1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

"Islam is violent! Just read the Koran to see for yourself!"

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Phlegmak, Sep 10, 2007.

  1. Phlegmak

    Phlegmak Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2005
    Messages:
    10,966
    Location:
    Nowhere
    The statement in the title of the thread is true. Islam is indeed inherently violent. However, if you've read the Bible, you should know that the Bible is overflowing with violence, plenty of it ordered by god. So obviously, Christianity is inherently violent as well.

    Today, the majority of Christians and Muslims are obviously not violent. That's easy to see, since 51% of the people you see around you don't go around hitting other people, or killing other people on a daily basis, or wishing to kill people on a daily basis. (I would add though that the Christians in favor of war are indeed proviolence, but I think that's much less than 51% of Christians, and I think the proviolence of these people isn't related to religion.)

    Anyway, Christians will eternally have trouble criticising Muslims as being violent. Any Christian who says, "Hey, look at the Koran! It's got violence in it!" will have to then defend the Bible. The Bible is loaded with violence, so anyone can say, "Hey, did you notice what the Bible says?" (I'm ignoring the fact that this is a bad argument tactic. That's a different subject.)

    The good thing about these holy books is that people don't truly follow them. Isn't that nice? All this talk about the Koran and the Bible being good guides for morality is completely useless! They're both incredibly poor guides for morality. Generally what people do is only follow parts of either book, and reject the rest. Because people do that, that clearly and obviously shows that those books are just not good guides for morality.

    One other thing. I'd like to show examples of people who are proviolence due to religion and people who are proviolence not due to religion.

    Proviolence due to religion: Osama bin Laden, Becky Fischer (female camp manager in Jesus Camp)
    Proviolence not due to religion: Saddam Hussein, Bill Kristol

    Becky Fischer is proviolence due to her desire to turn Christian children into soldiers. She actually admires the violence and fervor that Palestinians teach their children.
     
  2. Mirc

    Mirc Not mIRC!!!

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2005
    Messages:
    15,825
    Location:
    Düsseldorf, ->Germany, E.U.
    Of course, especially the Old Testament contains lots of violence (I would argue that the Old Testament is not even part of Christianity itself, but a part of its ancestor - Judaism, but there are Christians who will disagree).

    Anyway, that's not the point. One of the main purposes of Christianity, as I see it, is eliminating violence. While I don't see Islam make a target from as little violence as possible. That's the difference. :)


    Edit: Oh and Christians who support violence are total hypocrites... Either that, or they understood nothing of the real essence of the religion. Usually a combination of both.
     
  3. skadistic

    skadistic Caomhanach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2004
    Messages:
    15,239
    Location:
    Land of Mary
    The Quarn says to kill the unbeliever, the bible does not. Yes both have violence but the reasons are vastly different.
     
  4. Phlegmak

    Phlegmak Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2005
    Messages:
    10,966
    Location:
    Nowhere
    Joshua was ordered by god to destroy Jericho and kill every man, woman, and child. So this is a-ok with god! At some point early in the Old Testament, there is a list of all the peoples whom the Hebrews completely wiped out. Genocide is a-ok with god!

    Actually, I can't think of a place in the Bible that specifically says that Christians should kill unbelievers, but it does have other juicy stuff. For example, cutting off your own body parts that have "caused" you to sin. So if I gamble one day, and that'll lead me to Hell, I should chop off my hand.
     
  5. FeelGood

    FeelGood Emphatic Diplomat

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2002
    Messages:
    351
    "Violence" is only the last resort when there's no other method work. Also, read in context not in isolation, then we'll understand why.
     
  6. puglover

    puglover Disturber of Worldviews

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2002
    Messages:
    9,643
    Location:
    Kansas
    Phelgmak (where does your name come from anyway?): I have to agree with you on the major point of your post, even if it is a strawman to begin with. Christians who say the Bible is not violent are lying. The Bible is incredibly violent, a lot of the violence ordered by God himself. Does that ruin the credibility of the Bible, or the righteousness of God? No. We're his creation, and he can set our fates to the greatest good, no matter what that involves along the way.

    Also, I think it is incredibly naive to put Becky Fisher (who may be a fruitcake, but has never actually committed an act of violence) in the same category as Osama Bin Laden (extremely violent terrorist leader) :lol:

    No, no, no, no. That's worse than making a distinction between the OT and NT God. They are both the same, and the OT serves as a look back to where our religion came from, and the nature of the God who sacrificed his Son. By no means is it outdated, or part of another religion.

    Do not suppose I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. People like to depict Jesus as some cross between Donny Osmond and a hippie. He's still the same God from the OT, and he knew the dangers of his new religion.
     
  7. Bill3000

    Bill3000 OOOH NOOOOOOO! Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2005
    Messages:
    18,464
    Location:
    Quinquagesimusermia
    Eh, I could point to Gnosticism which clearly makes the distinction between the two; in fact, two different gods.
     
  8. puglover

    puglover Disturber of Worldviews

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2002
    Messages:
    9,643
    Location:
    Kansas
    Am I a Gnostic?
     
  9. Bill3000

    Bill3000 OOOH NOOOOOOO! Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2005
    Messages:
    18,464
    Location:
    Quinquagesimusermia
    No, but your dog is!
     
  10. Phlegmak

    Phlegmak Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2005
    Messages:
    10,966
    Location:
    Nowhere
    It comes from the video game Starflight.

    Your latter sentences are mostly saying, "god did it and what god does is ok. It doesn't matter what he orders or says. It's just automatically ok." Correct?

    Yes, they're on different scales, but the point was that Becky was proviolence. (Why'd you say Terry?)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Becky_Fischer
     
  11. skadistic

    skadistic Caomhanach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2004
    Messages:
    15,239
    Location:
    Land of Mary
    But god gave these other people hundreds of years to reform and many chances to change before god sent his killers.

    I'm in no way defending Christianity but there are starkly different reasons behind the killing in each book. There are also differences between the messages of the prophets. Jesus the original do gooder hippy wasn't a war mongering wife beating child raping mass murderer.
     
  12. -0blivion-

    -0blivion- Musically inclined

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2003
    Messages:
    1,931
    Location:
    Nottingham, UK
    Not really countering this, but I find it interesting that many muslims probably have the exact same viewpoint about their holy book and the lessons contained within - taking a step back reveals that two groups often polarised in today's media have exactly the same perspective.
     
  13. puglover

    puglover Disturber of Worldviews

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2002
    Messages:
    9,643
    Location:
    Kansas
    ? :crazyeye:

    Ah, ok.

     
  14. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2005
    Messages:
    42,787
    Location:
    Pale Blue Dot youtube=wupToqz1e2g
    Are there instances where Jesus, Paul, or the other authors of the New Testament give permission to kill people?

    That's the main problem with the Qur'an. It gives permission to kill people (and sometimes just for sins against God) and so people seek to twist those permissions into their current lives, when they want to kill someone.
     
  15. Mirc

    Mirc Not mIRC!!!

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2005
    Messages:
    15,825
    Location:
    Düsseldorf, ->Germany, E.U.
    You got me totally wrong, I actually agree with you. :p I'm not making any distinction between the supreme entities, I do believe, as a Christian, that God existed since before the beginning of time (so, obviously, he was around in the times of the Old Testament). The Old Testament indeed serves as a look back to where our religion came from. Actually, I think that's pretty much the only thing it serves as. So if there is ever any contradiction between the Old and New Testament (and there are many), the New Testament is always right. The violence in the Old Testament is a clear example of how outdated it is, considering the total anti-violence message of Christ. The Old Testament is simply kept as a history book IMO - no true Christian would use the teachings there.
     
  16. Phlegmak

    Phlegmak Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2005
    Messages:
    10,966
    Location:
    Nowhere
    Hasn't allah given the nonbelievers 1400 years to hear his good words and convert?

    Maybe Jesus wasn't those things, but Jesus isn't the only character in the Bible. For example, David, an extremely highly revered figure in Christianity and Judaism, murdered a man so he could marry his wife.
     
  17. Phlegmak

    Phlegmak Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2005
    Messages:
    10,966
    Location:
    Nowhere
    Then god in his eternal knowledge and wisdom, could have given his words to some other people and they would become the new Israel.

    Ok. How do you metaphorically cut off your own body part that "caused" you to sin? Simply stop sinning?
     
  18. puglover

    puglover Disturber of Worldviews

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2002
    Messages:
    9,643
    Location:
    Kansas
    Now that was condemned by God. You can't use that as a legitimate example.

    Wow, sounds easy doesn't it? What happens as soon as neighboring kingdoms decide they want to take this holy kingdom and raze it to the ground?

    Typically, the interpretation is that if you are tempted to sin because of something you do (the company you keep, the way you behave, where you go), you should get rid of it. Throw away temptations without remorse is the message Jesus is trying to portray.
     
  19. Hitti-Litti

    Hitti-Litti Deity

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2006
    Messages:
    3,767
    Becky Fisher wants to make killing machines out of Christian children, Osama Bin Laden wants Muslim people to attack against Christians. What's the big difference? Iraqi people are as innocent as Americans.
     
  20. Phlegmak

    Phlegmak Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2005
    Messages:
    10,966
    Location:
    Nowhere
    Ok, fine. David, Joshua, and Saul still went to war very often.

    Well, he's god, isn't he? Can't he protect his chosen people? He could simply put the notion in the head of the enemy ruler, "You know, I just don't feel like invading Jerusalem."

    Alright then.
     

Share This Page