That or the +2 gold per city one. Tithe likely beats it out in the long-run, but it can be a long time before Church Property gets beat. Average of 12 followers per city is needed to beat it, where as if you get religion up fast and spreads like wildfire along all those low pop cities across the map, that +2 gold adds up fast.
is Tithe a no-brainer?
- Thread starter Autoclave
- Start date
You cant buy great people with gold. Pilgrimmage over tithe any day, especially on huge maps epic/marathon. You pound out GP's faster than you can make them naturally, with a city stacked to make GP's. On large maps, I can usually get 350-500+ faith/t during industrial age. hardest part is saving faith up and not making too many prophets before industrial age.
Want a sickening religious experience? Byzantine, with tithe+ pilgrimmage+ glory of god on a huge map. If you get a desert start+ desrt folklore, you'll feel like god come industrial age. Only has this happen once in 20+ games as Byz. And I had Mt Sinai in my city radius(moving 2 turns to make it work).Large/marathon/diety. Even with no desert folklore, you can get 400+ fpt.
Gold is worthless when you have God.
Want a sickening religious experience? Byzantine, with tithe+ pilgrimmage+ glory of god on a huge map. If you get a desert start+ desrt folklore, you'll feel like god come industrial age. Only has this happen once in 20+ games as Byz. And I had Mt Sinai in my city radius(moving 2 turns to make it work).Large/marathon/diety. Even with no desert folklore, you can get 400+ fpt.
Gold is worthless when you have God.
Take Tithe or +culture from followers, take faster or further spread when you enchant it, then nuke CS with missionaries and keep spamming them. Ask for open boarders from AI, then just keep nuking his Capital with missionaries (but don't let it convert to your religion, because of diplo hits). You'll have ton of gold or culture per turn just from religion.
It works even better with AIs that love spamming dozens of 3 pop cities.
sendos
Immortal
I should try this method out one time. Only problem is that pilgrimage only works on foreign followers, unless I'm mistaken (I'll have to check this again). So the only way this would work is if you are on a continent filled with non-believer civs. The highest faith generation I've achieved is around 250fpt and that consisted of a wide empire with piety.
I might also know a potential no-brainer enhancer belief, and that is itinerant preachers. Religion will spread much faster than religious texts. Only issue is grabbing it before other religious civs.
kaspergm
Deity
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2012
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- 5,830
Depending on the layout of the land and who has competing religions going, I often find myself picking Initiation Rites over Tithe. Particularly if I'm neighbor to someone who's very aggressive towards religion, I find it's easier to just claim those fast 100 Gold and then not worry about whether the city is subsequently converted to another religion. If I can get Borobudur (arguable not that easy) and take over a good number of city states and perhaps one or two other civs before they actively start spreading their own religion, that's a lot of fast cash in early game.
I'm usually much more limited by happiness than gold in my games (I prefer a wide style). Gold is too easy to get already, so I very rarely take Tithe and instead go for the happiness belief (even in its nerfed state).
Then again, I only play on prince, maybe gold has more benefits on higher levels.
Then again, I only play on prince, maybe gold has more benefits on higher levels.
Aussie_Lurker
Deity
Ever since Brave New World, I've been trying to pick up Church Property myself. Though in my last game it was a tough choice between Church Property & the one that gives you happiness (as I expanded *way* too quickly in the early game ;-) ).
Aussie.
Aussie.
sendos
Immortal
Which one? Ceremonial burial (+1
per 2 cities following your religion; used to be per 1 city before it was nerfed) or peace loving (+1 per 8 non-warring foreign followers). Initiation rites has never amazed me because I always think ahead in the game. Sure, initation rites could boost my finances early, but I could end up making that sort of money anyway via tithe. Similar to the foreign follower bonus beliefs like pilgrimage, initiation rites work well if you are first or 2nd person to get your religion rolling.
kaspergm
Deity
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2012
- Messages
- 5,830
Problem is it's not only the amount of money that matters, but also the time you get it. I find money are much more tight in early game, and Initiation rites can net me a very fast early gold boost. Later in game, I normally have good economy even without the gold from Tithe.
There are 2 general religious situations in the game: (1) you will succeed in spreading your religion to many cities, and (2) your religion will be limited to your territory or at best some nearby cities.
(1) It's either tithe or +2
per foreign city. Culture and happiness boosts were good until BNW when they got significantly nerfed. +1
/4
is usually better than +2/city on smaller maps and still quite good on big maps since you cannot spread your religion everywhere just like that. Moreover, the +2/city gets weaker with every passing turn, while tithe gets stronger and stronger.
+2 is extremely useful for wide empires that created their religion very early and therefore have access to at least 1 religious building. Add a decent reformation belief and you've won the game.
(2) If you know that you will be struggling with maintaining your religion, surrendering this field of gameplay is often the optimal choice. Damage control consists in such cases of reaping the best benefits a short-time strategy can yield. Initiation rites are great and ecumenical dialogue can provide you with some additional if you are willing to go to war for that. AI doesn't take enemy conversions lightly.
Tithe is a good choice here if your empire is going to be very tall. 100 pop will yield you ~20gpt easily and a mix of diplomacy, inquisitors and soldiering should protect this benefit.
(1) It's either tithe or +2
per foreign city. Culture and happiness boosts were good until BNW when they got significantly nerfed. +1/4 is usually better than +2/city on smaller maps and still quite good on big maps since you cannot spread your religion everywhere just like that. Moreover, the +2/city gets weaker with every passing turn, while tithe gets stronger and stronger.+2
is extremely useful for wide empires that created their religion very early and therefore have access to at least 1 religious building. Add a decent reformation belief and you've won the game.(2) If you know that you will be struggling with maintaining your religion, surrendering this field of gameplay is often the optimal choice. Damage control consists in such cases of reaping the best benefits a short-time strategy can yield. Initiation rites are great and ecumenical dialogue can provide you with some additional
if you are willing to go to war for that. AI doesn't take enemy conversions lightly.Tithe is a good choice here if your empire is going to be very tall. 100 pop will yield you ~20gpt easily and a mix of diplomacy, inquisitors and soldiering should protect this benefit.
Alziel
Warlord
I used to take Tithe all the time but recently I've grown fond of Church Property.
As others have said, Tithe is better over time and on higher difficulty levels but if you are first to a Religion (or first to get a Religion on your continent), Church Property can pay dividends.
Consider that a city requires at least 8 followers to get +2 gold - if a city converts to your religion when it has 4 or less population you are probably going to have a while to wait before you even get +1 gold from that city. Church Property will give you +2 gold immediately, even if the converted city is only 1 Population in size.
Like most Religious Beliefs, their strength depends on many factors - difficulty level, map size, how early/late you are to get a Religion, your commitment to Religion, terrain etc, etc - not to mention your own personal play style.
I still take Tithe often but I have learned from many, many different games that it is not always going to be the best choice.
As others have said, Tithe is better over time and on higher difficulty levels but if you are first to a Religion (or first to get a Religion on your continent), Church Property can pay dividends.
Consider that a city requires at least 8 followers to get +2 gold - if a city converts to your religion when it has 4 or less population you are probably going to have a while to wait before you even get +1 gold from that city. Church Property will give you +2 gold immediately, even if the converted city is only 1 Population in size.
Like most Religious Beliefs, their strength depends on many factors - difficulty level, map size, how early/late you are to get a Religion, your commitment to Religion, terrain etc, etc - not to mention your own personal play style.
I still take Tithe often but I have learned from many, many different games that it is not always going to be the best choice.
I rather take Dialog if there is some persistent missionary spammer.(2) If you know that you will be struggling with maintaining your religion, surrendering this field of gameplay is often the optimal choice. Damage control consists in such cases of reaping the best benefits a short-time strategy can yield. Initiation rites are great and ecumenical dialogue can provide you with some additional
Tithe is a good choice here if your empire is going to be very tall. 100 pop will yield you ~20gpt easily and a mix of diplomacy, inquisitors and soldiering should protect this benefit.
It's this. The founder beliefs need not, and indeed should not be "about equal and balanced". The better belief is your reward for creating a religion before the others. However, this first-come-first-served principle then automatically means that the AI must understand their relative strength ranking and pick accordingly. It's also very ok to have beliefs that are highly situational but again the AI must then understand when to pick them.
It would be boring if it didn't matter whether you are the first, second, or last one who founds a religion. It's a race against the others so it should be treated as such.
doesn't interfaith dialogue overlap with Great Scientist faith purchase? you are using faith to acquire a unit who will give you science.
I tried that one just one time, and I happen to spawn surrounded by Huns, Zulus and Assyria. All three of them love dropping cities left and right. I was richest player in the world.
I Dont fill Rationalism most of the time, especially after patch. Commerce are my top priority.
Id rather buy army or city from the ground, than have lost of science and no use of it since i'm short on hammers\gold
Ninakoru
A deity on Emperor
To get the 2 gold, you need 8, not 12.
Unlike church property you get gold also from converted people in cities under other religions. It's easy to have 2 to 4 pop of your religion in every city under your converted cities influence ratio. But yeah, to gold, Church Property is a short term approach that can be quickly profitable.
Yeah, but 2 FPT is much stronger than 2 GPT, and there's a snowball effect implied, quickly you will be poping missionaries like there's no tomorrow. Is my close second, and if I want mad faith generation is the way to go.
Alziel
Warlord
Correct - but then that's a tie not a win. Matthew was saying that you need 12 followers with Tithe to beat State Property.
