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"Islam is violent! Just read the Koran to see for yourself!"

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Phlegmak, Sep 10, 2007.

  1. Bill3000

    Bill3000 OOOH NOOOOOOO! Supporter

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    How the hell does liberalism not permit violence? I can simply point to liberalism's [wiki]right of revolution[/wiki] that states otherwise.
     
  2. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    Thank God/Allah. If they did, we'd face 1.2 billion fanatical killers.
     
  3. Phlegmak

    Phlegmak Deity

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    Maybe. And the Christians don't follow their genocidal god correctly either, and we're all better off because of it.

    Actually, there's another point which I forgot to make earlier.

    Since these religions are inherently violent, and violence=bad, then the entire world and the entirety of human history will be stuck with some nutjob coming around every once in a while committing some horrible atrocity, and saying he's perfectly justified because of his religion.
     
  4. Mirc

    Mirc Not mIRC!!!

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    I doubt that was his point. What we (or at least I) are am trying to say is that Christianity is NOT inherently violent, and that the Christian God is not genocidal by any means. :)
     
  5. Phlegmak

    Phlegmak Deity

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    But then we come back to the point of why would the Christian god order genocide in the Old Testament? It's the same god and the same religion.
     
  6. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    I think the easiest solution is that God was not actually speaking through that prophet at that time, but that the prophet was using Theocratic power in order to enact political change. There are, of course, a massive number of these examples even in modern society.

    I think the worst answer is the simple "God's ways are mysterious". I mean, it works, but it's not the least bit satisfying.

    My main complaint, though, is that it's included as precedent: God might tell you through a prophet to stab babies. And the Bible clearly presents the precedent as a viable one.
     
  7. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    So anybody who obeys a prophet, thinking the prophet talks for God, is not only morally allowed but obligated to do what the prophet says ... not matter how seemingly despicable?
     
  8. Red Door

    Red Door Man of Mayhem

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    The Christian God killed all first-borns of Egypt, allowed Israelis to kill many tribes in the Holy Land, etc.
     
  9. puglover

    puglover Disturber of Worldviews

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    There's a difference between a nut who thinks he's talking to God, and a prophet who we can trust. Remember that the prophets of the Old Testament communicated with God as leaders of their tribes, with all the miraculous signs that communication brings. We can't follow every nutjob who claims to be talking to God, but if someone like Jesus, who has fufilled prophecy, deserves to be listened to.
     
  10. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    I agree.

    I think Islam is an evil system of faith. I think that Muslims are people, and prone towards all the goodness and foibles of everyone else.
     
  11. Mirc

    Mirc Not mIRC!!!

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    No, the Christian God did not "allow" the Israelis to do any of this, as in "give them permission" - the Jewish holy book, the Old Testament, was, like many other ideologies were, used by the heads of the people as a pretext for their actions. Again, you're holding God responsible for what some people did thousands of years before Jesus' founding of Christianity.
     
  12. Heretic_Cata

    Heretic_Cata We're gonna live forever

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    People are so pessimistic nowadays. Some violence in a religion doesn't make the religion violent.

    But in the same way some good in a religion doesn't make it good either. :lol:

    It's all in the people.

    We must weed out the people doing bad stuff and then hiding behind religions ... and kill them. :D Or judge them at least.
     
  13. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    That's then a system based 100% on gullibility.

    Just because a guy can perform 'supernatural'-type miracles, should I listen to him when he says to stab babies? His ability to impress me is merely a function of my ignorance and his ability to either be impressive or convince people I trust that he's impressive.

    Think of all the people you know who've been tricked by charlatans or even stage magicians into thinking that there were actual magical powers involved (and that such a person is a prophet). They'd be advised to obey, no matter the moral consequences.

    The Old Man on the Mountain used to bring up young men to his castle, transport them to "Heaven" (to show that he was a prophet) and then they'd go murder people for him. This chicanery can only work in a system that says "hey, stab babies if the prophet tells you to!"

    edit: here's a question. What miracles did Samuel allegedly perform that should sway a mass of people sufficiently that stabbing babies is recommended? Prophecies don't really count, because we've both seen how people selectively believe prophecies, even when it's obviously a farce.
     
  14. cubsfan6506

    cubsfan6506 Got u

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    As opposed to god who just kills them all in a flood.
     
  15. Red Door

    Red Door Man of Mayhem

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    Same God Mirc. Not only did he kill all first-born males of Egypt, he gave permission to attack the cities of Ai and Jerico and kill all the soldiers.

    And if the people used this book for pretext as their actions, don't you think that Muslim Extremists do the same thing?

    BTW, Jesus did not found Christianity, Jesus was a Jew. His apostles founded Christianity. But, it's the same God as the Jews worship.
     
  16. Mirc

    Mirc Not mIRC!!!

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    The problem isn't in the fact that it's the same God - read below.

    God killed all first-born males of Egypt? No, he didn't, the people performed the atrocities! Don't you realize there is a difference between the people that perform the action and the deity in who's name these actions are performed?

    Yes, of course I do think they do! But this doesn't mean that the violence in Islam is equal to the violence in Christianity. :crazyeye:

    Wrong, the Christian Church was founded by his apostles. Christianity, and its system of beliefs were founded by Christ.
     
  17. puglover

    puglover Disturber of Worldviews

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    No. God did kill all the firstborns of Egypt. He sent the angel of death to destroy them as punishment for not letting Israel out of captivity. And he also directly ordered the destruction of Jericho and Ai. You don't sound like you are familiar with the stories.

    This is correct, however. I must give you credit for that. :)
     
  18. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    Hey, if the Big Guy wants to kill people, who am I to gainsay Him*?

    It's the bit where he tells his people to do His killing. I figure, let him do His own killing! I'm a 'small government' kinda guy, why set up an infrastructure for doing something that God can bootstrap on His own!

    *Course, I'm gonna put a lightning rod on my property, though.
     
  19. Red Door

    Red Door Man of Mayhem

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    Yes, it is the same God.



    Currently, it's not, and that's great for Christianity. Christians used to do a lot of violent stuff too. Hopefully, extremist Islam will die out too.

    Jesus said himself he was not on Earth to destroy the Old Ways, but to fulfill them.
     
  20. Mirc

    Mirc Not mIRC!!!

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    I think you got me a bit wrong here. I'm not saying that according to the Old Testament, God didn't kill the male firstborns of Egypt. I'm saying that I do not believe the factual accuracy of the Old Testament, but I do believe the accuracy of the New One. :) As I said earlier in another thread, I believe Judaism was obviously a step forward, but I also believe stories such as the Angel of Death coming to kill all male firstborns of Egypt are intended to scare people. That's the main difference between the Old and New Testament.

    Edit: BTW, I did read all the Bible, and I am very familiar with the story (exactly analyzing the Old and New Testament got me to these conclusions). You got me wrong, because I didn't say the Old Testament doesn't say so, I meant what I explained above. ^^ That's all. :)

    Not all of Christianity though. Again, you're confusing the church with Christianity as a whole. For example, God isn't responsible for what the Conquistadors did in South America... The difference is that the Christian God condemns such practices, while Islam does not (they were pagans, aka nonbelievers). And I'm wrong when I say "the church", as there is more than one church - I have yet to see the (Edit: Corrected, partial name and messed up link) Chalcedonian Protestant Syriac Church burn someone on the stake, or a Coptic Orthodox declare that whoever does not follow their religion deserves dying.
     

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