Is this an Exploit?

[A'AbarachAmadan]

If it is indeed as Memphus describes, then it is a bug.

Already ruled on by the staff, but just for debate, I disagree with you. It is not a bug. I've found that when I forest chop for a warrior, only 15 shields overflow, even if I already had some in the queue, so I ALWAYS switch to something else, like a worker or barracks. Being able to forest chop is the primary advantage, for me, for going for bronze working. Otherwise I would concentrate on other early techs. I 'waste' time on this one just for that ability if I have lots of forests.

 

[Ribannah]

That's not the bug (if Memphus is right about this).

The bug is that you should not be able to handle the entire settler production this way while growing every turn (but the last).
Overflow shields should go to what is built next, as they normally do, and not skip the next build, and accumulate until you have enough for an entire settler.

And this is just the first.

If the general attitude is that 'bugs are in the game so it's ok to exploit them, otherwise they would not have left them in', then that is a competition killer all over again.

 

[Memphus]

I believe someone has already mentioned the solution to this problem but can't find it

I would not be able to use this 'exploit...micromanagment...whatever' if as soon as my turn began the forest that was being chopped got applied to what i was building the previous turn.

The issue is the game goes to your 'active' unit first, thus you can 'make the production swap' mid turn

if the game simply had your worker finish his chop apply the shields to the warrior, accumulate the overflow, then go to the active unit then there would be no way to use it.

Everyone is right though you can only do this a couple of times...(for each city with forests) but from what I see with the experinced player (not me) extra turns of city growth at the beggining of the game could make a huge difference

On a side note when i get home i will created a game (cause i don't wanna spoil and GOTM ) with screen shots and walk through the whole thing, then the experts can really analyze it

 

[RonnieSoak]

I don't see this as even remotely game breaking. Yes, you've managed to keep growing while producing a settler, but the trade off is a consideradle delay in the production of that settler. Consider the following situation; your early scout units are out doing their thing, you've just produced your worker and want ot start on a settler. Let's say you have a total of 5 hammers+surplus food each turn. With 2 chops you can get a settler out in 10 turns of non-growth (doing things the non-MM way) or you can use the MM described in this thread and have a settle out in 15 turns (3 chops, 13 turns of growth, 2 of non-growth). This assumes each forest takes 5 turns to chop, 1 to move there and 4 for the chop. Note the advantage india has in the early game.

Both ways have their advantages. The non-MM way gets the settler out 5 turns earlier, meaning that your second city is up 5 turns earlier. Using MM, your capital has probably grown a point, and you've been producing units/buildings in the meantime.

It strikes me that which method is 'better' is highly situational. If your early scouts have found an ideal site for your second city, then non-MM is probably better. If good sitres are thin on the ground (lots of jungle/desert or few resources) then getting an extra unit or two out while delaying settler production by using the MM method would be more appropriate. MMing is probably also better for early warmongering.


Edited for clarity

 

[Puzzlinon]

I don't think it's an exploit at all. The build accounting has been changed to allow "priority interrupts" in general, without loss of progress. That's the new basic rule; you can put a build on hold for another.

Arguably it might be more "realistic" to have forests deliver their production over the course of chopping instead of all at the end, but then you'd need some fancy accounting for partially-chopped forests. And it doesn't take very long to chop a forest, so it's not worth the complication.

Also, it's part of the standard rules that forest chops accelerate settler construction, so if the population argument doesn't apply in general, then why would it apply to clever production schedules?

 

[DaviddesJ]

I would not be able to use this 'exploit...micromanagment...whatever' if as soon as my turn began the forest that was being chopped got applied to what i was building the previous turn.

No, it doesn't matter. You can cancel the pending order for your worker at the end of the previous turn, and then completing the 'chop forest' action won't happen until you order it, which would give you time to first switch production in the city to whatever you want.

The correct 'solution' would be for hammers from the 'chop forest' to go into the pool of unused production points, the same way that overflow production from the previous turn does. Rather than being directly applied to the 'current project'. But, who knows if Firaxis will see fit to fix this in a patch. There are a bunch of other production overflow/transfer problems they should fix, too.

 

[Memphus]

@ DaviddesJ

Cool Never even thought of that

Speaking of which does this also apply for any other worker action
if a barbarian gets close you run away with the worker (no unit to defend) and then come back?

 

[DaviddesJ]

I haven't tested if you can cancel any worker action partway through, and come back whenever you want to finish it. To some extent, I'm taking Vardis's word for it. I'll test this when I have a chance.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Now, please don't hit me if this has already beem mentioned, but let us not also forget the health giving qualities of forests, and how they contribute to the growth of your city-especially in the later game when you are building more polluting improvements. Remember, once those forests are gone, they are gone for GOOD, and could slow your later population growth when you need it most. So, to me, it sounds more like a strategic decision (and a MM nightmare to boot) rather than a genuine exploit.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Memphus]

Alright to start please refer to this thread on the GOTM to understand what is going on.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=143828

Reasons for a new thread:
1. more people look here than GOTM (usually 150-200 viewing vs. 20-30)
= more feedback
2. There are tons of pics so you were forwarned if you have low bandwidth.
3. A moderator can close this and just have the discussion continue somewhere else if it is more appropriate

By the way please don't rip on me for trying to up my post count by doing each segment in a different message...it is just so i can keep track of what is going on and heaven forbid by browser freeze 2/3 of the way through

Finally although I wish I had found this/posted about it first
credit goes to Willburn

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=142345

 

[Memphus]

Play now selected
Continents
climate: random
sealevel: random
world size: random
civilization: Indian ==> to exagerate what can be done
game speed normal
difficulty settler just cause i didn't want any trouble, but it works on prince

Turn actions
- Settler founded in place
2 immediate forests (this is usually the case from 1- 3 I find)
-Start a fast worker and reasearch bronze (i am not saying this is the best thing to do just illustrating an example)

 

[Memphus]

Culture expands now have 4 forests
lots of chopping potential
Sorry for the picture qualities My upload rate is really low

 

[Memphus]

Worker ready
start making a warrior (8 turns)
note setler would take 25 turns
note worker would take 15 turns
start chopping SE of city
city growth is in 11 turns

HAHA much better with .gif

 

[Memphus]

--note for this to work you need an active unit on the turn before (3360 B.C., this is why the warrior was moved out of the city and is just hanging out)

--here is the micromanagement
3320 B.C.(1) ==> building warrior (6), city gows in (9)
3320 B.C. (2) ==>switch to woker (this will be explored first, settler after)
3320 B.c. (3) ==> building worker..note chopped shields get applied now
3320 B.C. (4) ==> switch back to warrior, shields..i mean hammers still on worker

TADA still get growth for this turn

 

[Memphus]

Repeat procedure of 3320

--stupid why use gif when you can use jpeg..ahh graphics

 

[Memphus]

3160 B.C.
--note the production overflow from last turn of worker onto warrior
--but that isn't the issue here this is ok (except it applies the food as well)

2 workers
1 warrior almost done

lost growth (after original worker) == 1 turn

 

[Memphus]

3400 B.C.
--get crazy go for early religion to expand borders faster = more trees
--(note this prolly can't be done on higher levels, hence why this for discussions I am reading is not an exploit but an option in micro management)

3320 B.C.

 

[Memphus]

-- note I am individually putting the pictures in since I can't find a way to force them to open other wise...so very tired

As a side note I like computers I could probably figure out how to use all the options for posting but if someone knows of or would like to create a
"civ fanatics technical guide to posting"
i.e. how to quote, how to upload, etc.
I am sure many people especially all the new posters (myself included) would be

 

[Memphus]

The beggining of the turn

 

[Memphus]

the middle of the turn