Is Toku suicidal?

[theskibum]

Minor nitpick - upgraded Samurai and new rifles both get D1, so you don't gain it by upgrading. Statement might confuse new players.

Toku has excellent gunpowder units and is definitely best played aggressively which uses his advantages. If you can get the economy running (no economic traits) he's very good, but the economy is the problem. AI Toku occassionally gets lucky, as does Monty if the setup favors him.

Samurai just have inherent first strikes, not the actual drill promo which his rifles get by virtue of PRO trait

 

[Archon_Wing]

Hmm, I just noticed his UB. It's a power plant that is better than coal plant and doesn't require coal... couldn't you build that in a national park city?

 

[Peregrine]

Toku does seem to be suicidal in most games I play where he appears.

Best example I can think of was this game; Toku north of me w/large empire. Bad diplo stuff as a herald of things to come. Finally, DoW and I'm at war w/him. But I'm ready for it, and after destroying his army in a trap, go over to the offensive. City after city falls, and finally my forces close in on the last Japanese city. On a whim, I offer peace. I believed that that would be all from him and that he'd probably get conquered by another nearby empire, considering his weak position. No, not a chance. 15 turns or so later, w/ONE city, he DoWs on me again! If that wasn't suicidal, I don't know what is.

But every so often, he does well. I recall a game in which I was on a small (for huge/marathon) continent w/the Russians. Conquered them and had the place all to myself. But on the other continent (was using the continents map, obviously), big free-for-all w/multiple empires. Eventually, Toku comes out on top. He vassals three other empires and is the largest on the map. (at the end he DoWed on me but fought a long distance naval war. I was ready for it, though, and it went on till the SS-AC. He never made peace, and lost a LOT of ships.)

 

[thecaesar]

I don't know, I rather like Tokugowa... I remember one game where I was playing the 1000 AD Scenario, and I was Japan. I, of course, settled as much land off of my island as possible, taking the Phillipines, East Indies, New Guinea (All with things like spices, gold, dye, etc.) Then, I settled almost all the way up the coast of russia that borders the pacific, and DoW'd the mongolians (This was the old one with no Korea or Khmer). I brought them down to one city, then China, who hated me for being Buddhist (BTW, somehow mongolia was JUDAISM, figure that), and then spain, for the same reason, and then russia, for the same reason...yeah that wasn't a good game diplomacy wise, but I had Ironclads and, since I could easily navigate the Pacific (lots of coast), I destroyed Izzy's Frigates and Galleons. I also had Infantry, many with "VS Mounted" promotions, which took care of her knights (and also russia's) and later her cavalry. Also, the reason I was so far ahead technologically was that in the old 1000 AD (IDK about the new one for BTS), with Japan you could build the Oracle right away, then choose philosophy or whatever and get another free tech! Anyways, I held up against Russia, Spain, China, and Mongolia, though I was so busy defending I couldn't take any of China's citys or build a large enough naval force to travel all the way to spain to take anything of theirs. But I suppose this whole thing is pointless, since in the original version Toku was Agg/Org... oh well I told my story, right?

 

[uat2d]

I find it kinda funny how this topic started out as a 'Toku sucks' thread and ended up as a 'Toku is actually kinda awesome' thread

 

[theskibum]

I find it kinda funny how this topic started out as a 'Toku sucks' thread and ended up as a 'Toku is actually kinda awesome' thread

If played right by the human, yes, Toku can be amazing. I think the general consensus is AI Toku typically sucks due to his not opening borders until Pleased.

 

[Lone Wolf]

It's not really not opening borders, it's the fact that he refuses to trade techs at lower then Pleased, and is willing to trade only techs that are already known to almost everyone at Pleased.

 

[thecaesar]

yeah, he isn't that smart of an AI, well diplomacy wise at least... but if he's on a team it helps him massively. I remember ANOTHER game (this was my brother's) where he put everyone in teams of 2 on the oasis map. He was right next to a team of tokugowa and saladin, while his teammate (cathy) was separated from him by britain and america, who refused to make open borders. So toku hates him (My brother is always making those aggresive types mad ) and declares war on him. However, due to saladin being on his team, apparently their diploacy was a bit better, because toku didn't decide to declare war on anyone ELSE. What's funny is that Saladin and Cathy were like, "eh, go ahead and fight." They didn't really even do anything! AI's make me laugh...

 

[Orange Scout]

I laughed how Toku sucked because the AI chose an Isolationist stategy, but every occasion he does well in some case, if not most. I almost have a 60% chance of meeting him in every game I make...

 

[The7Sins]

Well Toku is certainly suicidal in my current game. He is one of the weakest militarily in the game yet for some unknown reason he declared on Hammurabi his neighbor. What makes this suicidal is Ham has defensive pacts with me, Genghis, and Monty #s 1, 2, and 3 militarily and Ham himself is around middle of the pack in strength. Then add to the fact I have Boudica as a Peace Vassal (she is one of the few as weak as him) and Toku just declared on 5 civs very pissed off @ him and 3 of those 5 are warmongers with enough units to take over the world if any of us so chose.

 

[Ataxerxes]

Well Toku is certainly suicidal in my current game. He is one of the weakest militarily in the game yet for some unknown reason he declared on Hammurabi his neighbor. What makes this suicidal is Ham has defensive pacts with me, Genghis, and Monty #s 1, 2, and 3 militarily and Ham himself is around middle of the pack in strength. Then add to the fact I have Boudica as a Peace Vassal (she is one of the few as weak as him) and Toku just declared on 5 civs very pissed off @ him and 3 of those 5 are warmongers with enough units to take over the world if any of us so chose.

A lot of the more aggressive AI's can do that. Maybe an AP resolution of defensive pacts and then somebody attacks. I've seen more than one AI vote in the AP for defensive pacts with all members and then attack another member. "How to Dogpile Yourself in one easy lesson!"

Monty is famous for doing this. I've seen an AI Monty, horribly backward, declare on me when I had about 3x his power. He couldn't even reach me because he didn't have Astronomy.

 

[thecaesar]

yes; I'm playing 1000 ad as Charlie, and I met monty; 2 turns later, when he was cautious with me and had no astronomy (maybe no optics either, idk), he DoW's me!!!

Me:

 

[The7Sins]

A lot of the more aggressive AI's can do that. Maybe an AP resolution of defensive pacts and then somebody attacks. I've seen more than one AI vote in the AP for defensive pacts with all members and then attack another member. "How to Dogpile Yourself in one easy lesson!"

Monty is famous for doing this. I've seen an AI Monty, horribly backward, declare on me when I had about 3x his power. He couldn't even reach me because he didn't have Astronomy.

Thing is with the above with Toku it is one of the rare times I've seen an AI willingly get himself dogpiled with no AP involvement.

 

[danjuno]

Yes, Toku is coded to be terminally stupid. It's historically inaccurate since the isolation policy was put in place by his descendants, he himself actually went trade crazy with the West.