, some people will not like it and so not like the person in question.

Don't make the mistake of myself claiming all homosexuals fit the stereotype. They don't need to, they already have homosexuality in common. This does affect their lifestyle and possibly personality whether you like it or not. It will by definition. This has nothing to do with stereotypes. But whether it is clear by sight or not it is still part of a person and will remain a possible reason for dislike. Just as any other personality attribute, visible or not, will affect people's opinions.

 

[Yago]

Many in Switzerland, Sweden, Germany, etc. are very xenophobic and anti-Semitic. If you aren't blonde, blue-eyed, then you don't belong there. I've heard of special zones or "Aryan only" areas in parts of East Germany. France gave 10% of it's votes to a known racist/near-neo nazi during the last election. Nationalism runs strong in most European countries, and there are still animosities against Jews, Muslims (though not so much), blacks, and Asians.

What the **** does Switzerland in that list ? First naming ?

.... Ah yes, the report that all Swiss are Nazis and Anti-Semitic.

Problem: Anti-Semitism is running deep in European culture. Representants of European Culture are the protestant and catholic church. There are a lot of protestants and catholics in America, aren't they ? So, anit-semitism is running deep in the US too. I've heard that jews weren't allowed into Harvard until the 60ies. And there is a word: "Shylock".

If you are not blue-eyed and blone you do not belong in Switzerland ? Dam it, I do not belong in Switzerland, because I am not blue eyed-and blonde. Actually, when was your last visit in Switzerland ? Against common-believe, no Swiss are not predominantly Blue-Eyed and Blonde. No sir, that's the dutch.

But I can reassure you, I have similar prejudices against Americans. For me, a country which had race-segregation until the 60ies and some states, which had until 2000 constitution-articles which forbid interracial-marriage has racism deeply embedded in it's culture and in my view, a lot Americans live up to that prejudice. Yeah, not all, but many though.

Xenophobia in Europe ? Yeah there is a lot. But so is in the US. Hasn't California a problem with a wide spread grudge versus Hispanics ? And again, why Switzerland first in the list of Xenophobia, when there is Italy, which has a right-wing ultra-xenophobe govermend or notorious Denmark and Austria ? The UK isn't a saint neither. And for your information, Swiss xenophobia is mainly aimed at Yugoslavians. Why ? We took a lot of them as refugees because of the wars they had, this proves to be a reason for rising (irrational) xenophobia.

Any idea what the percentage of foreigners today in Switzerland is ? Any idea how big the population of Switzerland is ?

And because I think why Switzerland made it first on your list:

Since the time of the Congress of Vienna (1814 - 1815), Switzerland has been recognized as a permanently neutral country, it also had a long tradition of offering refuge. From the moment the Nazis came to power in Germany in January 1933, Switzerland was confronted with thousands of Jewish refugees. The government decided to differentiate among several categories of refugees: (1) political refugees, who were granted asylum; (2) immigrants, who were granted temporary residence for a limited period; and (3) refugees, whom the government tried to force to leave the country at the earliest possible moment. During the war, non - Jewish refugees too flocked to Switzerland from all the occupied countries. A total of 300,000 foreigners passed through Switzerland during the Nazi period, and 30,000 of them were Jews.

http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/text/x31/xr3191.html

The United States accepted only 21,000 Jewish refugees during the war, without significantly raising or even filling quotas.
America's response to the early stages of the slaughter of European Jews was largely one of indifference," said Eizenstat, who heads the U.S. government team reassessing wartime actions.

http://edition.cnn.com/US/9806/02/us.nazi.gold/

 

[Benderino]

Originally posted by phoenix_night

I'm not going to try and say Europe doesn't have racism, very few (if any) places can make that claim. But I don't think Europe is worse than anywhere else. There are obviously some racist Europeans, and you will find places in, for example Germany that could be described as racist. But they are isolated cases.

I don't think Europe has that much of a problem, it is often overstated. Especailly with the like of immigration. Just because a country doesn't allow many immigrants does not make it racist. Just because people are opposed to immigration does not make them racist. There have been many tensions concerning the likes of immigrants in the UK for example; but not so much racism.

And you talk about split communities as if the USA doesn't have them. But the USA is clearly split in terms of colour. There are plenty of exclusively white or black communities in the USA. Integration in the USA is far less apparent than it is in Europe. And I would say so is casual racism, far more prevalent in my opinion.

Like I said, I didn't think it was worse in Europe, just that it exists just like everywhere else. 'Casual racism' may exist more, if you are referring to the type that is more subtle and less direct. however, I think Europe faces more up-front and direct racism, but I could be wrong. There are white and black communities but there are plenty of interracial communities as well (like the one I live in). It isn't "clearly split in terms of colour" as you say. Even the fact that the Chinese neighborhood fits nicely next to the black neighborhood which gets along with the Mexican neighborhood, which closely borders the white neighborhood...

 

[phoenix_night]

Originally posted by Benderino
Like I said, I didn't think it was worse in Europe, just that it exists just like everywhere else. 'Casual racism' may exist more, if you are referring to the type that is more subtle and less direct. however, I think Europe faces more up-front and direct racism, but I could be wrong. There are white and black communities but there are plenty of interracial communities as well (like the one I live in). It isn't "clearly split in terms of colour" as you say. Even the fact that the Chinese neighborhood fits nicely next to the black neighborhood which gets along with the Mexican neighborhood, which closely borders the white neighborhood...

I don't think there are that many cases of 'direct racism' to deal with. But remember that Europe is nothing like a state and has many different cultures. Each area may be entirely different to another. It's not as easy to talk about racism in general in Europe as it is to talk about racism within the USA. But I would still believe that as a whole, the USA is worse off.

As for the communities you talk of:

"Even the fact that the Chinese neighborhood fits nicely next to the black neighborhood which gets along with the Mexican neighborhood, which closely borders the white neighborhood... "

See, all split in terms of race. There are far more instances of this in the USA than in Europe and the USA is far less integrated than Europe as a whole.

 

[Benderino]

Originally posted by Yago


What the **** does Switzerland in that list ? First naming ?

.... Ah yes, the report that all Swiss are Nazis and Anti-Semitic.

Alright, calm down there. Before you jump to conclusions about anything I am part Swiss. My great grandmother was Swiss, and she was the most racist person I know. Unless I am mistaken, the Swiss don't have the most 'open' society in the world...But perhaps it was unfair of me to make assumptions.


Problem: Anti-Semitism is running deep in European culture. Representants of European Culture are the protestant and catholic church. There are a lot of protestants and catholics in America, aren't they ? So, anit-semitism is running deep in the US too. I've heard that jews weren't allowed into Harvard until the 60ies. And there is a word: "Shylock".

Yes, I have heard this too. You've jumped to another conclusion, I'm also Jewish . In the Ivy League institutions, there was Anti-Semitism in the 1960s. I have relatives who were denied joining fraternities and such at Cornell U. My mother's parents were discriminated upon in the 1960s. However, times have changed. Now, nearly all the fraternities at Cornell are Jewish. The Jews, representing only a fraction of the country (0.02%) have managed to seem like 1/4 of the country is Jewish. Jewish comedians, actors, directors, and producers (Too many to name) do as they please, and are often considered the best of the best. Jewish journalists are well revered (Thomas Friedman) as well as Jewish statemen (Joseph Lieberman). The last case of Anti-Semitism that I hear of was performed at a university in California by a bunch of radical Muslims and students who cornered a pro-Israel rally and shouted anti-Israel things at them. I don't know how long ago this was, but within the last decade, I think.

If you are not blue-eyed and blone you do not belong in Switzerland ? Dam it, I do not belong in Switzerland, because I am not blue eyed-and blonde. Actually, when was your last visit in Switzerland ? Against common-believe, no Swiss are not predominantly Blue-Eyed and Blonde. No sir, that's the dutch.

I've never been, but I'd like to some day. I have a friend who loves it up there. I have heard it's pretty homogeneous though. I guess I was wrong about people in Switzerland have blonde hair and blue eyes. I wonder where I got that idea from?

But I can reassure you, I have similar prejudices against Americans. For me, a country which had race-segregation until the 60ies and some states, which had until 2000 constitution-articles which forbid interracial-marriage has racism deeply embedded in it's culture and in my view, a lot Americans live up to that prejudice. Yeah, not all, but many though.

I don't have any prejudices against Switzerland, why do you have "similar prejudices against Americans"? As I said, I am Swiss. "Deaply embedded"? When was the last time you were here, 1959? Yes, I agree that many places in the South had that problem, but I assure you that that is frowned upon where I live. You cannot hold the entire nation accountable for that. You cannot blame my generation for what earlier generations have done, just as I can't blame modern Germans for what their ancestors (The Nazis) did.

I hear Switzerland didn't allow women the right to vote or hold office until 1971. Let me put it this way: "For me, a country which [sexism of such a high degree] until the [1970s]...has [sexism] deaply embedded in it's culture, and in my view, a lot of [Swiss people] live up to that prejudice".

Plus, Europe's anti-Semitism goes back many more centuries than America's racism.

"Not all, but many"? Do you have a statistic somewhere? That's quite the arbitrary statement to go throwing around. I think anti-Semitism is just as deeply embedded in European lifestyle, but I'll get into that later...

Xenophobia in Europe ? Yeah there is a lot. But so is in the US. Hasn't California a problem with a wide spread grudge versus Hispanics ? And again, why Switzerland first in the list of Xenophobia, when there is Italy, which has a right-wing ultra-xenophobe govermend or notorious Denmark and Austria ? The UK isn't a saint neither. And for your information, Swiss xenophobia is mainly aimed at Yugoslavians. Why ? We took a lot of them as refugees because of the wars they had, this proves to be a reason for rising (irrational) xenophobia.

I don't think California has that grudge, considering such a large fraction of its population is Mexican so I don't know what you are talking about or referring to. I'm sorry it bums you out so much that Switzerland was 'first on the list'. That doesn't mean anthing, I was just stating its name. Should I edit it to make it last on this list? Will that help you dry your tears? IT's no big deal. I said "etc." meaning other countries, I didn't mean to single yours out, I'm sorry. I also didn't mean to get a rabid Swiss nationalist hounding me for 'putting Switzerland first on a list". Denmark and Austria are probably worse. OH GOD! Now the Danes and Austrians here will come after me!!! AHHHHH!!

Any idea what the percentage of foreigners today in Switzerland is ? Any idea how big the population of Switzerland is ?

How about this:

In 2000, the Swiss voted against a plan which would've cut the number of foreigners in the country to 18%. Whoo Hoo! Unfortunately, the fact that a bill like that could get so far as the planning stage in a Western nation is appalling. You would never hear of anything like that in the States. What would you have done, kicked foreigners out until you got to 18%? At the time, foreigners made up 19.3%.

Since 1970, there have been four similar plans, all of them have fortunately failed. This due mainly to a low unemployment rate, not necessarily to the goodwill of the Swiss people.


And because I think why Switzerland made it first on your list:

I wasn't even thinking of these sites.

 

[Benderino]

Originally posted by phoenix_night


I don't think there are that many cases of 'direct racism' to deal with. But remember that Europe is nothing like a state and has many different cultures. Each area may be entirely different to another. It's not as easy to talk about racism in general in Europe as it is to talk about racism within the USA. But I would still believe that as a whole, the USA is worse off.

As for the communities you talk of:

"Even the fact that the Chinese neighborhood fits nicely next to the black neighborhood which gets along with the Mexican neighborhood, which closely borders the white neighborhood... "

See, all split in terms of race. There are far more instances of this in the USA than in Europe and the USA is far less integrated than Europe as a whole.

I knew you were going to say something like that. It's kinda hard to compare though. How many black people live in your country of Wales? How about chinese people? Or Mexicans? Europe is a million times more homogeneous than America, so it's very easy for you to say that while living there.

There are communities like that (Chicago is famous for having this 'neighborhoods', ask any Chicagoan) but like I said most aren't. Most are integrated. And you have to understand, sometimes people just go where they want to go, there isn't state sponsored segregation. Think of it like this: Does Austria want to become part of Germany? Does Switzerland? Does Germany even want those two nations? Does Belgium wish to be part of France? Does the Czech Republic wish to be part of Slovakia? Why not? Because of separate cultures, right? Because of separate nationalities, correct? Same thing that happens in many urban places here. If Europeans can separate themselves by people, why can't immigrants to America do that here too?

And there are plenty of cases of 'direct racism', such as synogogue burnings, Hassids getting beaten, Muslims getting attacked (Though not as often). Think of the Balkans! Think of Nazi sympathizers today. Think of 'Ayran only' areas. I think that you are thinking that just because 40 years ago America had many racists it is still so today, but that's just unfair. I could say that just because 60 years ago Europe had many racists so it is still so today, but that wouldn't be fair either.

 

[Yago]

Alright, calm down there. Before you jump to conclusions about anything I am part Swiss. My great grandmother was Swiss, and she was the most racist person I know. Unless I am mistaken, the Swiss don't have the most 'open' society in the world...But perhaps it was unfair of me to make assumptions.

Hm, Grandma, that explains that. Sorry, I have overreacted. But naming Switzerland first is uncommon (naming it even is uncommon -> small country) , except it's from someone coming up with "Hitler's Bankers". So I am very thin skinned on this issue.

I hear Switzerland didn't allow women the right to vote or hold office until 1971. Let me put it this way: "For me, a country which [sexism of such a high degree] until the [1970s]...has [sexism] deaply embedded in it's culture, and in my view, a lot of [Swiss people] live up to that prejudice".

Actually, the last canton yielded on this point 1991. But the goverment of my canton is 4/7th women. They are fast.

 

[Benderino]

Originally posted by Yago


Hm, Grandma, that explains that. Sorry, I have overreacted. But naming Switzerland first is uncommon (naming it even is uncommon -> small country) , except it's from someone coming up with "Hitler's Bankers". So I am very thin skinned on this issue.

Are you calling me a grandma?
Like I said, I apologize for the confusion, I never said they were "Hitler's Bankers"

Actually, the last canton yielded on this point 1991. But the goverment of my canton is 4/7th women. They are fast.

1991?!! Owch, that's not helping your case

 

[Yago]

1991?!! Owch, that's not helping your case

Hm, it makes me look more honest ? Hm, but I must confess, I wished sometimes that women knew their place and that's coming from a classroom full of women and 2 boys. Dam, life could be great. And I wouldn't have to make the dishes. But, yes, if you'd come now to Switzerland, there are (sadly ?) not much traces left.

Plus, Europe's anti-Semitism goes back many more centuries than America's racism.

Hm, that's propably because American-natives didn't leave much traces of racism ?

In 2000, the Swiss voted against a plan which would've cut the number of foreigners in the country to 18%. Whoo Hoo! Unfortunately, the fact that a bill like that could get so far as the planning stage in a Western nation is appalling. You would never hear of anything like that in the States. What would you have done, kicked foreigners out until you got to 18%? At the time, foreigners made up 19.3%.

Switzerland as direct-democracy is responsible for 70% of all votes world-wide. So 4 isn't that big a number. But I didn't say that xenophobia isn't a problem here.

Does Austria want to become part of Germany? Does Switzerland? Does Germany even want those two nations? Does Belgium wish to be part of France? Does the Czech Republic wish to be part of Slovakia? Why not? Because of separate cultures, right? Because of separate nationalities, correct? Same thing that happens in many urban places he

Does America wish to become part of Brazil ?

I guess I was wrong about people in Switzerland have blonde hair and blue eyes. I wonder where I got that idea from?

I wonder too. Actually I am working with a blonde-blue-eyed girl. And she's Croatian.

don't think California has that grudge, considering such a large fraction of its population is Mexican so I don't know what you are talking about or referring to

No doubt, xenophobia played a role. Anti-Hispanic sentiment is rampant in California to an extreme unknown in any other state, and voting against bilingual education was a way to express that sentiment.

http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/linguistics/people/grads/macswan/KF1.htm

 

[Yago]

But still, I wouldn't say that any European country would be more racist than the US. Except maybe for the East-European countries. And that maybe means, I am prejudiced versus the US and versus the East-Europeans. Hm. Maybe I am highly xenophic myself ?

 

[Benderino]

Originally posted by Yago


http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/linguistics/people/grads/macswan/KF1.htm

You should bring this up with Sims, not me. I don't live in California, but I'd be interested to hear his opinions.

However, one man's opinions doesn't reflect a state's nor a country's.

I'm not saying Europe is more racist. I'm not saying Europe is less racist. I never said either of these things. I was merely commenting on the fact taht someone said that Europe was exempt from racism, so I was proving him wrong. No where is exempt from racism.

 

[phoenix_night]

Originally posted by Benderino


I knew you were going to say something like that. It's kinda hard to compare though. How many black people live in your country of Wales? How about chinese people? Or Mexicans? Europe is a million times more homogeneous than America, so it's very easy for you to say that while living there.

There are many people from other nations living in Wales.

What really annoys me is all these people moving here from other places in the UK, we get loads of them.

Originally posted by Benderino
There are communities like that (Chicago is famous for having this 'neighborhoods', ask any Chicagoan) but like I said most aren't. Most are integrated. And you have to understand, sometimes people just go where they want to go, there isn't state sponsored segregation. Think of it like this: Does Austria want to become part of Germany? Does Switzerland? Does Germany even want those two nations? Does Belgium wish to be part of France? Does the Czech Republic wish to be part of Slovakia? Why not? Because of separate cultures, right? Because of separate nationalities, correct? Same thing that happens in many urban places here. If Europeans can separate themselves by people, why can't immigrants to America do that here too?

You're talking about nations? Yes, people have a right to their own nations. I don't see what this has to do with white and black communities in the USA though.

Or rather, I do, but don't think it proves much. The people are all Americans. Or the main body of people, there is racism within this group. Immigrants are also affected by this main body of people.

If you see what I mean...

Originally posted by Benderino
And there are plenty of cases of 'direct racism', such as synogogue burnings, Hassids getting beaten, Muslims getting attacked (Though not as often). Think of the Balkans! Think of Nazi sympathizers today. Think of 'Ayran only' areas. I think that you are thinking that just because 40 years ago America had many racists it is still so today, but that's just unfair. I could say that just because 60 years ago Europe had many racists so it is still so today, but that wouldn't be fair either.

There aren't many of those incidents, and they do tend to happen in similar areas. Nazi sympathisers are hardly common, and there aren't any aryan only areas.

 

[EdwardTking]

Originally posted by phoenix_night


What really annoys me is all these people moving here from other places in the UK, we get loads of them.

What is this? Rascism or saxophobia?

 

[phoenix_night]

Originally posted by EdwardTking
What is this? Rascism or saxophobia?

1. People retiring here.

2. I hate being part of the UK. Filling the country up with British hardly helps on that front.

 

[Benderino]

Originally posted by phoenix_night

There aren't many of those incidents, and they do tend to happen in similar areas. Nazi sympathisers are hardly common, and there aren't any aryan only areas.

I believe it was Cimbri (I could be wrong, maybe someone else) who said there were in Germany and Denmark and elsewhere.

Anyway, when was the last time you've been here? I think you're making a lot of statements that you get from pop culture and stuff that isn't really true. It's just different.

 

[phoenix_night]

Originally posted by Benderino
I believe it was Cimbri (I could be wrong, maybe someone else) who said there were in Germany and Denmark and elsewhere.

Germany will be an obvious exception but even there...

And Denmark is but a small part of Europe.

Originally posted by Benderino
Anyway, when was the last time you've been here? I think you're making a lot of statements that you get from pop culture and stuff that isn't really true. It's just different.

Me? I'm the one making statements based on pop culture?



No, I'm not. Don't say there aren't split communities in the USA because they are commonly found. And casual racism is far more widely accepted in the USA. Actually, maybe not accepted, but common.

 

[Benderino]

Originally posted by phoenix_night

No, I'm not. Don't say there aren't split communities in the USA because they are commonly found. And casual racism is far more widely accepted in the USA. Actually, maybe not accepted, but common.

Yes, you said that already...I'm interested in how you know this, or think you know this.

 

[Darkness]

Originally posted by Yago
Against common-believe, no Swiss are not predominantly Blue-Eyed and Blonde. No sir, that's the dutch.

So untrue!
In the city I where I was born, Rotterdam, over 50% of the population is coloured. That makes it kind of hard to be predominantly blue-eyed and blonde, doesn't it?

Racism is everywhere, as is homophobia. Both are very wrong and simply quite dumb.