Is this the reason for the 4000BC start?

The religious right would have had to have had very little to do with the selection of the time start because for one it still disagrees with their timeframe, which forces a beginning of "civilization" as we know it to around 2000 BC - 1700 BC with the Great Flood and the destruction of the Tower of Babel and the subsequent scattering of the nations. Naturally this is preposterous because the pyramids and known Egyptian dynasties, Chinese, and Mesopotamian, and Indian civilizations date back long before this period.

Most creationists are either ignorant of this discrepancy or ignore it. I've never seen a creationist give a decent response to this discrepancy nor many people bring it up to them.

Who the heck are you? The discussion is about why Sid chose 4000 bc as a start date. Not whether creationism is true or not. When the crap hits the fan, we don't know how old anything in or on the world is. NOTHING. We can theorize how old something is or guess at its age through the technology of the modern age but WE DON'T KNOW. And all creationists are ignorant? Well, here's a wake up call. At least half the globe (if not more) believe that creationism is the true explanation of how we are here. At least half. So unless HALF of the world is full of ignorant people who blindly follow a belief system, creationism may have some truth to it.

The bottom line is that no one knows the truth. So, instead of sitting in your mother's basement and bashing creationism which you obviously no nothing about, how about you either talk about why the start date is set at 4000 bc or leave this topic.
 
Who the heck are you? The discussion is about why Sid chose 4000 bc as a start date. Not whether creationism is true or not. When the crap hits the fan, we don't know how old anything in or on the world is. NOTHING. We can theorize how old something is or guess at its age through the technology of the modern age but WE DON'T KNOW. And all creationists are ignorant? Well, here's a wake up call. At least half the globe (if not more) believe that creationism is the true explanation of how we are here. At least half. So unless HALF of the world is full of ignorant people who blindly follow a belief system, creationism may have some truth to it.

The bottom line is that no one knows the truth. So, instead of sitting in your mother's basement and bashing creationism which you obviously no nothing about, how about you either talk about why the start date is set at 4000 bc or leave this topic.

If you hadn't noticed, the link at the top of this thread is to the wiki article for the Ussher Chronology (which dates the time of Creation to 4004 BC), and it was postulated that the Ussher Chronology was the reason that Sid chose 4000 BC as the starting date. Since this chronology is extremely influential on modern Christian creationists prevalent on the United States (part of the Christian Right mentioned in the thread), then what I am discussing is certainly relevant to the topic.

As far as the beliefs of "at least half" of the people in the world goes, I find it highly unlikely that 3 billion people adhere to the belief discussed in this thread that the earth is 6000 years old (hence the 4000 BC start date). For starters, China is a heavily atheist country and has over 1 billion people, and those of them with religious views are mostly not Christian, Jewish, or Muslim, which puts them outside of the tradition which estimates a 6000 year old age for the earth. The same can be said for the religious populations of India (Hindus believe the universe is much older than modern science postulates). Also members of different non-Abrahamic religions around the world have different ideas about the origin of the universe and their people that are not in line with the Ussher Chronology and the timeframe of the "Christian Right" mentioned here.

And as for me "knowing nothing" about creationism, I grew up in a conservative Christian home, church, and school so I was constantly exposed to the arguments and claims of modern Christian young-earth creationists. I also have a masters degree in history so I think I'm more than qualified to speak on this subject.
 
Creationism by definition is averse to logical thinking, proofs and knowledge. Why would you expect them to answer a specific and relatively minor discrepancy when the entirety of their idea is based on willfull ignorance?

The earth was flat according to the "logical thinking and knowledge" of the day well after some now-Biblical texts established otherwise (Isaiah 40:22, written late 8th century BC, Job 26:10 possibly 2000 BC?, Proverbs 8:27, 970-930 BC). People holding the belief that the earth was round contrary to common knowledge seemed crazy at the time, such as the conflicting views about the age of the earth today, but hindsight shows us which view reflected reality and who had the facts. We can see that what you call "willful ignorance" isn't always so ignorant.
 
If you hadn't noticed, the link at the top of this thread is to the wiki article for the Ussher Chronology (which dates the time of Creation to 4004 BC), and it was postulated that the Ussher Chronology was the reason that Sid chose 4000 BC as the starting date. Since this chronology is extremely influential on modern Christian creationists prevalent on the United States (part of the Christian Right mentioned in the thread), then what I am discussing is certainly relevant to the topic.

As far as the beliefs of "at least half" of the people in the world goes, I find it highly unlikely that 3 billion people adhere to the belief discussed in this thread that the earth is 6000 years old (hence the 4000 BC start date). For starters, China is a heavily atheist country and has over 1 billion people, and those of them with religious views are mostly not Christian, Jewish, or Muslim, which puts them outside of the tradition which estimates a 6000 year old age for the earth. The same can be said for the religious populations of India (Hindus believe the universe is much older than modern science postulates). Also members of different non-Abrahamic religions around the world have different ideas about the origin of the universe and their people that are not in line with the Ussher Chronology and the timeframe of the "Christian Right" mentioned here.

And as for me "knowing nothing" about creationism, I grew up in a conservative Christian home, church, and school so I was constantly exposed to the arguments and claims of modern Christian young-earth creationists. I also have a masters degree in history so I think I'm more than qualified to speak on this subject.

Well, please excuse me. I had no idea that you were so educated. I did not realize that when you get a degree in history that allows you to bash other prominent theories on the earth's creation. I mean, getting a college degree definitely means that you know more than the "uneducated" masses, right?

I regards to your rebuttal, I believe that you have just proven my point. If there are so many different views on the creation of the universe would that not prove that WE DON'T KNOW the truth? The fact that the Abrahamic religions say the Earth is around 6000 years old and can "prove" it, the atheists and their scientists say the Earth is much older and can "prove" it, and the other "non-Abrahamic religions" (as you called them) say the Earth is even older and can "prove" it show that humanity has not yet found a theory we can all agree to be true? The fact is no one knows for sure. So lets not sit here and bash creationism (with or without a masters in history) when the bottom line is that NO ONE knows the truth.

And yes, you were off topic. By saying things like "Most creationists are either ignorant of this discrepancy or ignore it. I've never seen a creationist give a decent response to this discrepancy nor many people bring it up to them." you were not discussing the effect of creationism on the start date but were bashing creationism as if you, being educated, know for a fact that the theory is wrong. Yes, you were off topic.

However, I do apologize for saying you knew nothing of creationism. What I should have said was that you are not discussing the theory but only bashing it. If you want to put forward your opinion on the matter, you should have at least done it in an intellectual way, rather than saying creationist are just ignorant. I would think that you, being college educated, would be able to enlighten us with a riveting explanation of the "false logic" behind creationism rather than simply bashing it in a topic that has nothing to do with the truth behind any theory but that has to do with an explanation of the starting date.
 
Well jeez, it is embarrassing to have to even argue whether or not the universe is less than or greater than 6010 years old. Only a tiny fraction of the people who understand the basic geology/anthropology/cosmology/etc concepts required in order to even have an informed opinion on this matter, would believe that the universe is so young.
 
Actually, the choice of 4000BC is not unreasonable at all. It roughly coincides with the spread of agriculture, rise of city-states, and domestication of animals (other than dogs). I also suggest that digression into a creationism versus science debate will quickly degenerate into pointless exchanges of vitriol and should encourage moderators to terminate this thread.

Let's try to confine this discussion to the question posed by the OP.
 
The fact that many people believe something is true does not make it true. And science is fundamentally different from religion because science relies upon testable data in order to make its claims. Any claims of science can be contested by other scientists with different theories. Religion makes its claims based on pronouncement or reference to an authority that has made a previous pronouncement. Scientists look at a problem and try to find the answer. Religionists already know the answer they seek based upon their traditions and scriptures and must interpret the evidence to fit their point of view.

Scientific studies of archaeology and history confirm that history goes back before 2000 BC (The postulated date of the Great Flood) and that the early civilizations began to appear around 4000 BC (the real reason for the start date).

Originally, I WAS discussing the reason for the start date if you read my previous comments. I stated that I believed that the Ussher Chronology dating was not influential in the choosing of the 4000 BC start date for the simple reason that that chronology would require a c. 2000 BC start date (Great Flood), or perhaps more appropriately a 1700 - 1600 BC start date (Tower of Babel). My "bashing" as you call it was an aside point, I admit, but a valid one. Why don't you respond to it though? Would you give serious scientific credence to the claim that we came out of the Ark almost 1000 years after the Great Pyramid is known to have been built? And if so, can you show us any reason an alternative theory is superior to the accepted historical record?
 
Don't wanna be picky, but the age of the Great Pyramid is not exactly written in stone ( in fact it is based in a sole set of painted grafitti that AFAIK was never tested for C14 ( most likely due to the scarcity of the sample ) and that had a very dubious use of hyerogliphs ... and on the tellings of a greek that lived atleast a hanful of millenia after the fact ;) ) But that doesn't count obviously for the discussion in hand, since that , if anything, the Mids would be older the kingdom of Queops ( and if the Mids were made with stone taken out of the Sphinx pit as it is widely believed, they have to be older , since the Sphinx itself has serious rain induced erosion ).

And obviously the Ussher chronology can't be the base for the date of the game start because we don't have a universal flood in turn 75 ;) That is a given ... :D
 
100% of the people who use my computer think I'm a god, so therefore I must be one, right? Because what the majority thinks is the truth, right?

Nobody "knows" what happened 6000 years ago any more than anyone "knows" what they had for breakfast yesterday. They can look at the evidence and draw conclusions, but ultimately it's just a best guess based on experience and evidence. There's a considerable amount of evidence that I had cereal yesterday, including the bowl, the consumption rate of milk and cereal, and I remember doing it, but there's a distinct possibility I had eggs and just don't remember.

Nonetheless, I'm going to say I DID have cereal yesterday because of the overwhelming evidence, and likewise I'm going to say that the overwhelming evidence suggests that Earth is much older than 6000 years by a factor of 3/4 of a million.

I've never seen 6.2 billion people, but I'm pretty sure they're around here somewhere. I've never seen air, but I'm pretty sure it's around here somewhere too.
 
Originally, I WAS discussing the reason for the start date if you read my previous comments. I stated that I believed that the Ussher Chronology dating was not influential in the choosing of the 4000 BC start date for the simple reason that that chronology would require a c. 2000 BC start date (Great Flood), or perhaps more appropriately a 1700 - 1600 BC start date (Tower of Babel). My "bashing" as you call it was an aside point, I admit, but a valid one. Why don't you respond to it though? Would you give serious scientific credence to the claim that we came out of the Ark almost 1000 years after the Great Pyramid is known to have been built? And if so, can you show us any reason an alternative theory is superior to the accepted historical record?

Here we go again. No. Science is not fundamentally different from religion. Secular scientists do exactly as you said, THEORIZE. They create theories and them put them to the test. Some theories, take gravity for example, can be tested true or false. Other THEORIES, such as the creation of the universe and life CAN NOT BE TESTED. Scientists can theorize about the creation of the universe but the bottom line is that they must have FAITH that their theory is true while other people's theories are wrong. This to me (although I don't have a masters in history) sounds a lot like religion-theorizing that we were created by a more powerful being and then putting that to the test in life. Just like the scientists, however, religious people can not prove their theory but must have FAITH that theirs is true while other people's are false. Again, I am not an educated scholar like yourself, but it seems to me that science and religion are not opposites.

"Scientific studies of archaeology and history confirm that history goes back before 2000 BC (The postulated date of the Great Flood) and that the early civilizations began to appear around 4000 BC (the real reason for the start date)." Correction: Scientific studies of archaeology and history THEORIZE that history goes back before 2000 BC. Unless these "scientists" are about 4000 years old they don't KNOW what occurred at any point in history. After all, its just as Voltaire said, "What is history? It is the lie everyone agrees upon." I can assure you right now that no one on Earth knows anything that happened in 2000 BC beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I would be glad to answer your questions.
You just don't seem to understand the point I am trying to make here. First of all, no one KNOWS for sure when the pyramids were built. The "accepted" historical record is as true to me as any other religion's beliefs. NO ONE knows anything about history beyond a shadow of a doubt! I don't know how else to put it. So, can I give you serious "scientific" credence to prove that the CHRISTIAN "form" of creationism is true beyond a shadow of a doubt? No, I can not. And I can not give you proof that the Hindus are right. And I can not give you proof that the Scientoligists are right or the Muslims or the Jews or the Buddhists or the Atheists. I can not give you definitive proof that any one theory is better or true over any other theory. The reason is that no one can say-definitively-which theory regarding the creation of life is true and which theory is false. Although, I am eager to hear what you BELIEVE to be "definitive" proof that the THEORY of creationism is false.
 
100% of the people who use my computer think I'm a god, so therefore I must be one, right? Because what the majority thinks is the truth, right?

Nobody "knows" what happened 6000 years ago any more than anyone "knows" what they had for breakfast yesterday. They can look at the evidence and draw conclusions, but ultimately it's just a best guess based on experience and evidence. There's a considerable amount of evidence that I had cereal yesterday, including the bowl, the consumption rate of milk and cereal, and I remember doing it, but there's a distinct possibility I had eggs and just don't remember.

Nonetheless, I'm going to say I DID have cereal yesterday because of the overwhelming evidence, and likewise I'm going to say that the overwhelming evidence suggests that Earth is much older than 6000 years by a factor of 3/4 of a million.

I've never seen 6.2 billion people, but I'm pretty sure they're around here somewhere. I've never seen air, but I'm pretty sure it's around here somewhere too.

Let me get this straight. If nobody "knows" what happened 6000 years ago, then why do you accept the thought of certain scientist? You just said that no one truly knows! I would love to hear this "overwhelming" evidence that proves the Earths age. Maybe I'm just stupid, but if this overwhelming evidence existed, I think that creationism would be nonexistent.

"They can look at the evidence and draw conclusions, but ultimately it's just a best guess based on experience and evidence." EXACTLY! It's just a guess! That's all any one's theory is! A guess that you have to have FAITH in. So why then are creationists so ignorant. Just because their guess does not line up with yours that makes them stupid? Athiest may be right and Religious people may be right. We act as though science and religion is so far apart. That science is above the blind and unintelligent theories of religion. Yet, science itself is full of theories that have not been proven that scientists (or others) have faith to be true. Why then are religions dumb and ignorant? It seems to me that atheism is but another religion.
 
Yes, science is different from religion. Science makes its claims based on observation of the universe. The age that scientists have for the earth and also for that of the universe are not simply made up numbers or simple pronouncements. It has been arrived at by a study of the evidence presented in the natural world: Rocks, stars, planets, animals, plants, the oceans, the ice, etc. The claims made in the Bible, Qu'ran, etc. are not based on such evidence but on tradition, that is the difference. Ussher got his dates not by studying the real world around him, but rather by taking the the known historical date of the fall of Jerusalem to Babylon and then adding up the numbers of the ages of the patriarchs found in the Bible. One date was based upon a study of the actual physical world and evidence we have plainly in front of us now, and the other was based on calculations made from a book of tradition. This is a basic fundamental difference. And further, the scientific dates can be questioned when someone comes up with better data, this makes science superior to scripture as science can change when it figures out its wrong and strict adherents to scripture end up clinging to something long shown to be factually in error. Eventually scientists may find a different age of the earth and the universe (they are separate things with separate ages), but it is not going to be anywhere approaching 6000 years, I guarantee you. The evidence totally points the other way. It would be like trying to plumb the depths of the ocean and declaring that it must be six inches deep because you had a book your mom gave you that said so.

As far as the whole "nobody knows anything" goes, if you take that very far it becomes extreme. The histories of ancient Sumer and Egypt are well established in their records and backed up by physical archaeology and carbon dating to well beyond 2000 BC. We have the kings lists for all the Egyptian dynasties and the Sumerian dynasties as well. Just because nobody is alive today who was alive in 2000 BC doesn't mean we can't have a decent idea of what was going on back then. Nobody today is alive who was also alive in 1880 AD either. Does that mean we know nothing about 1880 AD? This is like saying that the Wright Brothers couldn't have invented the airplane in 1903 because that was before "the flood" or some other event that destroys and remakes the whole earth, yet we have the airplane in use today and all of the writings point to that occurring. I used to amuse myself when I was a kid with the thought that the only thing real in the world was probably my local area and that far off countries like Japan and China and England were probably just made up stuff. After all, I had never been over there to see them. I realize that the mountain of evidence shows that these places are indeed real, so this amusing notion I entertained is implausible. If you really want to accept something like this, why not believe that the world is only a day old and that we were created last night along with all of the false memories of our lives? It's certainly a simpler explanation.

If you want to claim that modern humanity started with 8 people around 2000 BC, then you have to explain how the world could have been completely populated and established civilizations each with their own very very different traditions within only a few hundred years or less. You need to come up with a decent explanation as to why the Biblical chronology is at odds with the established historical timelines of other civilizations, and you need to come up with an alternative chronology for those civilizations that explains the discrepancy and fits their histories, and the general history of all non-Israelite people (Including the indigenous people of Australia and the Americas), into that Biblical timeframe and the generations of the nations mentioned in Genesis. This is what I meant when I said that I haven't seen any creationist adequately address this.

And this is only from the historical perspective. It is even harder from the biological perspective to seriously entertain the population growth figures, especially in pre-modern medicine society, necessary to repopulate the whole earth (including Australia and the Americas) from 8 people from 2000 BC in a way that is consistent with known population levels in various parts of the earth at various times (The Romans did take censuses and we have a general idea of the actual population of the city at various times during the Empire). I suppose if you think people used to live to be 900 years old (and even to 200 years old for the first millennium after the flood, in spite of the evidence from human remains of the period that show people were lucky to live to 40 back then) then they could have a lot more kids. An even more colossal problem from the biological perspective is trying to figure out how the world, being stripped bare of plant and animal life in 2000 BC, could have made such a dramatic recovery by now from a single seed point and spread over the world in their current patterns in such a short time.
 
I don't know for a fact that the Earth is round. To be honest, I haven't traveled to the other side of it so for all I know it could be flat. That said, I'm happy to put my faith in a well established scientific theory that the Earth is round. Why? Because it has overwhelming evidence in support of it. In fact, one of the tests that give evidence to the theory can be done in my own backward with some simple tools like a ruler, the sun's shadow, and some equations.
It's possible it's all wrong, but in science we are prepared to accept things that are sufficiently proven. Outside of mathematics/logic and arguably some areas of philosophy, there is nothing that can be proven without doubt. That's ok though. I'm still happy to accept that the theory of gravity is a good model in reality because it provides a framework for making future predictions - in other words, things that can actually be useful to me.

When it comes to the age of the Earth, there are a ridiculous amount of evidence supporting the theory of Evolution and other things establishing an approximate timeframe for the age of the Earth. I'm sorry to say but it is nowhere near mere thousands of years, but rather on the order of millions or billions of years (I don't care about stating the official exact number :lol:) Preferring to believe alternative hypotheses becomes an act of believing in very very unlikely scenarios. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's not a scientific way of going about things.

Religion has a purpose in the lives of many people in this world - probably the majority of people. I don't want to take that away from them. But frankly there is a difference between Religion and Science. It's baffling to see an objection to that. They don't have to be "opposites" (whatever that means!) for them to be different. It's true that many scientists have "faith" in theories they have not personally verified but it is a practical thing to do.

Really this is such a pointless debate. From experience, a scientist arguing with a religious person over "theories" rarely gets anywhere.
 
I don't know for a fact that the Earth is round. To be honest, I haven't traveled to the other side of it so for all I know it could be flat.
I know for sure that the earth is not flat and I don't need to go further away than my window to know it ... since i live in a coastal area with lots of ship movement. So I see atleast 3 times a day the "sinking sink" optical ilusion, a thing that can't ever happen with a flat Earth :p Not that this forces a round Earth ( it can be only locally convex ), but definitely excludes a flat Earth :D

P.S What you sugest implies the assumption that the sun rays are paralel. You can use the same experiment to prove that the sun is +/- 6000 km away from the surface of Earth and has the size of a third of the Peleponese, Greece , if you assume in the first place that the Earth is flat ;)
 
Ah, but rolo, you are automatically assuming your eyes do not deceive you. ;) You can't prove with 100% certainty the Earth is not flat. Of course, your observations are strong evidence. Even your proof of the earth being not flat based on sinking ship observations depends on other assumptions like the straight line nature of light in the area you're talking about.
 
Ah, but rolo, you are automatically assuming your eyes do not deceive you. ;) You can't prove with 100% certainty the Earth is not flat. Of course, your observations are strong evidence. Even your proof of the earth being not flat based on sinking ship observations depends on other assumptions like the straight line nature of light in the area you're talking about.
True enough, but it would be seriously strange for the rays of light to only bend when ships in sea are involved ;), because, if the area had some global and uniform effect on the rays of light, the ilusion would still be proof ... as long as you assume that Descartes did not ressurected his demon and he is not working full speed to deceive me :p
 
True enough, but it would be seriously strange for the rays of light to only bend when ships in sea are involved ;), because, if the area had some global and uniform effect on the rays of light, the ilusion would still be proof ... as long as you assume that Descartes did not ressurected his demon and he is not working full speed to deceive me :p

lol I resisted the temptation to mention Descartes. Now you're supposing the effect on rays of light in the area needs to be uniform. :lol:

And don't worry, I am fairly satisfied with the evidence showing the Earth is round.:D
 
I didn't assumed that they were uniform, i just said that they needed to be non uniform in a very specific manner to produce the sinking ship ilusion without a convex curvature ;) But yes, let's let the round earth/flat earth/concave earth debates for the OT section :p
 
I dunno. The OT moderators mightn't appreciate it. :)

Btw, why does the manner need to be very specific? Much of what we supposedly see with our eyes is constructed in our mind anyway. My favourite example to think about, related to this, is the first sightings of European ships by native Americans, where many simply could not see the ship. However, it's entirely possible that too is a myth. :)
 
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