Israel Navy Opens Fire on Gaza Aid Flotilla II

[BurnEmDown]

"It has been argued that the barrier has been effective in preventing terrorists and suicide bombers from entering Israel from Gaza. Since 1996, virtually all suicide bombers trying to leave Gaza have detonated their charges at the barrier's crossing points or were stopped while trying to cross the barrier elsewhere.[10][11] From 1994 until 2004 only one suicide bomber originating from within the Gaza Strip successfully carried out an attack in Israel (the March 14, 2004, attack in Ashdod).[12]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_Egypt_–_Gaza_Strip_barrier

 

[Formaldehyde]

Link to video.

 

[bhsup]

As you just pointed out, the Palestinians have apparently only initiated 2 suicide bombing attacks in the past 4 years which have killed a total of 4 people, and neither seem to be the work of Hamas:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks

And it's apparently not the walls which have stopped the suicide bombings. It seems to be a change in strategy likely due to oerwhelming negative political opinion. Too bad the Isrealis can't seem to learn the same lesson. Claiming the walls were the reason is like claiming the surge worked since numerous tunnels are known to exist. Correlation =/= causation.

But you acknowledge that the 27 deaths is just nowhere near accurate now, right?

 

[dirtyparrot]

I read that the Egyptians have decided to lift their part of the blockade.

 

[Formaldehyde]

But you acknowledge that the 27 deaths is just nowhere near accurate now, right?

No, it is completely accurate as far as I know. Do you have a source with different figures for the number of people killed by rockets/mortars?

 

[BurnEmDown]

Link to video.

And you know how they build these tunnels? With supplies such as cement, metal, and other construction goods, which Israel is trying to keep away from the Hamas, but "humanitarian aid" groups want Israel to send these things into Gaza, when they don't realize that the Hamas will simply seize these supplies and use them for their own, a-humanitarian good.

Note that Israel allows construction goods to reach Gaza if humanitarian aid groups in Gaza ask for them for themselves and are making sure that the Hamas won't seize them, but the Hamas still manages to steal some of these supplies.

 

[bhsup]

No, it is completely accurate as far as I know. Do you have a source with different figures for the number of people killed by rockets/mortars?

Oh, my apologies. I didn't know you didn't count buses being blown up and bombs in market squares as death by terrorists. Never mind.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Sorry. I didn't know that you apparently didn't realize that most Israeli defenders gave up on that rhetoric long ago when the attacks ceased to exist. That they now only use the excuse that there are rocket attacks which hardly kill anybody instead. You see, most people can't rationalize deliberately mistreating millions of people and even killing thousands based on incidents which no longer occur. Most feel the need to keep their excuses up-to-date.

 

[Takhisis]

OK, you two, don't make it personal... please.

 

[BurnEmDown]

Sorry. I didn't know that you apparently didn't realize that most Israeli defenders gave up on that rhetoric long ago when the attacks ceased to exist. That they now only use the excuse that there are rocket attacks which hardly kill anybody instead. You see, most people can't rationalize deliberately mistreating millions of people and even killing thousands based on incidents which no longer occur. Most feel the need to keep their excuses up-to-date.

I didn't exactly understand what you mean here.
Do you mean that because the suicide bombings have stopped then Israel should lift the blockade? Because the blockade isn't even related to suicide bombings.

 

[Takhisis]

Then if the blockade isn't even related to the bombings why do people keep linking both and treating one as a consequence of the other?

 

[Joecoolyo]

You mean like using the obvious buzzwords like "terrorism" to try to rationalize the brutal and incessant mistreatment of the Palestinians by the Israeli government? Acts which have killed a total of 27 people over the course of 10 years?

If indiscriminately bombing civilians with mortars and rockets isn't terrorism, then I don't know what is.

And no, once again, using the term "apartheid" to quite accurately describe Israeli policy towards Palestinians isn't an exaggeration "beyond belief":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analogy

You should read your own sources, they have a pretty lengthy section called "Criticism".

In fact, it seems as though they have a whole couple of paragraphs dedicated to South African's who believe that the comparison is utter hogwash

The "real" solution is obviously for the Israelis to start acting like mensch instead of meshugenah. Until that day occurs, they will get little or no support from the international community regarding their ongoing atrocities against the Palestinians and others.

Yeah, you know what, they did start acting like mensch. A while ago. And you know what happened? They got bombed for it. Over and over again. They got bombed to point in which they had to build a freaking wall to stop the inflow of suicide bombers. And then set up a freaking blockade to make sure materials didn't go to where they would be made in rockets.

As you just pointed out, the Palestinians have apparently only initiated 2 suicide bombing attacks in the past 4 years which have killed a total of 4 people, and neither seem to be the work of Hamas:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's because of the wall, using sources such as...

"It has been argued that the barrier has been effective in preventing terrorists and suicide bombers from entering Israel from Gaza. Since 1996, virtually all suicide bombers trying to leave Gaza have detonated their charges at the barrier's crossing points or were stopped while trying to cross the barrier elsewhere.[10][11] From 1994 until 2004 only one suicide bomber originating from within the Gaza Strip successfully carried out an attack in Israel (the March 14, 2004, attack in Ashdod).[12]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_Egypt_–_Gaza_Strip_barrier

And you know how they build these tunnels? With supplies such as cement, metal, and other construction goods, which Israel is trying to keep away from the Hamas, but "humanitarian aid" groups want Israel to send these things into Gaza, when they don't realize that the Hamas will simply seize these supplies and use them for their own, a-humanitarian good.

Note that Israel allows construction goods to reach Gaza if humanitarian aid groups in Gaza ask for them for themselves and are making sure that the Hamas won't seize them, but the Hamas still manages to steal some of these supplies.

I'd also like to re-post this post.

 

[Joecoolyo]

Sorry for the double post, CFC's being slow today.

Then if the blockade isn't even related to the bombings why do people keep linking both and treating one as a consequence of the other?

The blockade is related to the rocket and mortar attacks.

The barrier is related to the suicide bombings.

 

[BurnEmDown]

Then if the blockade isn't even related to the bombings why do people keep linking both and treating one as a consequence of the other?

The blockade are related to rocket bombings, not suicide bombings. The blockade's two main goals involve rocket bombings:
1 - Block the Hamas' access to weapons and weapon-making materials, or things such as construction materials which would help them in acquiring said weapons or weapon-making materials.
2 - Reducing the Hamas' influence over the Gaza Strip.

Obviously number 2 isn't working, but it doesn't matter. Number 1 is working, for example two Iranian ships have been caught during the blockade that tried to smuggle many tons of weapons, bombs, missiles, grenades, etc.
If the blockade wasn't imposed not only these two ships wouldn't have been stopped, but the fact that there is a blockade is a deterrence to anyone who'd like the Hamas to acquire weapons, without the blockade these two ships would have been nothing compared to the amount of ships that would help the Hamas.

The rocket attacks against Israel which are occurring on a daily basis and cause minimum casualties aren't the cause of the blockade, they only serve to legalize it. Without such rocket attacks Israel wouldn't be considered to be in an armed conflict against the Hamas, and thus a blockade wouldn't be legal against them.

The blockade's cause is not to stop the few rockets that are currently being fired on Israel and cause minimum casualties, the blockade's cause is to stop bigger, stronger rockets which can reach farther and would be fired more frequently, from reaching the hands of the Hamas and being used against Israel.

 

[Takhisis]

Sorry for the double post, CFC's being slow today.



The blockade is related to the rocket and mortar attacks.

The barrier is related to the suicide bombings.

The blockade are related to rocket bombings, not suicide bombings. The blockade's two main goals involve rocket bombings:
1 - Block the Hamas' access to weapons and weapon-making materials, or things such as construction materials which would help them in acquiring said weapons or weapon-making materials.
2 - Reducing the Hamas' influence over the Gaza Strip.

Obviously number 2 isn't working, but it doesn't matter. Number 1 is working, for example two Iranian ships have been caught during the blockade that tried to smuggle many tons of weapons, bombs, missiles, grenades, etc.
If the blockade wasn't imposed not only these two ships wouldn't have been stopped, but the fact that there is a blockade is a deterrence to anyone who'd like the Hamas to acquire weapons, without the blockade these two ships would have been nothing compared to the amount of ships that would help the Hamas.

The rocket attacks against Israel which are occurring on a daily basis and cause minimum casualties aren't the cause of the blockade, they only serve to legalize it. Without such rocket attacks Israel wouldn't be considered to be in an armed conflict against the Hamas, and thus a blockade wouldn't be legal against them.

The blockade's cause is not to stop the few rockets that are currently being fired on Israel and cause minimum casualties, the blockade's cause is to stop bigger, stronger rockets which can reach farther and would be fired more frequently, from reaching the hands of the Hamas and being used against Israel.

I know that, lads. It was a rethorical question aimed at some people (you know who) that insist on lumping everything together... have I mentioned that I want Hamas stopped and just think this is not the way to do it?

 

[BurnEmDown]

Could you tell me what do you think is the best way to stop them? I might be able to convince you otherwise.
Most people tend to say that winning the hearts and minds of the people of Gaza is the best way, to stop all action against Gaza and thus make the Hamas' attacks against Israel seem unreasonable to the people of Gaza.
I think this might be a good way to stop them too, but the problem is that the people of Israel will then think "hey, why is my government not doing anything about the people attacking my fellow civilians?". It will be a political suicide to any government to do this, and with the fact that Hamas fire might also intensify due to them getting stronger weapons much easier, it will also be quite risky.

 

[Formaldehyde]

If indiscriminately bombing civilians with mortars and rockets isn't terrorism, then I don't know what is.

The points you seem to be missing is that it is practiced by an incredibly small number of people and hardly anybody is actually affected by it. The "victims" are typically hardcore Israelis who live in Kibbutzes right along the border who do anything they can to incite any reaction from the Palestinians, so they can continue this brutal policy of apartheid against the Palestinians.

You should read your own sources, they have a pretty lengthy section called "Criticism".

Gee, what a surprise. But for some odd reason, you don't see any of them claiming:

it is using obvious buzz words that have bad connotations and applying them to a situation that they really don't apply to, as to exaggerate it beyond belief.

Emphasis mine.

Now do you? Instead, you see citations like this from the Israeli human rights organization B'Tselem:

"Israel has created in the Occupied Territories a regime of separation based on discrimination, applying two separate systems of law in the same area and basing the rights of individuals on their nationality. This regime is the only one of its kind in the world, and is reminiscent of distasteful regimes from the past, such as the apartheid regime in South Africa." B'Tselem, Land Grab: Israel's settlement Policy in the West Bank, Jerusalem, May 2002.

Or how about:

Ehud Barak, defence minister of Israel, who said that a failure to make peace with the Palestinians would leave either a state with no Jewish majority or an "apartheid" regime.

Or ex-President Jimmy Carter, who said that Israel's apartheid policies are "worse than South Africa's"?

"When Israel does occupy this territory deep within the West Bank, and connects the 200-or-so settlements with each other, with a road, and then prohibits the Palestinians from using that road, or in many cases even crossing the road, this perpetrates even worse instances of apartness, or apartheid, than we witnessed even in South Africa."

Carter said his new book, "Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid" was meant to spark U.S. discussion of Israeli policies. "The hope is that my book will at least stimulate a debate, which has not existed in this country. There's never been any debate on this issue, of any significance."

Or the Israeli poet, Yitzhak Laor, who said essentionally the same thing: Israel's apartheid is worse than South Africa's.

The system preserving this apartheid is more ruthless than that seen in South Africa, where the black were a labor force and could therefore also make a living. It is equipped with the lie of being "temporary." Occasionally, Israel's indifference comes up with allegations against the Palestinians.

In fact, it seems as though they have a whole couple of paragraphs dedicated to South African's who believe that the comparison is utter hogwash

Perhaps you missed the fact that the government of South Africa disagrees with your assertions

We call upon the Israeli government to cease their activities that are reminiscent of apartheid forced removals and resume negotiations immediately.

 

[asbestos]

The blockade's cause is not to stop the few rockets that are currently being fired on Israel and cause minimum casualties, the blockade's cause is to stop bigger, stronger rockets which can reach farther and would be fired more frequently, from reaching the hands of the Hamas and being used against Israel.

Then why are honey and livestock not allowed in? Clerical error?

 

[Takhisis]

Could you tell me what do you think is the best way to stop them? I might be able to convince you otherwise.
Most people tend to say that winning the hearts and minds of the people of Gaza is the best way, to stop all action against Gaza and thus make the Hamas' attacks against Israel seem unreasonable to the people of Gaza.
I think this might be a good way to stop them too, but the problem is that the people of Israel will then think "hey, why is my government not doing anything about the people attacking my fellow civilians?". It will be a political suicide to any government to do this, and with the fact that Hamas fire might also intensify due to them getting stronger weapons much easier, it will also be quite risky.

Ever tried Gandhi-style pacifism? It works. The point is, how much are you¹ willing to sacrifice? Are Israelis willing to accept a state that isn't just for pure Jews? Are the Arab nations² willing to accept that not destroying Israel isn't necessarily the same as the end of the world?
Are both sides willing -and capable- of behaving like adults?

Also, this bloke has a point:

Then why are honey and livestock not allowed in? Clerical error?

Do you really need to stop livestock from entering Gaza? That is nothing other than punishment.
__________________________________
§1 not you personally
§2: Iran is not an Arab nation

 

[asbestos]

Do you really need to stop livestock from entering Gaza? That is nothing other than punishment.

I can't even imagine where inside a cow an RPG-7 would be hidden.