Is Toku suicidal?

vornan19

vornan19

Chieftain
Joined
Feb 2, 2011
Messages
99
Location
England
Here's the scenario:
Toku - Buddhist
Rest of the world - Taoist. Lots of happy faces

For some reason I'm his Worst Enemy. Not sure why. Perhaps because of a few thousand years of this -

Toku - Give me...
Me - No, Toku.
Toku - Stop trading with...
Me - No, Toku.
Toku - Declare war on...
Me - No, Toku.
Toku - Give me...
Me - Go away Toku.

Surprisingly he DoW'd me. I visited all of my friends (ie everyone), sold them some rifles and, hey presto, no more Toku.
I didn't even have to get my hands dirty - I just sent some Redcoats along as 'observers'. Is he hard-coded to be terminally stupid? I've yet to see him last an entire game.
 
Toku almost is hard-coded to be terminally stupid. He doesn't Open Borders, so his trade route income is poor and he falls behind in research. He doesn't expand very fast, falls behind. It isn't just the human, he seems to go out of his way to TO the other AI's as well. Let's see - poor expansion, poor diplo, doesn't open borders. Plays like a noob. It is very rare for Toku to do well. Admittedly his traits make him harder for a human, but not that bad.

Another is Monty. Traits are OK, great UB. He builds 500 obsolete units and no infrastructure. He then attacks somebody twice as powerful. His 200 Jaguars don't stand up too well to Bombers and Riflemen. He can do well if he has one opponent at a time but usually isn't a factor.

A lot of the AI's are coded to play poorly in some aspect.
 
Yes. He is very stupid. But i fail so hard at war i can't even
win against him yet. Also, Monty is an AZTEC. They're backwards!

Just like in history..
 
I have played as Toku in lots (LOTS) of games with huge and epic as settings. Huge long games.
He really doesn't have a lot of advantages after his Samurai UU is outdated.
As an AI opponent he is a nonentity. However the Korean's UU is freakishly good. Try it, you'll like it.
 
Technically I wouldn't say hard-coded since he uses the same code as all other leaders. However, his settings and priorities indeed do make him play "stupid" usually. His main problem is that he doesn't make friends (and as Ataxerxes already said, not opening borders plays a huge part in that), so when the power blocks form, he's often the odd one out. He's trying an isolationist strategy in a game which gives huge advantages to players who work together (trade income, swapping research, mutual support during wars ...). He's more a flavor AI than a serious contender.
 
Rugbyleaguefan said:
Honorable mention to Toku on marathon in the hands of the human player.

With units being far better builds at this speed he sure builds some nice ones , and on huge maps on marathon even walls have their time and place
Click to expand...

I agree. However, if you play 'Total Realism' then Toku is a total loss. Maybe it's just me but I always end up diseased in some jungle and eventually dead. Maybe it's TR?
Could be. That mod kicks my ass. Every time.

Haven't beat it even once. Even after fighting off the millions of barbarians. Millions.
It is a very good mod, but seriously, way too many barbarians.

Boo hoo, I know.
 
Short answer: Yes
 
If they had to have an isolationist AI (and he's the only one, which makes it all the sillier), then a FIN leader would've been better.
 
They could have added a few benefits to isolationalist play too . Maybe a boost to espionage points if you direct them at a Civ you have closed borders with or boost to relations with Civs that have mutual closed borders ( "you have refused to deal with our enemies "positive modifier) . Just a thought.
 
As an AI he's terrible but I kinda like playing as him. A maceman with 2 first strikes, drill and combat 1 is freaking bananas.
 
DrDragun said:
As an AI he's terrible but I kinda like playing as him. A maceman with 2 first strikes, drill and combat 1 is freaking bananas.
Click to expand...

He's actually one of the weakest Civ's if played by a human. He's always in contention for the worst Civ polls. Samurai is nice but Protective and Aggressive are weaker traits. His UB comes quite late but is adequate if the game goes on long enough. But Protective is generally regarded as the weakest trait, followed by Aggressive. Free Combat I is nice, but traits like Charismatic work out better overall.

Admittedly he isn't as bad as the AI plays him. He isn't so poor that a human playing at a level comfortable for them couldn't win with him. But he's almost always pathetic if he's an AI.
 
Yeah and it doesn't help that this game kinda discourages medieval war. It seems the best war periods are always ancient axe/chariot or economy boom until rifle/cannon. I rarely find myself doing an xbow/knight/trebuchet war (unless maybe i got elephants) which is too bad but I'm still kinda new. That period comes and goes right when you need to really start booming cottages, at least in my experience so far.
 
The main reason he is so bad is that he won't trade anything (I think) unless he's pleased. Which is very hard to do without trading. Vicious circle and all that.

The lack of economic traits is also a serious downer on top of that.
 
Of course, he's not someone you really want to see if you've built the Great Lighthouse, or you're trying for (heaven forfend...) an AP cheese win. (Although there are ways around this.)
 
Just to highlight that there is an exception to every rule; the last game I played went very well for Toku.

I played as Liz, thinking my Financial triat would give me a chance at winning on Monarch. Got Ragnar and Toku as neighbours. "Looks like I may have to invest in some defensive units" I thought.

Toku declared war against Ragnar several times, but it always ended with no resolution.
The next time he declared was still in the Ancient era, with swords and axes being his troops of choice. Ragnar asked for help and I agreed, thinking that it would bet better to have him onside after Toku has failed to take any Scandinavian cities yet again.

To my surprise, Toku took every one of Ragnar's cities, then moved his horrificly large SoDs into my lands. He refused to accept peace until I offered him my second city as a sweetener.

I gave up a few turns later as my economy was in ruins and I was way behind in everything at that point.

Good for you Toku!
 
Ataxerxes said:
He's actually one of the weakest Civ's if played by a human. He's always in contention for the worst Civ polls. Samurai is nice but Protective and Aggressive are weaker traits. His UB comes quite late but is adequate if the game goes on long enough. But Protective is generally regarded as the weakest trait, followed by Aggressive. Free Combat I is nice, but traits like Charismatic work out better overall.

Admittedly he isn't as bad as the AI plays him. He isn't so poor that a human playing at a level comfortable for them couldn't win with him. But he's almost always pathetic if he's an AI.
Click to expand...

In the hands of a human, his riflemen are pretty good, especially if you curb stomp some poor AI with your samurai and then upgrade your CR3 samurai to rifles (gaining drill 1). Build some more rifles that get C1/D1 out of the gate in a city with barracks, a couple GG's, you know for promos, and you can build a FORMIDABLE force. I don't find him weak at all in the hands of a human, you just need to play aggressively from the beginning and insure that you get good cottaging land. Basically start the war machine early and don't stop it until domi/diplo mation is assured!

Parmenion said:
Just to highlight that there is an exception to every rule; the last game I played went very well for Toku.

I played as Liz, thinking my Financial triat would give me a chance at winning on Monarch. Got Ragnar and Toku as neighbours. "Looks like I may have to invest in some defensive units" I thought.

Toku declared war against Ragnar several times, but it always ended with no resolution.
The next time he declared was still in the Ancient era, with swords and axes being his troops of choice. Ragnar asked for help and I agreed, thinking that it would bet better to have him onside after Toku has failed to take any Scandinavian cities yet again.

To my surprise, Toku took every one of Ragnar's cities, then moved his horrificly large SoDs into my lands. He refused to accept peace until I offered him my second city as a sweetener.

I gave up a few turns later as my economy was in ruins and I was way behind in everything at that point.

Good for you Toku!
Click to expand...

You got schooled by Toku!!!:lol: ..........he got me once too, very similar story
 
theskibum said:
In the hands of a human, his riflemen are pretty good, especially if you curb stomp some poor AI with your samurai and then upgrade your CR3 samurai to rifles (gaining drill 1). Build some more rifles that get C1/D1 out of the gate in a city with barracks, a couple GG's, you know for promos, and you can build a FORMIDABLE force. I don't find him weak at all in the hands of a human, you just need to play aggressively from the beginning and insure that you get good cottaging land. Basically start the war machine early and don't stop it until domi/diplo mation is assured!

You got schooled by Toku!!!:lol: ..........he got me once too, very similar story
Click to expand...

Minor nitpick - upgraded Samurai and new rifles both get D1, so you don't gain it by upgrading. Statement might confuse new players.

Toku has excellent gunpowder units and is definitely best played aggressively which uses his advantages. If you can get the economy running (no economic traits) he's very good, but the economy is the problem. AI Toku occassionally gets lucky, as does Monty if the setup favors him.
 
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