Dirk1302
Deity
Monty down. Seeing his starting pos makes me almost happy with our own.
Spoiler :
Isolated emperor start
- Thread starter Snaaty
- Start date
@ all:
So 5 out of 6 players have reached the next milestone (Monty down).
I´m going to make a summary of all games submitted directly after Lilnev´s game (please include save this time) is in.
I´m going to compare:
- Time of war (when did you go far war?)
- Units used in this war
- Overall losses
- Duration of war
What I hoped for me to see with this war were the various possibilities of units and windows of opportunity to go to an medival / late medival war. Since most players used different troops at different times, lots to be seen and learned
...
The next (and last) round will be the final attemt to go domination (=invasion of big conti) It will contain again two checkpoints, one before you declare on the other conti and the final one one turn before you reach dom (or, when not so lucky, at the point you surrendered).
Feel free to play the last round already now (I´m almost done with gearing up for the last war), because on Monday I will write the summup of this round and start the final one. The final round will already close on Wensday and will be the longest (concerning play-duration) by far. You can already write some short spoilers and hints concerning endgame, but please do wait until my summup of the last round is done before posting any endgame saves and full summaries of endgame
...
@ shyuhe:
A´m I right and you will submit your saves of this round (Monty´s beating) and the writeup soon
?
So 5 out of 6 players have reached the next milestone (Monty down).
I´m going to make a summary of all games submitted directly after Lilnev´s game (please include save this time) is in.
I´m going to compare:
- Time of war (when did you go far war?)
- Units used in this war
- Overall losses
- Duration of war
What I hoped for me to see with this war were the various possibilities of units and windows of opportunity to go to an medival / late medival war. Since most players used different troops at different times, lots to be seen and learned
...
The next (and last) round will be the final attemt to go domination (=invasion of big conti) It will contain again two checkpoints, one before you declare on the other conti and the final one one turn before you reach dom (or, when not so lucky, at the point you surrendered).
Feel free to play the last round already now (I´m almost done with gearing up for the last war), because on Monday I will write the summup of this round and start the final one. The final round will already close on Wensday and will be the longest (concerning play-duration) by far. You can already write some short spoilers and hints concerning endgame, but please do wait until my summup of the last round is done before posting any endgame saves and full summaries of endgame
...
@ shyuhe:
A´m I right and you will submit your saves of this round (Monty´s beating) and the writeup soon
?Giaur
War Dancer
Spoiler :
edit: Personaly have not noticed the difference beetween Emperor and Immortal. Only Wonders are built faster. Maybe Archipelago. It saved my skin in my Gandhi game. I managed to found only 4 cities. But archipelago allowed my to explore new lands. And maybe Washington due to Exp/Cha and his UU.
edit2: expansive allows to construct Stonehenge with chopping. And Stonehenge increases happiness. There will be problems with maintanance and civic upkeep. This will be the biggest chalenge.
Well, I am not sure how it went with rules, But I just land on main continent.
Problem is, I did not declare.
Washington declare on me, probably at Toky request, So, I desided to send my absolute units to him and get some Beachhead on main continent.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/84898/Snaaty_AD-1816.CivWarlordsSave
Problem is, I did not declare.
Washington declare on me, probably at Toky request, So, I desided to send my absolute units to him and get some Beachhead on main continent.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/84898/Snaaty_AD-1816.CivWarlordsSave
Dirk1302
Deity
^^I bribed Toky to declare. It worked very good in this game, both Toky and Monty had nothing left when i arrived. It was risky though but i guessed that any cities taken by Toky would be razed so i just settle there. If not, Toky is the next victim anyway.
@ all:
I´m going to war now
@ Multineer:
No problem with rules... (feel free to play as you like, as long as you go for dom
)
@ Dirk:
Haven´t looked at the saves yet, but reading out of Multineers post: Cool idea of bribing Toku in the war... ...I hadn´t thought about this strat... ...main 2 reasons why I sped up my war that fast were:
1. Monty not having rifles
2. nobody having astro to disturbe me (or threaten Monty and therefore be able to vassalize him)
I´m going to war now
@ Multineer:
No problem with rules... (feel free to play as you like, as long as you go for dom
)@ Dirk:
Haven´t looked at the saves yet, but reading out of Multineers post: Cool idea of bribing Toku in the war... ...I hadn´t thought about this strat... ...main 2 reasons why I sped up my war that fast were:
1. Monty not having rifles
2. nobody having astro to disturbe me (or threaten Monty and therefore be able to vassalize him)
shyuhe
Deity
My write-up of the Monty war:
Spoiler :
Dirk1302
Deity
I'm almost ready to go:
Spoiler :
Liberalism to start of war:
And the war:
Overall, the two things that have really struck me this game: HR with cheap warriors can be really strong. And, drafting is much better than I previously thought. These ideas work well together, too -- for an investment of 45 hammers (3 warriors), you gain the ability to convert ~20 food + 30 gold (upkeep for the warriors) into 110 hammers. Wow! I think the previous few times I've tried non-emergency drafting, the 3 angry faces seemed like too much. I just wasn't using enough cheap garrison troops.
peace,
lilnev
Spoiler :
And the war:
Spoiler :
Overall, the two things that have really struck me this game: HR with cheap warriors can be really strong. And, drafting is much better than I previously thought. These ideas work well together, too -- for an investment of 45 hammers (3 warriors), you gain the ability to convert ~20 food + 30 gold (upkeep for the warriors) into 110 hammers. Wow! I think the previous few times I've tried non-emergency drafting, the 3 angry faces seemed like too much. I just wasn't using enough cheap garrison troops.
peace,
lilnev
On the next game: Immortal is good, though I don't promise to win. Depends a lot on the terrain and the neighbors. Emperor is also fine, though perhaps with an above-average map difficulty. I'd rather avoid wacky rules variants, although I wouldn't mind an unusual map. Cold highlands? Tropical snaky continents?
peace,
lilnev
peace,
lilnev
@ lilnev:
thanks for the saves
...
@ all:
so this round is closed now... ...i´m really amazed how different live developed on the big conti (concerning tech-speed powerhouse civ and overall development)
I will try do to the summary of the Monty turns ASAP so we can officially open the next round
thanks for the saves
...
@ all:
so this round is closed now... ...i´m really amazed how different live developed on the big conti (concerning tech-speed powerhouse civ and overall development)
I will try do to the summary of the Monty turns ASAP so we can officially open the next round
Giaur
War Dancer
Spoiler :
P.S. I try work on my mood, cause I do not want lost this game
Post lib summary:
After liberalism, all 6 players have continued the game. All managed to fulfill the next task, which was taking down Monty:
Giaur:
Start of war: 1640 AD
End of war: 1814 AD
Duration: 49 turn
Time lib to war: 61 turns
Troops (when war started): cav: 7, rifles: 17, cannons: 3, grens: 2
Upgrades: inf
Enemies faced: mainly rifles, knights, trebs and catas
Losses: cav: 5, cannons: 5, gren: 2, inf: 2
Navy: gallons: 9, frigates: 4
Politics: no wars
Overall situation: Toku and Cyrus (Rosevelt is his vassal) are the main powers on the big island
Tech situation: equal in tech with the to top dogs (Toku and Cyrus)
…
Mutineer:
Start of war: 1535 AD
End of war: 1740 AD
Duration: 41 turns
Time lib to war: 52
Troops (when war started): rifles: 25, trebs: 5, catas: 3
Upgrades: grens, cannons
Enemies faced: mainly rifles, grens, trebs and catas
Losses: rifles: 22, grens: 4, cannons:4, trebs: 8, catas: 3
Navy: galleons: 5, frigates: 2
Politics: War with Rosevelt when war started, war with Toku when war ended
Overall situation: Cyrus (Ragnar is his vassal) is the main power on the big island
Tech situation: backwards compared to Cyrus
…
Dirk:
Start of war: 1610 AD
End of war: 1675 AD
Duration: 13 turns
Time lib to war: 56 turns
Troops (when war started): rifles: 12, cannons: 21, grens: 5
Upgrades: non
Enemies faced: mainly longbows, catas, trebs, crossbows, muskets, maces
Losses: cannons: 3
Navy: gallons: 10
Politics: bribed Toku to war with Monty before attacking (great idea and maybe the reason for Monty being so backwards)
Overall situation: Ragnar (Brennus and Rosevelt are his vassal) is the main power on the big island
Tech situation: a little back compared to the top dogs (Ragnar)
…
Shyuhe (no save submitted, so some data’s are missing):
Start of war: 1505 AD
End of war: not known
Duration: I think long, because of the upgrades
Time lib to war: 27 turns
Troops (when war started): muskets: 4, trebs: 5
Upgrades: cannons, later artillery
Enemies faced: longbows + x, later rifles + x
Losses: not known
Navy: only gallons
Politics: no wars
Overall situation: Cyrus (Rosevelt and Ragnar are his vassal) is the main power on the big island
Tech situation: not known
…
Lilnev:
Start of war: 1565 AD
End of war: 1640 AD
Duration: 15 turns
Time lib to war: 47 turns
Troops (when war started): rifles: 11, muskets: 7, trebs: 14
Upgrades: trebs to cannons
Enemies faced: mainly longbows, catas, trebs, crossbows, muskets, maces, later cav and rifles
Losses: rifles 6, cannons 3, gallons 3
Navy: gallons: 10, frigates: 2
Politics: War with Ragnar and Brennus
Overall situation: Brennus and Cyrus (Rosevelt is his vassal) are the main powers on the big island
Tech situation: equal in tech with the to top dogs (Brennus and Cyrus)
…
Snaaty (me):
Start of war: 1470 AD
End of war: 1570 AD
Duration: 17 turns
Time lib to war: 27 turns
Troops (when war started): cav: 14, muskets: 6, trebs: 4 (attack was in two waves, initial attack contained only 8 cav and 4 tebs
Upgrades: none
Enemies faced: mainly longbows, catas, trebs, crossbows, muskets, maces
Losses: cav: 2, muskets: 1, trebs: 1
Navy: 4 gallons
Politics: no wars
Overall situation: Cyrus (no vassals so far, but Rosevelt and Ragnar will become his vassals) is the main power on the big island
Tech situation: equal in tech compared to Cyrus
…
Fazit:
All players, that declared war on Monty before 1600 AD were able to start the attack when facing longbows with their invasion force. All attacks that lasted into 1600 had to face rifles (and cavs, Lilnev). There are two exceptions:
Muti, who had to face rifles already in 1535 AD (which is extremely bad luck compared to the other games)
Dirk who only fought longbows after 1600 AD… …perhaps it’s your trading policy, perhaps it’s only luck (like Ragnar evolving into the top dog, all other have to deal with Cyrus or a Cyrus/X combo), but as you have mentioned yourself, the AI´s in your save (especially Monty) are really backwards (btw. no high sea levels on this map, everything is standard)
…
Seems like Muti was the one with the worst luck:
Not only did Toku declare on him. On his big conti Cyrus ran of the fastest compared to all other games
In addition, Muti had to face rifles when attacking Monty in 1535 AD, which is very strange (the AI seems to add up a strange and commonly unknown diff level on Muti´s game...) compared to the other games
…
What I find especially fascinating with this game is the fact, that in more or less every game, the big conti developed different. In one case even completely different (=Ragnar is the main power) then in the “average” (=Cyrus or Cyrus + x growing into the main power) case.
…
Dirk had the fastest war with 13 turns.
Snaaty (me) had the earliest was, already ending in 1570 AD.
Shyule and Snaaty (me) had the shortes war preps after lib was in (27 turns each)
Dirk had the fewest losses with only 3 units lost
Most of the players (3) used rifles as prime attacking force. Two player used cannons, one used cavs
...
In the end, this all means, that there are different windows of opportunity for doing a midgame war and therefore different times and different units used (this are good news I tink)
…
Next round:
Next will be the invasion on the big conti. It will be again divided in two parts:
Fist part:
Warfare preps up to one turn before declaring (or something similar, for example before you invade you “top dog”
Second part:
One turns before the war is over (and the game hopefully won)
...
The last round will close on Wednesday. Please submit again both saves, even if you should play in one go
IMPORTANTE NOTE:
There are again no rules concerning this war, so feel free to do it ASAP, or delay it (you can again nuke everybody if you feel like it)
Feel free to correct any mistakes if I have gotten something wrong
After liberalism, all 6 players have continued the game. All managed to fulfill the next task, which was taking down Monty:
Giaur:
Start of war: 1640 AD
End of war: 1814 AD
Duration: 49 turn
Time lib to war: 61 turns
Troops (when war started): cav: 7, rifles: 17, cannons: 3, grens: 2
Upgrades: inf
Enemies faced: mainly rifles, knights, trebs and catas
Losses: cav: 5, cannons: 5, gren: 2, inf: 2
Navy: gallons: 9, frigates: 4
Politics: no wars
Overall situation: Toku and Cyrus (Rosevelt is his vassal) are the main powers on the big island
Tech situation: equal in tech with the to top dogs (Toku and Cyrus)
…
Mutineer:
Start of war: 1535 AD
End of war: 1740 AD
Duration: 41 turns
Time lib to war: 52
Troops (when war started): rifles: 25, trebs: 5, catas: 3
Upgrades: grens, cannons
Enemies faced: mainly rifles, grens, trebs and catas
Losses: rifles: 22, grens: 4, cannons:4, trebs: 8, catas: 3
Navy: galleons: 5, frigates: 2
Politics: War with Rosevelt when war started, war with Toku when war ended
Overall situation: Cyrus (Ragnar is his vassal) is the main power on the big island
Tech situation: backwards compared to Cyrus
…
Dirk:
Start of war: 1610 AD
End of war: 1675 AD
Duration: 13 turns
Time lib to war: 56 turns
Troops (when war started): rifles: 12, cannons: 21, grens: 5
Upgrades: non
Enemies faced: mainly longbows, catas, trebs, crossbows, muskets, maces
Losses: cannons: 3
Navy: gallons: 10
Politics: bribed Toku to war with Monty before attacking (great idea and maybe the reason for Monty being so backwards)
Overall situation: Ragnar (Brennus and Rosevelt are his vassal) is the main power on the big island
Tech situation: a little back compared to the top dogs (Ragnar)
…
Shyuhe (no save submitted, so some data’s are missing):
Start of war: 1505 AD
End of war: not known
Duration: I think long, because of the upgrades
Time lib to war: 27 turns
Troops (when war started): muskets: 4, trebs: 5
Upgrades: cannons, later artillery
Enemies faced: longbows + x, later rifles + x
Losses: not known
Navy: only gallons
Politics: no wars
Overall situation: Cyrus (Rosevelt and Ragnar are his vassal) is the main power on the big island
Tech situation: not known
…
Lilnev:
Start of war: 1565 AD
End of war: 1640 AD
Duration: 15 turns
Time lib to war: 47 turns
Troops (when war started): rifles: 11, muskets: 7, trebs: 14
Upgrades: trebs to cannons
Enemies faced: mainly longbows, catas, trebs, crossbows, muskets, maces, later cav and rifles
Losses: rifles 6, cannons 3, gallons 3
Navy: gallons: 10, frigates: 2
Politics: War with Ragnar and Brennus
Overall situation: Brennus and Cyrus (Rosevelt is his vassal) are the main powers on the big island
Tech situation: equal in tech with the to top dogs (Brennus and Cyrus)
…
Snaaty (me):
Start of war: 1470 AD
End of war: 1570 AD
Duration: 17 turns
Time lib to war: 27 turns
Troops (when war started): cav: 14, muskets: 6, trebs: 4 (attack was in two waves, initial attack contained only 8 cav and 4 tebs
Upgrades: none
Enemies faced: mainly longbows, catas, trebs, crossbows, muskets, maces
Losses: cav: 2, muskets: 1, trebs: 1
Navy: 4 gallons
Politics: no wars
Overall situation: Cyrus (no vassals so far, but Rosevelt and Ragnar will become his vassals) is the main power on the big island
Tech situation: equal in tech compared to Cyrus
…
Fazit:
All players, that declared war on Monty before 1600 AD were able to start the attack when facing longbows with their invasion force. All attacks that lasted into 1600 had to face rifles (and cavs, Lilnev). There are two exceptions:
Muti, who had to face rifles already in 1535 AD (which is extremely bad luck compared to the other games)
Dirk who only fought longbows after 1600 AD… …perhaps it’s your trading policy, perhaps it’s only luck (like Ragnar evolving into the top dog, all other have to deal with Cyrus or a Cyrus/X combo), but as you have mentioned yourself, the AI´s in your save (especially Monty) are really backwards (btw. no high sea levels on this map, everything is standard)
…
Seems like Muti was the one with the worst luck:
Not only did Toku declare on him. On his big conti Cyrus ran of the fastest compared to all other games
In addition, Muti had to face rifles when attacking Monty in 1535 AD, which is very strange (the AI seems to add up a strange and commonly unknown diff level on Muti´s game...) compared to the other games
…
What I find especially fascinating with this game is the fact, that in more or less every game, the big conti developed different. In one case even completely different (=Ragnar is the main power) then in the “average” (=Cyrus or Cyrus + x growing into the main power) case.
…
Dirk had the fastest war with 13 turns.
Snaaty (me) had the earliest was, already ending in 1570 AD.
Shyule and Snaaty (me) had the shortes war preps after lib was in (27 turns each)
Dirk had the fewest losses with only 3 units lost
Most of the players (3) used rifles as prime attacking force. Two player used cannons, one used cavs
...
In the end, this all means, that there are different windows of opportunity for doing a midgame war and therefore different times and different units used (this are good news I tink
)…
Next round:
Next will be the invasion on the big conti. It will be again divided in two parts:
Fist part:
Warfare preps up to one turn before declaring (or something similar, for example before you invade you “top dog”
Second part:
One turns before the war is over (and the game hopefully won)
...
The last round will close on Wednesday. Please submit again both saves, even if you should play in one go
IMPORTANTE NOTE:
There are again no rules concerning this war, so feel free to do it ASAP, or delay it (you can again nuke everybody if you feel like it)
Feel free to correct any mistakes if I have gotten something wrong
Well, I Dow 1535?
MOunty had riffles for about 10 turns I think, from the look on power graph.
In my save he managed to get riffles befor 1500, and i did not traded with him at all.
@ Mutineer:
sorry, my mistake... ...forgot to ad you to the exceptions list with Monty getting rifles that early in your game (only added Dirk for not facing rifles after 1600 AD)
...
hm, summs up to:
"
Seems like Muti was the one with the worst luck:
Not only did Toku declare on him. On his big conti Cyrus ran of the fastest compared to all other games
"
In addition, Muti had to face rifles when attacking Monty in 1535 AD, which is very strange (the AI seems to add up a strange and commonly unknown diff level on Muti´s game...) compared to the other games
...
Would be great if you would still try and manage to battle your way to a domination victory
sorry, my mistake... ...forgot to ad you to the exceptions list with Monty getting rifles that early in your game (only added Dirk for not facing rifles after 1600 AD)
...
hm, summs up to:
"
Seems like Muti was the one with the worst luck:
Not only did Toku declare on him. On his big conti Cyrus ran of the fastest compared to all other games
"
In addition, Muti had to face rifles when attacking Monty in 1535 AD, which is very strange (the AI seems to add up a strange and commonly unknown diff level on Muti´s game...) compared to the other games
...
Would be great if you would still try and manage to battle your way to a domination victory
Hi all, thanks for posting a very well documented comparison game, I am enjoying it alot.
I haven't got my warlords disc yet, hopefully I will get it in time to join the next one, so you will have someone who loses hopelesly to compare with.
One thing that strikes me the most is that how much diplomacy and trade has effected how the other civilisations are doing, I am assuming you are all running the same ai. It seems mutineer has the worst of it, is this because as snatty suggested he traded education? Dirk seems like he has manipulated the ai to aid him in his war effort, could I have some more infomation on how you did that plaese, Toky doesn't usuall want to give anything up.
Maybe as diplomacy is so important more infomation on this could be added to the summaries. Sorry if I'm asking too much as you are already doing a great job.
Thanks
I haven't got my warlords disc yet, hopefully I will get it in time to join the next one, so you will have someone who loses hopelesly to compare with.
One thing that strikes me the most is that how much diplomacy and trade has effected how the other civilisations are doing, I am assuming you are all running the same ai. It seems mutineer has the worst of it, is this because as snatty suggested he traded education? Dirk seems like he has manipulated the ai to aid him in his war effort, could I have some more infomation on how you did that plaese, Toky doesn't usuall want to give anything up.
Maybe as diplomacy is so important more infomation on this could be added to the summaries. Sorry if I'm asking too much as you are already doing a great job.
Thanks
Dirk1302
Deity
^^ I gifted Toky a tech when i met him for +4 forthright trade relations so it got him to pleased after a few turns (everyone was because i didn't trade with Roosevelt, worst enemy of all at that time).
Letting Toky declare on Monty was somewhat of an afterthought that did work surprisingly well.It was meant to divert Monty from teching but he also lost troops to Toky which i think was lucky. I think the strat of diverting the AI's to declare on each other and then backstabbing is a good one generally. More important i think is i watched the tech screen closely to see if Monty got PP. I figured that i should attack at that moment when he was still 2 techs from rifling. So i had time.
Letting Toky declare on Monty was somewhat of an afterthought that did work surprisingly well.It was meant to divert Monty from teching but he also lost troops to Toky which i think was lucky. I think the strat of diverting the AI's to declare on each other and then backstabbing is a good one generally. More important i think is i watched the tech screen closely to see if Monty got PP. I figured that i should attack at that moment when he was still 2 techs from rifling. So i had time.
Spoiler :
Actially I did not trade Education, I do not think my trade policies had anything to do with it.
Update.
Well, I was able to take back door domination for a long time now.
True domination, I will probably manage.
Very long story short.
Took Beach head city from Rosevelt, with infantry was easy. Grunt most of his army to dust and he agrees to Vassal to me.
Did the same with Toky and Brenus.
Just I did Vassal Brenus Cyrus prepare a huge group of Tanks+Gunship and declare. His main stack went again Roosevelt. When I vassal my vassals I gift them all mil tech I had, so Roosevelt Had mach mor epower then me at that moment. I try to help Washington to survive, but my stack were not enogth. His last city was taken and I fall back to my bichhead city.
Extrimelly annoing that my beach head city had american revolt just a turn befor America stop to exits.
Never the lesss, my beach head kill ramaining of cyrus main stack.
IN responce my south army manage to protect my vassals and actially raise all ragnar cities. I did not think I was able to hold them.
So, ragnar dead, Washington dead.
I kill cyrus army for a time and made peace for 3000 gold, to have burst in tech.
in 10 turns reopen war and now I have tech edge nad gradially killing his army and start to capture cities.
I can take back door domination any moment, not sur eI have enogth time for true domination, but his research come to practical stop.
Update.
Well, I was able to take back door domination for a long time now.
True domination, I will probably manage.
Very long story short.
Took Beach head city from Rosevelt, with infantry was easy. Grunt most of his army to dust and he agrees to Vassal to me.
Did the same with Toky and Brenus.
Just I did Vassal Brenus Cyrus prepare a huge group of Tanks+Gunship and declare. His main stack went again Roosevelt. When I vassal my vassals I gift them all mil tech I had, so Roosevelt Had mach mor epower then me at that moment. I try to help Washington to survive, but my stack were not enogth. His last city was taken and I fall back to my bichhead city.
Extrimelly annoing that my beach head city had american revolt just a turn befor America stop to exits.
Never the lesss, my beach head kill ramaining of cyrus main stack.
IN responce my south army manage to protect my vassals and actially raise all ragnar cities. I did not think I was able to hold them.
So, ragnar dead, Washington dead.
I kill cyrus army for a time and made peace for 3000 gold, to have burst in tech.
in 10 turns reopen war and now I have tech edge nad gradially killing his army and start to capture cities.
I can take back door domination any moment, not sur eI have enogth time for true domination, but his research come to practical stop.
